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  1. Thank you all for the input. We spoke with the camp and they will make sure that troops follow the proper procedure and that no one will have sole use over any portion of the facilities.
    9 points
  2. All good responses so far. I apologize for not including this phrase in my prior reply as I feel it is very important; others have hinted at it in their responses. I believe that Scouting done well is evidence of the truth of this statement. Not eveything that counts is measureable, and not everything that is measureable counts. (paraphrase of a quote often attributed to Einstein)
    5 points
  3. My apologies for not understanding This is a challenging time for young people. Politics and cultural extremisms are driving everyone to pick a side with no gray area. Life was simple when I was a scout, it was a little more complicated when I was leader, but nothing like now. My high school teacher son is very frustrated. He had a student commit suicide a few months ago. One of three in the past few years. The problem from his perspective is social media. Kids today get all their identity from social media and that puts them in a very volatile place to find themselves. One day socia
    5 points
  4. This is a camp problem, not a you problem. Echoing similar advice: Don't leave it to chance. Address it with them before committing to camp and then hold them to it. If they can't commit to making it a comfortable experience (facilities and experience/emotionally) then find a better option if you can.
    5 points
  5. IMHO every issue should be reviewed to confirm that. I do not think we should take comfort by saying, to paraphrase, "We have the best YP...". I would rather hear We are constantly reviewing our YP procedures policies and procedures by examining incident reports with YP experts. Here is a link to our YP Committee reports on actions for those incidents, including legal actions, and legislation lobbying. My $0.02,
    4 points
  6. I've also seen Girl-only Camporees. That really gets to me. Imagine if we had Boy-only Camporees these days. More than one person actually defended it by saying that all of them were Boy-only prior to girls joining. Seriously? I fully support girls being in the program - my daughter loves it. However, I insist that all events be open to boys and girls. To do so otherwise is an insult to the members of BSA who are excluded. Even our Catholic Camporee is open to everyone.
    4 points
  7. I'm curious, what is the latest traditional male gender role that is considered a threat? I'm one of those people who believe mixing females into the patrols puts the males at a disadvantage for personal growth, and possibly some harm by the adults. So, I struggle with the idea that girls are the ones at risk. I've seen way too much overhype on this forum to not be concerned for the boys. One poster was bragging just the other day about all the girl cubs on the podium after the derby races. What was the point of the statement? Were boys also on the podium? We don't know, but we can imagin
    4 points
  8. I'd be having a conversation with the Camp Director, now. Make it clear to them- you're open to THEIR suggestions on how to share the use of the latrine, but explain in exactly the terms you outline here why only having the outside facility is not acceptable. It's a true public health issue if you and your troop cannot wash hands at times during the day. And, you're troop is paying the same as that troop, so it is not acceptable to you. If moving that troop to adjoin another site that has a female troop is a better option, then let the camp do so.
    4 points
  9. I thought that one of the points of YPT was to, in fact, shield scouts from people wishing to do harm? A lot of YPT is about prevention. Allowing hateful comments to remain on BSA social media posts (many remain and aren't deleted) seems like it would go against what we're trained to do, to stop the harm from continuing. We wouldn't just opt to ignore bullying comments made in-person, we respond to them, stop them, and address the scout or scouts making them. Comments made to make scouts feel unwelcome in the BSA constitute bullying, no matter where they happen. We certainly can't sh
    4 points
  10. Since you mentioned "Do I really spell out why that's contrary to the Scout Law?"... can you help me understand how a Pack "ignoring the separate dens by gender rule" isn't contrary to the Scout Law? Does that teach our Scouts that a Scout is Trustworthy? Ignoring rules that don't fit our agenda ("my scouts' ability to scout together") and then making reference to the Scout Law is rich.
    4 points
  11. There certainly is room for discussion on those points, and on CO rights when it comes to membership, etc. My concern here is not about individual units, or CO discretion when it comes to who they allow to be a part of their chartered unit. This is about the broader ongoing harassment about girls being in the BSA at all, from people who very clearly would like to see girls excluded from the Scouts BSA program entirely.
    4 points
  12. There is certainly more hostility and rudeness everywhere today. IMHO, correcting character mistakes by following the Scout Oath and Law is part of the game's purpose as is having the Courtesy to express our thoughts civilly and listen to other viewpoints. Maybe uniformed Scouts should, once again, be at all voting locations this November? My $0.01 for rambling,
    4 points
  13. I guess it depends on what side of the fence one stands on where the haters are. Just look at the title of this discussion, The BSA should get tough on scouts and scouters? One fairly new scouter even suggested I be censored on a discussion of mixed genders. Seems some folks are willing to push hostility to a new level to get what they want. So, explain to me why I should encourage my grandkids to join the BSA in this hostile environment. The game has lost the purpose. Barry
    4 points
  14. Haters gonna hate. It’s hard to toe a hard line as BSA risks losing those who disagree. Not meant as an excuse, just a reality. Important thing is that BSA stays on track and does not waiver. Change takes time, and it will get there. Keep advocating.
    4 points
  15. Salomon Rushdie spoke on 60 minutes regarding censorship. "There seems to be a kind of growing orthodoxy, particularly amongst young people, that censorship … is a good thing," Rushdie told correspondent Anderson Cooper. "The thing that's different now is that it's also coming from progressive voices," he said. "There are progressive voices saying that certain kinds of speech should be not permitted because it offends against this or that vulnerable group." Rushdie said that when speech is suppressed, the people who are first impacted are often minority groups. "To suppor
    3 points
  16. It's been 5 years of girls being in the Scouts BSA program, and yet every time the BSA posts a picture featuring a girl in uniform on Instagram, out come the scouts, scouters, and what appears to be just random other adults to complain about girls being in the BSA. I was in a virtual training session held by the Marketing team at National last night and a Scouter took to the chat to complain about gay and trans youth being allowed in the program. Then I go over to reddit and read a story about a girl who got nasty looks from supposed "adults" at a restaurant because she was an Eagle
    3 points
  17. 4/16/2024: Sixteen-year-old Emily Green, a first-generation Costa Rican American is a Eagle Scout. Her family came to this country with practically nothing, living in shelters, finally getting help from the Scouts. During the Report to the State, she addressed lawmakers at the Massachusetts State House. "Scouting has been instrumental in shaping my character and learning essential life skills. I started as a little girl, joining my brother, who's also an Eagle Scout, in his Scout troops. Then I joined a progressive co-ed troop and advanced through the ranks from a cub scout to Eagle
    3 points
  18. Her argument is that is 3x the work. An ASM tried to explain to her that this is the process. This is how things get done. Cooking for 11 isn’t easy, or how it should be done.
    3 points
  19. That would be three separate menus/shopping/cooking/cleanup in our unit, so three patrols. 3 olders is enough for a "patrol."
    3 points
  20. Zack Gridley was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy when he was just one year old after suffering from a double brain bleed shortly after birth. After years of developmental therapy Zack Gridley decided to join cub scouts in 2016. He's earned over 40 badges with Boy Scout Troop 55. "I would highly recommend because you get to develop a bond with people in your troop," Zack said. "Everyone helped me through this journey, and I worked very hard," Zack added. Zack's parents said though he received some accommodations on his journey, he mostly took on scout challenges on his own. "He
    3 points
  21. Please remember, the folks who pushed for the membership changes internally by your logic should have removed themselves, or been removed by BSA long before the membership changes happened.
    3 points
  22. I'm suggesting it's OK for adults to express reservations about membership changes online or in a Zoom meeting, provided it's done in a tactful manner. There is no need to "crack down" on them unless their comments target specific youth members or are deliberately hurtful. If you feel a youth in your area has been treated unfairly, by all means intervene on their behalf. Scouting would not exist in some communities today were it not for some of these "old school" scout leaders. Change takes time and I'm not sure you can get there by extinguishing dissent.
    3 points
  23. My favorite events are ones where I can just show up with my son and be a dad. I would gladly pay more in fees if it resulted in better, more frequent program opportunities at the council and district levels (unclear if that's the case). I'm a pretty frugal guy with a regular job and $165 doesn't seem that ridiculous by today's standards. Anyone else ashamed to admit what they spend on youth sports or their pets? 🙂
    3 points
  24. It sucks. I don’t mind, but I have a job where these fees aren’t hard for me to pay AND I already buy into the program. The hard part is when someone is new, when a person can’t really afford the fees, or when a unit doesn’t have the funds to pay for the adults. So, this really hinders growth since the growth comes at the margins, not from existing members. The $25 fee that is now gone, was a good example. “Let’s make it more expensive for new people, that will be a great way to get new people to sign up.” Sure. Great plan.
    3 points
  25. Well, in many cases it is subtle. You can't really address this or you are "not supportive", so there is no real alternative other than to be disgruntled. - We have seen at camp the female troops request, dare I say demand, that certain bath houses be "female only". Note these bathhouses are all setup with multiple locking single rooms in them, all open to the outside - There have been requests at camp for some activities to be female only at times (water skiing, climbing wall to name a few), yet the narrative is we are all Scouts, so why the request for special consideration?
    3 points
  26. @Armymutt, I think you'd agree it's like being in the military: The best thing about being in the military (or Scouts) is some of the people you get to work with. The worst thing about being in the military (or Scouts) is some of the people you get to work with. 😉 😉 😜 😜 😜
    3 points
  27. I’m glad you can air your grievances. My conservation: there is a great temptation among leaders of female troops to clear a zone for the girls. In my experience this is especially true for male leaders. We had one upset that our boys were fishing behind their girls tents. Well, when they weren’t girls tents, nobody made a fuss about where our boys were fishing. Heck, the previous year, with a different female troop, not only did they not complain their leaders were grateful that our boys treated them like fellow scouts. Needless to say the boys are frustrated about the mixed signals. And
    3 points
  28. Right. Signs can be moved. Schedules can be adjusted. Separate times scheduled and posted for youth/adult and female/male is good practice. That the troop was unable to accommodate male troop camping next to them speaks volumes of their leadership.
    3 points
  29. I"m sure this camp falls under a council. How about bringing it up to the council board. Just not going is good for your unit, but leaves the same problem that would fill your troop's week. How about identifying the troop to council and camp that took over the latrine. I'm more of the thinking Scouts can be courteous, but not a weak victim and just take it on the chin. Standing up for yourself and others is scout like too...brave? And to those leaders on the site (I hope they contribute) that condone taking over the latrine, you allowed Scouts to show an ugly side of shared camping and
    3 points
  30. I recently took a flight and as we approached the destination gate I heard something along the lines of "We know you have many choices when choosing carriers and thank you for choosing XXX airlines" The same is true of Scout camps. If the camp cannot at least make an attempt to correct the situation they should not be surprised if that unit does not return next year.
    3 points
  31. How can a troop over ride the camp director? Barry
    3 points
  32. And which part of the Scout Oath and Law makes it OK to make up your own rules when you don't like the ones you agreed to follow when you signed your membership application?
    3 points
  33. A Scout is Trustworthy. Full stop. That's my agenda--I'm not being secretive about it. I love the tortured logic to arrive at your conclusion though.
    3 points
  34. One of the kindest, most mature, and friendliest of my scouts made his arguments about why BSA should not have included girls to me and, I later learned, to scouts of mixed sexes in a merit badge class being led by a female camp staff. Exactly which cudgel should I have had BSA reign down upon him? Meanwhile I have had to help multiple female scouts stand firm against proper sexual harassment from scouts (or sometimes verbal abuse from scouters). They don’t want anyone to get hurt, they don’t think they’ll be believed, they think they led on, or they think it’s part of the job. It’s
    3 points
  35. I really don't understand where these extremist comments are coming from? It's out there. ... Society has been debating major topics for decades and will continue to do so. The "who can hit who and for what" is mid-evil. I pray that's not the frame of mind brought to this forum. ... The topics now are balanced funding for both Women's Studies and Men's Studies departments. Inclusion of women on men's sports teams and inclusion of men on women's sports teams. Mandatory paternal parental leave. Bring your son to work day. Why are more women graduating college than men? ... There i
    3 points
  36. Instagram is a public forum. And the BSA is tagging the troops they repost content from, so the scouts and scouters in those troops can (and do) see the comments. Yes I spoke up, as I intend to do anywhere I see this stuff, as well as share my concerns directly with whoever at National I can get to listen, starting with folks like Lisa Schuchart. So... what then? Adults should tell their scouts to not look at the posts the BSA tagged their troop in because of peoples' right to make hateful comments aimed at those scouts? Why do the kids have to look the other way on posts that t
    3 points
  37. The sad thing with this is that historically, BSA has been very inclusive overall. They were far ahead in acceptance of other races, especially Blacks, though dealing with the larger society was a real challenge. Yet even in the South, there are historical proof that some found a way for them to be involved. Similarly, when the Gay issue hit the fan, the issue was forced on BSA from society, rather than BSA making it an issue. I still feel that the Dale fiasco was brought on by people outside the actual unit and it members. They were aware, but simply had not felt it worth worrying about.
    3 points
  38. Yes. A scoutlike and rational discussion please on all topics otherwise how will BSA policies and implementations improve and kids benefit. If there is a YP problem, it will not be tolerated. Settled? IMHO, membership policy is still evolving.
    3 points
  39. Such is the culture we find ourselves in. "Either you agree with me, or you will be neutralized and canceled." There is no longer room for civil discourse. I attribute it to the way those younger than us have been raised...never having been told "no" and rewarded for anything they do, noteworthy or not. Temper tantrums worked growing up...why not continue into adulthood?
    3 points
  40. I mostly agree. My fear is BSA does the best when it focuses on adventure and skills. Everything else is about natural learning. BSA sucks when it tries to force what should be naturally learned. Society is debating these bigger topics. I disagree with "start having the conversations", "promote education ... on gender equality" and "empower men and boys ... on gender equality". I fully believe in "creating a safe space" and "build the culture". I believe we can do that very effectively. The trouble with the first is that society is having huge debates still on these topics. If y
    3 points
  41. Just to clarify my thoughts on BSA membership policy. I disagree with it (among other things) and I will speak out - in a scoutlike way to bring about IMHO positive change for kids. In moving forward, I believe we can reach workable compromises if we can agree it is for the kids. That said, we have seen repeatedly where membership policy has changed before there was the necessary prerequisite education, facilities, and resources in place. Be prepared. ~RS
    3 points
  42. 3/19/2024 excerpt from WOSM: Scouting for equality: Empowering voices against gender-based violence at UN Women’s Summit
    3 points
  43. Glad to see such things, too bad its not virtual. BSA really needs to include neurodiverity in its adult training, especailly since scouts seems to draw ND. So many neurotypicals just don't get it.
    3 points
  44. I think the best approach would be to give the CO's options, and let them decide how they wish to structure their Scouting program... Just like they already do with selection of adults, religious and character requirements, and whether they have a girl Troop under their umbrella. There are many that would wish to stay with the single-gender approach. There are many that would integrate.
    3 points
  45. It depends on how you define “tent”. At times my venturers slept under the stars. I didn’t bother to measure the distance between bedding to make sure they were the equivalent of two tent walls apart. (Although truth be told the sexes segregated on their own on most occasions.) It’s a big country, and National simply has no way to enforce a common culture on this.
    3 points
  46. Coed camping already occurs with venturing and Packs. So, we are really only talking about adding coed camping for 11, 12 and 13 yo. In addition, coed camping exists in those ages as linked Troops share camping sites all the time, including at BSA events. Clarification... When I say coed, I mean boys and girls camping at same site. Now, if you mean in the same tent, I agree that won't happen for a long time.
    3 points
  47. Train them. Trust them. Let them lead. It is 3x less work for SM..... Since the adult "patrol" is cooking for 3 people, not for 11.
    2 points
  48. So the boy units who have the exact same problem are left out again. There are lots of boy units who have the exact same problem, especially in the inner city, like Charlotte where that council is located. You would think that they would open it to all new troops. Might be a great way to get boys off the streets and into the woods.
    2 points
  49. @AwakeEnergyScouter, having grown wiup in a troop from a small-town (plenty of farm boys) and interacting with boys from troops of more urban areas, I kind of got the impression that our SM often picked the more remote campsites at summer camp and camporees. That might have been partly because some of the boys (yours truly excepted) were pretty rowdy. But it could have also been that some leaders absolutely needed more immediate access to showers, or needed weekends with a cabin (something our troop never spent a night in), or some other amenity. We took some pride in being that little bit mor
    2 points
  50. I was always taught the 13th Law wa "A Scout is Hungry"....
    2 points
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