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Pure speculation. And yet this is exactly the kind of thing that people are hanging their hats on when saying that some "majority" thinks one thing or another. Can we at least stop with the idea that any one of us knows what the majority believes?

There's also the recurring complaint of not discussing plans for the exact plan of how the whole girls thing will work, but when the magazine starts talking about that subject suddenly it's too much on the plan for girls. there are times when I feel like the point of this forum is for people to complain.

I'm actually glad to hear they are publishing a separate handbook for girls. They more separation between the two sexes, the better. People have already been pushing too hard to fully integrate the two into a co-ed program; knowing they will have distinct handbooks is a sign that at least on some level, the folks at National realize the mistake that would be. And yes, I do acknowledge the fact that some might not agree with my perspective, but clearly somebody in the publishing wing of National does, and that can only be a good thing if you ask me.

Im getting more than a little tired of hearing the 'it's all lies" refrain. I have been hearing Scouters argue for girls in Scouting since I returned to Scouting almost a decade ago. I argued against it until the last 2-3 years. So this change has come from within, the drum beat has been steady and growing louder for some time. Maybe it has not been the call from the LDS community (though I know many that support it), it has been loud and growing in the other 80% of Scouting. Is it unanimous? Clearly not. Is it even the majority? I cannot tell you. But it has been a vocal and growing comm

If they did one book with combined photos of boys and girls, the complaints here would be the same. I'm honestly surprised that there isn't more support for separate books from the single-gender-scouting crowd. This supports the idea of separate troops entirely, doesn't it? A single merged book looks more like co-ed scouting.

Life's tough as a pioneer! What you need is an optimal initial strategy based on the numbers of 2nd-4th graders, broken down by sex, in your pack. National doesn't have that. More importantly, National has no clue about factors that determine the success of your dens. All they would know is that each adult leader cleared a background check and they (or someone using their myscouting account) took some online training ... just enough to improve BSA's odds of a determination of due diligence in the event of litigation. National has no clue if this girl and three other boys are the best of f

I can accept that definition. Surbaugh could just as easily say that keeping girls out of BSA has popular support. Instead of asserting popularity, I would prefer to have him honestly discuss the reality of BSA's declining membership and ask for unity and support to fix it and thereby save the movement we all love, even if some fixes may not be desirable by all. But no - we get repeated deceptions and insulting manipulations from this guy. I know - too much to ask.

Names do matter, and they can matter to parents. When teaching second grade, I once got an angry phone call from a parent who noticed her daughter had been writing a nickname on her papers instead of her given name (she was using the first three letters of her 8-letter name). She was only allowed to use her given name. I thought it was ridiculous, but there it was. As a parent, if I found out by accident that my kid had chosen a name meant to change his identity and adults were going along with it without mentioning it to me, I'd be pretty upset. Deciding that you have no gender (what doe

The answer is simple. Because Johnny asked them to. The message to the Scouts isn't about gender identity. The message is about supporting their friend and fellow Scout. Respectfully - I think many are overthinking this. This is simply a question about how do we as Scouters support youth who are going through their own struggles about who they are as young adults. For this young person it was gender identity, but it could just as easily have been a number of others things.

My comment was on the messaging and the actual mismanagement and continued mishandling of the program changes messaging. Likely, at this point, they are identical, never said they were not. There are issues with the tenure and tone of the program changes The original Oct 17 rollout specifically noted separate troops, then 30 - 60 days later linked troops was an option National rolls out updated YPT and sets a different standard for girls and leaders than boys in that if there are girls then there must be a female YPT leader. No such gender specific requirement if there are

Or perhaps just variant covers of same content?

A marketing ploy? As I remember back in the day, Quaker Oats had the same cereal packaged as Quisp and Quake. They thought their ad campaign of which was better would have consumers buying both to compare, i.e. double sales. In the end, the different same cereals became the one cereal Captain Crunch.

Really??!?!? Are you serious? If they changed the Boy Scout book to add some pictures of girls and changed some pronouns you would have went nuts claiming they “changed the program”. They are adding a girls book with picture of girls and adding “she” instead of “he”. They did this in a separate book so they don’t upset the existing boys and their leaders... and that is now an issue? WOW! Perhaps we need to add trigger warnings to any BSA announcements going forward so existing leaders can go to their safe spaces prior to hearing such things like there is a scouts BSA book with pic

Tell his parents that if he does not ""identify" as a boy, he is not eligible for membership. If he chooses to "identify" as a girl, he will have to wait until girls are admitted. Those are the only two choices available to them at the present time. Sheesh.

I know that but I am hoping that this was just a case of the SM being swamped when asked and will get it taken care of after the email. I know from personal experience there are nights at scout meetings where you get 20 boys coming up basically all at once with something they need and you may miss some of those. The SM is human and most likely wants to do the right thing. And when you have say 20 boys all wanting SM conferences, even with ASMs handling them there is only so much time in the day and I know I don't like to rush through a SM conference so you never know how long it might take.

Ok, WB Staffers, Whats your Plan B for dealing with our Jewish brothers and sisters (Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday)? Ditto, for your Islamic brothers and sisters ( Friday prayers in particular, plus availability to meet the 5x daily prayers) ? Does not the 12th point require us to respect all faiths?

A registered member of BSA who is 18-20 years old and met all requirements is eligible to be elected just as any other youth. He does not need to be nominated by the committee. He may also vote, just like the other youth. This is true if he holds the position of ASM or some other position as long as he is registered as a member of BSA. If you would like I can try to find the specific wording from OA material.

Of course i asked the parents! They think it is ridiculous to keep this one girl in a den by herself. The only other girls that joined were Tigers, so it makes even less sense to put her in a mixed-rank den. I am actually over the top with communication to my parents. I am just here looking for guidance outside my own pack and council, whom I also asked about all this. This whole discussion is about how I can meet National guidelines and still allow this girl to have a full scouting experience.

If the Scoutmaster is stalling or stonewalling, things could get ugly. Fingers crossed for you.

But he's got the US Flag behind him....and a blue blazer with the BSA emblem and everything. Seems to be able to spin a tale, I might by a used car from him....

To be honest, most people who don't mind one way or the other wouldn't bother posting about it on an internet forum, so it's always going to tend towards the extremes one way or another. What I find interesting is the similarity in reactions to when the UK "bet the farm" on including girls, going from only Ventures being mixed to all sections being mixed. In some places, for some troops, it seemed everyone was against it, and in others everyone was for it. It was in pre internet forum days so none of it remains for posterity. I guess leaders of a feather flock together, and in places a vo

I think he wrote “separation” not “segregation”... reminds me of the SNL skit of too much violins on TV...😀

I would say most people in my area are in agreement with it, whether they sign up as adult leaders and support remains to be seen.

Son sent an email to the SM Monday night. No response as of yesterday. If nothing by tomorrow, I will likely be calling the SM to discuss further.

Popular support does not mean unanimous or even majority, but that said, even on this board it is the same few that are opposed. Just curious, if my experience tells me that there is popular support for this program, am I justified in calling you a liar because your experience is different? Am I justified if the my district and council's internal data shows popular support, am I justified in calling you a liar if yours doesn't? I disagree with National on a many issues, and at times I think they could screw just about anything up, but as a Scouter, I am beyond frustrated with Scouter

Its also likely fairly regional in the different opinions, so hard for anyone to estimate its exact popularity. I'm also appreciative of the idea that sometimes organizations have to change even its not what a majority of its current members want.

Yes - we would all like to see the data. But even if released, the survey was crafted to be so manipulative, designed to elicit only one response - any data from a survey like that would be pointless, in all reality. Can you at least give me room for rage over such an insulting process?

Calling it a minority does not make it so. I was frustrated for a while feeling like I was in the minority when I opposed girls in Scouting. My experience is like that of FireStone's, most people I see are supporting it.

I am ready to criticize BSA National about many things, and I detest the decision about girls in Scouting. But I will defend separate handbooks. I support as much separation as possible.

I'd just have her meet with the boys and call it a day. I would just make her a member of the boys den - no need for the technicality of being in her own den. Packs don't report den assignments to anyone. So putting her in her own den, but having her meet with the boys is a distinction without a difference. Going forward push for greater numbers in recruiting and work towards the goal of a separate girl and boy dens.

I think you're over thinking this. A scout has asked to be known by a different name. Unless the parents specifically phone the SM to object to using that name just go with it. If the parents contact you to object then deal with that then. At that point a conversation with them and the scout involved is needed. Until then I'd advise simply don't worry about it. Frankly if some other scouts left because I respected the wishes of another scout then I'd be sad to see them go but there's a lot of kids out there who can replace them. I currently have a scout who prefers a different name.

In this case, there's no mention of suspecting any abuse. There's no reason to avoid talking to the parents. I would think that saying, OK, your child goes by a new name. Our troop is a boy only troop as per the rules set by BSA. Your child is welcome to stay in the troop, but other than the name change, nothing else is going to change. Your child has to be declared a boy on any paperwork with BSA to be in the troop. For YPT issues, your child must be treated as a boy. If that's acceptable, then let's all carry on.

@Chris1, don't revise history... Registered and trained adult female advisors or associates were never required for a coed crew. An adult female did not need to be present for crew meetings or daytime activities (coed or otherwise) ... only for overnights. The revised requirements could very well crush venturing. Lacking any evidence of a spike in girls being victimized by their male leaders, this requirement is purely defensive against projected litigation of incidents in BSA4G.

Cubs - one coed pack - one book Crews - one coed Crew - one book Scouts BSA - separate gender troops - separate gender books Makes sense. If they were the same book people would be complaining that’s its coed. Seems people are searching for problems that don’t exist. Now if the two books have different programs, then I will complain as well. Until we know that to be the case, I just don’t get the complaining.

Between his 18th and 21st birthdays, he can still be elected as a youth, by the youth in the troop, but he can not vote for himself.

I was a quisp kid

Christmas is coming I'm betting our troop's white-elephant gift exchange will have at least one Scouts Handbook for Girls wrapped in cammo duct tape. I'm betting our more rugged boys will trade for it.

But but...it's all the same...They promised Except.... Then they added the linked troops, then the early adopter units sort of looked the other way for girl only dens, then the councils looked the other way for the same, then units in Oregon played the system and started a girls Explorer Club and called them a troop and brought them to camp and there was much rejoicing, and then National rolled inconsistent adult leadership requirements and there was no explanation, and many units said they were just going to be coed, then many councils started inflating the number of perspective gir

OK, I am convinced that its not the SMs role to keep secrets from the parents. Scouts should know that upfront, that sexual orientation or gender discussions are not part of scouting and should be shared with someone educated to help. Scouts that are confused with gender have issues that parents or professionals should deal with so we can move on with our program.

In MA, students under 14 in order to attend their IEP must be invited by school district. This rarely, if ever, happens. At 14 (not 13.9) , a student may decide, invited or not, to attend his/her IEP.

Out! LOL At least the parent would have more preparation than the unprepared volunteer scout leader. As I said in the post that you have taken personal offence, I balance my responses based from my life experiences. Parents are rarely part of the problem that you seem to suggest is normal. BUT, they are always part of the conclusion, what ever that turns out to be. If the child can't approach the parents first, there is a much bigger problem for the family than who learns first. As I said, one way or the other, their envolvement will be major toward the rest of the youths life. Y

Simply explain to the parents that the BSA is a "binary" organization..."male" or "female"...there is no provision for other "identities" or "no identity". Let them discuss it with their child and let you know what they decide. If they don't like your answer, give them the number of your SE. What does not seem "right" to me is that society has deteriorated to the point that we have to have this discussion at all...especially as volunteers who are simply trying to help out.

Learned yesterday that the Life Scout had the wrong date listed for his Life board of Review.

I'm kind of assuming here, but my understanding is that you're not a mental health professional, is that right? Because what you are calling "abuse" is actually what mental health professionals are advising teachers here in NJ to do with students who identify as a gender other than their birth gender, and is prescribed as the best course of action for a student's mental health.

My DEs over the years have been barely old enough to shave, with degrees in marketing or communications. SEs used to be DEs. I'd be wary of making that call without strong suspicion of abuse, as it seems to me the most logical outcome is a visit from DCFS. If there hasn't been any drama in the family before the call, there certainly will be after it.

So we are on the verge of debating whether or not to call the parents. This is exactly why I am against the BSA accepting transgender and gay youth. Volunteers now feel licensed and privileged to encourage youth toward a lifestyle that may only be a phase or a mental health condition, and possibly without the parents knowledge. That is child abuse as far as I’m concerned, and at the very least, not friendly. A side note: We had behavior concerns with a 12 year old scout, so we called the parents to inform them of the behavior, and ask for their help dealing with the it. Our SM at the time

Personally I prefer talking about scouting and life while sitting round a campfire rather than in the corner of a noisy room while a troop meeting is going on. That said, I have never seen or heard of such a rule. I do like to take longer with the older scouts, as their problems and decisions are more complex than an eleven year old. Sometimes a meeting at Dunkin' Doughnuts on Saturday morning is a good solution. But campouts only? Unless the scout in question never goes on them anymore, and the SM is using this ploy to force him to attend at least one, I just don't get it.

The problem with communication is that there is no one way that works for everyone. People get communication overload. Not everyone pays attention to email, to texts, to reminds, to applications, to smoke signals. Shoot, I can say something to my wife here in the room, and she doesn't hear me. (and she tells me vice versa) So the only way is to try a mix of several different ways. Even then don't expect 100% reception. The big statement from most folks, is that people should take the responsibility to pay attention when the information comes from "X" source. I totally agree. But

Honestly, I think the plastic badge holders are a pretty poor idea for rank badges. I would agree that teaching him to sew on the badges is a good idea. At a minimum they are on for 2 months each and that's 8 meetings and a couple campouts. For those badges with the rolled edge, you don't actually have to push a needle through the badge, just run it through the shirt, run through a few pieces of thread on the back and back through the shirt. Once the badge is on straight it is maybe 10 stitches and done. 15 minutes of work and for these that won't be on for long, nothing wrong with sewin

Teach him to sew it on.