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Lot of good comments Summary is the BSA (SA??) has not fully defined what it is and what they do. When I joined way back when it was a game with a purpose, we had adventures, learned things, sampled many different hobbies and interests, and most importantly learned to work in groups and take care of ourselves. As we matured we went from follower to leader. Over the years the BSA strayed from that to want to become the swiss army knife of youth groups. We do everything. Also more focus on advancement and formal learning and less emphasis on experiential learning. 1/2 the required

Thank you all for the input. We spoke with the camp and they will make sure that troops follow the proper procedure and that no one will have sole use over any portion of the facilities.

Maybe just a moment to take a break in the discussion and upvote or downvote @RememberSchiff for his diligent and faithful monitoring of this site, and all the delightful and informative Scouting news and insights he brings to us. "Diligent" is how I think of his effort. (AND, moderators, all upvotes should be attributed to @RememberSchiffand downvotes attributed to me.) Thanks all.

Poppycock. The legal system found BSA with it's huge insurance and property assets liable. In the same context, the parents, police, schools and the rest of society covered up too. The issue is legally tying liability to all the other conspirators. This was looting for legal profit.

This framing drives me crazy. BSA isn't being sued because BSA has money, BSA is being sued because BSA DID SOMETHING WRONG! That has been the finding of virtually every judge and jury that has heard these cases: BSA knew or should have known that pedophiles were using its program to access victims. BSA's failures, to act, to watch, to look, to enforce rules, etc. were the reason its members, volunteer and professional, were able to sexually assault children --- for decades. BSA DID SOMETHING WRONG AS AN ORGANIZATION! That's why they were sued AND LOST, over and over again. If BSA had

This has been debated previously and there are differing opinions. That said, organizations are responsible for both paid staff and volunteers. If an organization was so poorly run and organized to allow volunteers to repeatedly rape children, I do think that organization should be held accountable. In addition, there is evidence that BSA intentionally covered this up. While I understand society changed over time (background checks didn't exist in the past) I really struggle with the cover up that seemed to be occurring at national. BSA could have decided to fight this in court, but t

I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow back in the 1960's. I was a part of our chapter ceremonies team for years. I was a chapter chief and an advisor. I have been a Vigil Honor member for more than 50 years. Over the years I have seen a change in how the YOUTH perceive the use of Native American culture in the OA. I hear all the time about chapters and lodges who have difficulty fielding ceremonies teams, and when listening to the YOUTH who decline when asked to participate one of the most common things I hear is that they are amazed that we still dress up and play Indian. Many of t

I suppose if a NCAP advance team had seen this cache of water guns, the US contingent would have stayed state-side. https://25wsjnewsroom.imweb.me/74/?idx=15972542&bmode=view

Pressures of modern life and the pandemic have made the UK Scout organization stronger than ever with a 100,000-strong waiting list. ... "Then there’s the thorny issue of neurodiversity: where mainstream schools are struggling to cope with rising numbers of children diagnosed with autism and ADHD. The Scouts, however – which pitches itself as the opposite of a classroom environment – is not suffering. “We don’t teach in classrooms,” Carter adds. “We teach by doing in real life. Put up a tent in the rain, and they will learn it’s quicker if you work as a team. We also give lots of tra

Welcome to the forum, @Eloisefig. That's certainly no fun. It sounds like you've already made up your mind and I can't blame you. Good luck. But I'm not sure how much better luck you're going to have elsewhere. It seems to me that every troop I know of is struggling. Anyway, I few observations: In your meeting with the SPL and ASPL you dumped a whole lot of new ideas on them that they likely don't understand if they've never seen it before. Babies don't take smaller steps then older children, they stumble around and crash a lot. Sometimes they need to be caught before they crack the

I just completed a scouting survey. It included standard questions and asked for recommendations. It has additional questions for Scoutmasters that dug into collecting feedback about how girls troops are run (are they really independent or integrated and if integrated how integrated are they). It then had questions about recommendations if BSA should consider coed Troops and if they were coed, how integrated should the integrated Troops be managed. Hopefully this is really a survey to get input before decisions but I know that is not always the case. However, I can say that BSA must b

My file was shared with the local council, the "Catholic Insurance" organization, and who knows exactly where else. So, if the bankruptcy goes south, I have shared my most private details with multiple organizations (which also potentially places me at risk for retaliation) and the SoL still applies. I am so P##### off about this turn of events. Not that I was ever going to see much money (due to matrix sol), but I WAS going to have a feeling of some justice being served. Since the early promises, this has done nothing but further damage my life. I had built a big wall around my abuse and

While we are well beyond "Follow Me Boys" today, and in this incident, IF there is a way to try to guide the youth, while restricting his Scouting interactions, that might be a good course. In our unit long ago we had two youth get into serious trouble with the police on the edge. As it happened both were in POR, one the SPL, the other his assistant. It was at an OA function and I got phone calls in the early morning. One parent had to go to the camp to take them home. I spent a number of hours on the phone with committee people and the council reps for clarity. The boys were removed fro

Success comes from implementing a program that works toward a successful vision. The BSA lacks leadership that believes, much less understands the vision of developing moral and ethical decision makers. I get it, I struggled convincing many parents that giving scouts the independence to learn from their decisions in an outdoors environment is a successful path for building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. But, if organization leaders don’t believe it, how can the users believe in it. Barry

Hello from the U.K…. Been a wee while since I posted round here. Anyway I thought I’d swing by as I’m currently at scouts and it’s all gone a bit American! And I’m stood in a corner with not much to do with the PLs in danger of making me redundant. The scout program here while using the patrol system tends to use it as a way or organising a troop rather than the patrols being totally independent. At the moment however I have all 5 patrols doing their own thing having planned it all themselves. (Some looking a bit more organised than others but that’s teenagers for you) I’m in serious

How about going back to an earlier version?

I would say my troop is pretty outdoorsy. We camp 10/12 months, with a lock in IF possible in December and 2 weekends of Scouting For Food in February, being the 2 months we do not camp. Even during COVID, we continued to meet, virtually and outside, had monthly day trips in the outdoors, and even did our own summer camp. Yes we car camp, but we also backpack, cycle, and do canoeing and whitewater activities. And the Scouts pick Summer Camps with the program they want, with the only caveat being it has to be within an 8 hour drive. The last 2 batches of Webelos that visited, the activitie

IMHO Scouting's challenges have been that the program and emphasis is pulled in many directions by many different constituencies. Starting really in the 70's the trail has been varied: we are going to be urban we are going to be less outdoors we are going to be more outdoors we are going to do sports we are going to be involved in inner-city and have council run units we are going to be a leadership class for youth we are going to be STEM we are going to be less advancement focused we are going to be more advancement focused we are g

In my case, I will not proceed outside of bankruptcy. So this is it, for me. Missouri only occasionally allows the SoL to be tolled by fraud and perhaps that will benefit those who are able to pay or persuade an attorney to try. But it will be an uphill slug with low percentage victories and appeals. Not going to live out the time I have left even trying.

Actually, ever since the courts forced the BSA to open their files there have been lawyers and firms that specialized in suing the BSA. They got the statute of limitations thrown out and the flood gates opened. The ineligible volunteer files that helped the BSA for decades keep predators out (prior to the electronic age and national background checks) became a weapon to be used against the BSA. This was and is about a huge 1 Billion $+ payday for lawyers and law firms.

Interesting that the news article noted the likelihood of a large percentage of false claims having been generated in this mess. It is sad that this Scouter that mentored so many over such a period was put through this. I would like to perhaps hear how the false accusation came about, since the Joh Doe recanted under oath. Why did he do it? I suspect it has some connection to less than honest legal birds I so distain. So, we have a man falsely accused who is now in his own way a "survivor"? How many more may appear? The pendulum may swing some more. While the Survivors that

I am not sure that agreement can be presumed. I am a lawyer, 40 years in practice and our council executive, pompously affecting "CEO" is paid twice what I earn. And so, fine. BUT, the CEO manages half a dozen "professionals" who do menial tasks. (Actually, the tasks I've done as a volunteer-and much better than the "professionals.") And, if I make a legal mistake, I can lose my net worth-easily so. If the council CEO makes a mistake-frankly-who will ever know? I have no pension. Scout professionals have a superb pension. So, why does my scout CEO get paid over $300,

To my mind the most alarming thing is that this SM seems to lack a basic understanding of how a troop ( a collection of patrols) should be run. Except for obvious safety reasons and the most egregious and uncontested violations of the scout law, a SM does not remove patrol leaders. The patrol elected him, the patrol can elect someone else if they so desire it. In my troop it required a 2/3 majority because we realized that not every decision a PL makes is going to be a popular one. Even if it is the right one. In 20 years I think only two PLs were removed in such a fashion.

I have been known to give people a second chance. But if my Scouts are saying something, I would listen. I have found that Scouts know more about what is going on with each other than adults do. If they are concerned. You should be too.

Yes, I was an avid Ceremonies Team member in my youth, until turning 21 (back in 1987!). Meteu was my favorite part, although I played each part at one time or another. We had really bad outfits, with really bad headdresses. We also used facepaint without regard to meaning. We "played" Indian... I was ignorant to the issue of this being offensive, in a religious-sort-of-way. (Although, I do think that card is played is little too much. It is the default when someone wants to stop you from doing something they do not like.) Now that my ignorance is gone, I do not support the use of most

The rear-view mirror has been for a while now the only place where National and Council fees provided any real value to a member or unit. IFF BSA is going to continue into the future, tbe entire business plan needs to be reformulated. IMO, HQ and Councils need to almost eliminated. The entire structure needs to be reversed (as does most units). Patrol/Den is at the Top. All other bureaucratic groups sole purpose is to support the patrol/den. All revisions of handbooks and mB pamphlets can be handled by volunteers. Many of us have been willing to do thus for decades, but have be

I'll let others find the sources, but there are two opposing concepts that apply to the field uniform: A uniform is not required to be a member of BSA. The intent here is that we are not to discourage from membership a scout without means to buy a uniform. This goes way back to when the uniform was the most expensive aspect of membership, and a neckerchief of a particular color was the bare minimum. The PLC decides on the troop uniform. This typically involves neckerchief design and how/when it should be worn. It also involves defining the activity uniform. But in effect, if the PL

I sort of don't believe we're ploughing this dirt again, but there is little I don't believe about this situation after enduring the last 1294 days. All of the societal norms and reporting jumbo mumbo gumbo aside, no other US YSO, save the the Catholic and LDS Churches, elevated men to the position of adulation and deference BSA did. Period. Both of those words are key; children and parents were instructed to elevate to pedestal height and be enormously trusting of Scoutmasters, in particular. Still, it spread across all uniform-wearing adult leaders. You may say, "Now hold on a minute th

Years ago, as a council professional, I ran the entire cub summer program from a dozen day camps/firefly camps to 3 webelos and 3 cub parent weekends. One of my key volunteers (yes, every camp was run by volunteers) asked me, 'do you know why we all give up so much to do this?' and I said, 'Because you believe in the program'. And she said, 'No, it's because you thank us'. I think all of my volunteers knew that I both needed and treasured them. I learned the value of THANKS my first year in great part due to an outstanding council exec. But that is a longer story...

The challenge continues to be the group (professionals) that "lead" the program. We had recent interactions with our DE as we asked questions about the new registration process. Their responses were at best condescending and at worst arrogant and dismissive. Our district is smaller with maybe 10 - 12 Troops and roughly the same number of packs. It is rare that you get insight into what a company (pros-BSA) really thinks of it's customers (actual units). The feedback referenced a very poor quality Cub Chat YouTube video and alluded to communications from National BSA. Well there has n

It absolutely can. I look at the UK Scouts Association... They have far more scouts per capital, were growing pre COVID (and have started to rebound), have a large waiting list of scouts and a transparent/reasonable sized board with great focus on what youth need today. Or... We could go the way of Scouts Canada. I work with several Canadians... most don't realize scouting exist anymore. I think major action is needed to save scouts, but so far only see deck chairs being rearranged.

Well, if anyone was looking for a sign that this would be moving along a little quicker, you didn't get it today. What this means is that the Supreme Court will hear the Purdue arguments in December. Then, they will probably rule by the end of June when they go on recess. Lately they've issued a lot of decisions at the very end of the term. Purdue is in the Second Circuit and the BSA Bankruptcy is in the Third Circuit. BUT, the third circuit will most likely wait for a Supreme Court ruling on this so that it has guidance. This guidance has been long overdue since different Circuits/Distr

I don't know when and where you were a kid, but I can tell you from experience in multiple councils (6) in multiple states, beginning in the early 1960's, that in those councils abuse was not 'pretty widely know and pretty much batted aside'. In all those years I can only attest to being personally aware of two concrete cases of abuse in scouting. One resulted in the individual being permanently banned, with the local police being the ones who did not pursue the case any futher. The other resulted in the individual being sentence to 12 years in prison. To state that a letter admits

Part of the broader issue. While your comments are indicative of some very poor decision making, it is not the whole picture over the history of the program. For some reason, the FACT that the IV files were even created should be a positive piece of this, especially since there are instances where the intent of the files did what was needed. This was at a time when few, if any other groups were even trying to find a solution. Let us not minimize the larger society's poor response and even greater evidence of hiding issues, especially where money or political power was involved. BSA is not

The sentence is misleading. Inferring a general rule. It is the far, far exception and the outlier that proves the rule. BSA had millions of registered adults. I've read many, many of the IVF files and did not see what is inferred here. The quote was "I have reviewed information that now makes clear to me that decades ago BSA did, in at least some instances, allow individuals to return to Scouting even after credible accusations of sexual abuse." ... It was not the policy or rule. Any organization of millions of people will have "some instances". It is interesting in the same 201

BSA using the legal system to deter other organizations from using the terms Scouts and Scouting.

Tradition. There are a lot of people who were in scouting as a youth and want their kids in it to share the tradition. Americana. There are people drawn to it from the aspect that is iconic and part of the overall American experience. Oath & Law. People are drawn to the oath and law. There is a certain thing about wanting your kids practicing certain principals/ideals and being around other kids who are also practicing those principals and ideals. Outdoors. There are youth and adults who want their kids to learn outdoors skills.

This. ----------------- In the National Annual Report, https://www.scouting.org/about/annual-report/year2023/ they should change the verbiage from "earned" Merit Badges to "awarded" Merit Badges. There is a difference... Consider Camping Merit Badge. (For which, even after much advice and counsel, several of our Scouts still sign up every year at Summer Camp.) Including the subordinate items, there are 30 different requirements to complete for the badge. How many are "outdoors" requirements? 5: 8 (d) While camping in the outdoors, cook ...[three meals]... [It's

25+ years from now, folks will still be saying "Boy Scouts," "BSA," etc. Just look at Venturing and all the older names that had nothing to do with the Venturing program still in use, i.e. 'venture crews," "Venture Scouts," etc. And I can tell you from the discussions i have had since it was announced, folks with years of irreplaceable knowledge, skills, abilities, time, and treasure are upset. In my neck of the woods we have lost a lot of folks over recent membership changes, and finding replacements is difficult to impossible. Best money example is the current FOS goal is 5%, yes FIVE

I think that changing the name to appease simpletons isn't a good solution, but it seems to be the way the BSA wants to go anyway. Rather than expect people to be critical thinkers and rise up to the organization's level, it will come down to meet them. We saw this with the elimination of the Bobcat badge. Simpletons were confused so the solution was to destroy a legacy rather than insist that people take time to learn and understand. To me, the BSA has been the only constant in my life. My parents divorced when I was young, so neither was in my life 100% of the time. We moved around

And then you join and realize 90% of BSA activities are meetings and merit badge clinics where you have to write reports while adult leaders argue if googling information for your report was sufficient or if you should have used an Encyclopedia written in 1982.

All good responses so far. I apologize for not including this phrase in my prior reply as I feel it is very important; others have hinted at it in their responses. I believe that Scouting done well is evidence of the truth of this statement. Not eveything that counts is measureable, and not everything that is measureable counts. (paraphrase of a quote often attributed to Einstein)

This is a camp problem, not a you problem. Echoing similar advice: Don't leave it to chance. Address it with them before committing to camp and then hold them to it. If they can't commit to making it a comfortable experience (facilities and experience/emotionally) then find a better option if you can.

02/21/2024: Another summary of the current legal situation more detailed, yet balanced. Good reporting. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/bankruptcy-law/boy-scouts-settlement-pause-marks-shift-on-bankruptcy-doctrine

If trying to convert a car camping troop into a backpacking troop (or just trying to get them to plan ahead better), try this: -Always pack a backpack for the trip. Patrol gear & food split up among patrol and packed in backpack. -Trailer is used to transport packed gear only. (We never brought the trailer as it was only a storage shed). -Park cars some distance from campsite, cars get locked and not visited during trip. (If at public campground, this is still possible using main lot). -Patrols hike (even if only a quarter mile) to their campsite as a patrol. Start

I wish everyone the best. Change can be very, very painful. Personally, I enjoyed the OA events and ceremonies. Using AIA folklore added character. For long-time OA members, it's core to OA. I also cringe and won't defend the OA AIA ceremonies when asked by others. I personally don't want to be associated with it. For new scouts and their families, it's an obstacle to overcome.

@Cburkhardt, I do not know where you live and what socio-economic class your Scouts are in, but mine are in an extremely low economic class. If we were to charge full upfront costs and conduct no fundraising, we would not have a troop. 2/3 of the troop are on some type of financial aid for national and council fees as it is. EDITED I am hearing from the packs that the lack of prorating fees is hurting recruiting. It is too expensive to join. At least with the prorated fees, they could see if the child liked the program ( Scouting is not for everyone), and units had time to help out Scouts

Great point. I'll add: If the BSA is going to survive, it has to be OK with being every family's 2nd or 3rd favorite activity. I'm a Den Leader and it's not uncommon to see kids arrive 15 minutes late in their soccer or baseball uniform with a bag of food from Subway. You'll never hear me make a peep about their timing or appearance. I'm just glad they made it.

Throwing a random thought out there: I see a lot of comments about costs, registration fees, uniform costs, etc. And when I go on social media I see a lot of people commenting on photos of scouts with incomplete or improper uniforms. Scouts wearing jeans, non-standard insignia, missing badges, etc. Many of these comments come from adults, and one recent comment I saw came from a council executive. I feel like we've gotta let it go with the uniform policing. At the local unit level, if a troop wants to maintain some kind of uniform standard, fine. But at an organizational level,

I appreciate the compliment. I'll take them when I can get them! Been on the phone today with legal people far smarter than I am. The consensus....if the Supreme Court thought Third-Party releases were such a good idea then it wouldn't have taken up the case. Not good for the BSA's plan. Also, this is not a "Sackler-Specific" issue. It's all about interpretation of the bankruptcy code regardless of whether a wealthy family is involved. Had it not been the Sacklers it could have been the BSA's case to push this to the Supreme Court. It's been brewing a long time. The only way this goes