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  1. Maybe just a moment to take a break in the discussion and upvote or downvote @RememberSchiff for his diligent and faithful monitoring of this site, and all the delightful and informative Scouting news and insights he brings to us. "Diligent" is how I think of his effort. (AND, moderators, all upvotes should be attributed to @RememberSchiffand downvotes attributed to me.) Thanks all.
    9 points
  2. Poppycock. The legal system found BSA with it's huge insurance and property assets liable. In the same context, the parents, police, schools and the rest of society covered up too. The issue is legally tying liability to all the other conspirators. This was looting for legal profit.
    9 points
  3. I just wanted to say happy father's day to all the Survivors who tried and have tried their best, for so long, to be the best father they could be. The secrets you kept to protect the partners in your life you cared about, how hard you tried to protect your own children, and the hard work to not let anyone know what you were battling are all the stuff to be proud of even when you feel like you could have done more. Chin up.
    9 points
  4. By the way, you also don't need an adult present when Scout skills are learned for advancement. Get those adults out of those groups, registered or not, and let the Scouts teach the skills. Let the older Scouts sign the younger Scouts off on the requirements. Only then does an adult need to be involved.
    9 points
  5. This framing drives me crazy. BSA isn't being sued because BSA has money, BSA is being sued because BSA DID SOMETHING WRONG! That has been the finding of virtually every judge and jury that has heard these cases: BSA knew or should have known that pedophiles were using its program to access victims. BSA's failures, to act, to watch, to look, to enforce rules, etc. were the reason its members, volunteer and professional, were able to sexually assault children --- for decades. BSA DID SOMETHING WRONG AS AN ORGANIZATION! That's why they were sued AND LOST, over and over again. If BSA had
    8 points
  6. This has been debated previously and there are differing opinions. That said, organizations are responsible for both paid staff and volunteers. If an organization was so poorly run and organized to allow volunteers to repeatedly rape children, I do think that organization should be held accountable. In addition, there is evidence that BSA intentionally covered this up. While I understand society changed over time (background checks didn't exist in the past) I really struggle with the cover up that seemed to be occurring at national. BSA could have decided to fight this in court, but t
    8 points
  7. I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow back in the 1960's. I was a part of our chapter ceremonies team for years. I was a chapter chief and an advisor. I have been a Vigil Honor member for more than 50 years. Over the years I have seen a change in how the YOUTH perceive the use of Native American culture in the OA. I hear all the time about chapters and lodges who have difficulty fielding ceremonies teams, and when listening to the YOUTH who decline when asked to participate one of the most common things I hear is that they are amazed that we still dress up and play Indian. Many of t
    8 points
  8. I suppose if a NCAP advance team had seen this cache of water guns, the US contingent would have stayed state-side. https://25wsjnewsroom.imweb.me/74/?idx=15972542&bmode=view
    8 points
  9. About a month ago someone left a note on my door, rang the bell and left. The dog went crazy, I found the note, read it, and immediately called the scout that left it. He was my first scout that joined, some 18 years ago. The note was a thank you for helping him through some good and bad times. He very gently asked if I'd like to have a beer with him and I said absolutely. Long story short about 30 scouts and scouters from the past 25 years got together last night at a favorite brewery. It was fun. It was also better than that. There were a few scouts I didn't recognize until a certain phrase,
    8 points
  10. Yes, I am glad of it. As for survivors, our "moving on" means reprocessing our claims for the Settlement Trustee, undergoing the scrutiny process, arguing our case if need be, and waiting many months or years for the envelope that could be wee Lilliputian size. Don't forget about us. Fortunately, we will have YP representation from tip to tail and a Youth Protection Committee perpetually at the table. There is more than a little solace in that knowledge but recompense is not unimportant to many (most?) of us.
    8 points
  11. This is an issue that the Lodge Advisors should have recognized and remedied. The "Buddy System" is not just for swimming.
    8 points
  12. My file was shared with the local council, the "Catholic Insurance" organization, and who knows exactly where else. So, if the bankruptcy goes south, I have shared my most private details with multiple organizations (which also potentially places me at risk for retaliation) and the SoL still applies. I am so P##### off about this turn of events. Not that I was ever going to see much money (due to matrix sol), but I WAS going to have a feeling of some justice being served. Since the early promises, this has done nothing but further damage my life. I had built a big wall around my abuse and
    7 points
  13. While we are well beyond "Follow Me Boys" today, and in this incident, IF there is a way to try to guide the youth, while restricting his Scouting interactions, that might be a good course. In our unit long ago we had two youth get into serious trouble with the police on the edge. As it happened both were in POR, one the SPL, the other his assistant. It was at an OA function and I got phone calls in the early morning. One parent had to go to the camp to take them home. I spent a number of hours on the phone with committee people and the council reps for clarity. The boys were removed fro
    7 points
  14. Success comes from implementing a program that works toward a successful vision. The BSA lacks leadership that believes, much less understands the vision of developing moral and ethical decision makers. I get it, I struggled convincing many parents that giving scouts the independence to learn from their decisions in an outdoors environment is a successful path for building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. But, if organization leaders don’t believe it, how can the users believe in it. Barry
    7 points
  15. I would like to personally thank everyone who has participated in all the discussions in this forum and others. As I sat in Court today reflecting on the three-year journey we have all been through I thought about all of the passion that has been displayed. Regardless of whether I agreed with any opinion it helped to inform my thinking by understanding the views of others, and recognizing the amount of education the TCC needed to undertake. The nine of us on the TCC sought to do what was best for ALL Survivors and be agnostic about the BSA. We recognized that Survivors fell into three camp
    7 points
  16. I might have handled it differently. A family shows up, with scouts in uniform, to some event and they haven't paid. That's fine. I think the first thing I would have done was consider how much the pack will go into debt for them paying nothing. Apparently it's about $4/scout, so call it $10. Next, I'd consider the shame and embarrassment on these scouts of being turned away. About the same time I'd ask myself why they didn't pay. That's always tough to figure out. They could be just trying to get a free ride, might just be really disorganized, might be broke and too shy to ask for help,
    7 points
  17. In my case, I will not proceed outside of bankruptcy. So this is it, for me. Missouri only occasionally allows the SoL to be tolled by fraud and perhaps that will benefit those who are able to pay or persuade an attorney to try. But it will be an uphill slug with low percentage victories and appeals. Not going to live out the time I have left even trying.
    6 points
  18. Interesting that the news article noted the likelihood of a large percentage of false claims having been generated in this mess. It is sad that this Scouter that mentored so many over such a period was put through this. I would like to perhaps hear how the false accusation came about, since the Joh Doe recanted under oath. Why did he do it? I suspect it has some connection to less than honest legal birds I so distain. So, we have a man falsely accused who is now in his own way a "survivor"? How many more may appear? The pendulum may swing some more. While the Survivors that
    6 points
  19. I am not sure that agreement can be presumed. I am a lawyer, 40 years in practice and our council executive, pompously affecting "CEO" is paid twice what I earn. And so, fine. BUT, the CEO manages half a dozen "professionals" who do menial tasks. (Actually, the tasks I've done as a volunteer-and much better than the "professionals.") And, if I make a legal mistake, I can lose my net worth-easily so. If the council CEO makes a mistake-frankly-who will ever know? I have no pension. Scout professionals have a superb pension. So, why does my scout CEO get paid over $300,
    6 points
  20. To my mind the most alarming thing is that this SM seems to lack a basic understanding of how a troop ( a collection of patrols) should be run. Except for obvious safety reasons and the most egregious and uncontested violations of the scout law, a SM does not remove patrol leaders. The patrol elected him, the patrol can elect someone else if they so desire it. In my troop it required a 2/3 majority because we realized that not every decision a PL makes is going to be a popular one. Even if it is the right one. In 20 years I think only two PLs were removed in such a fashion.
    6 points
  21. I have been known to give people a second chance. But if my Scouts are saying something, I would listen. I have found that Scouts know more about what is going on with each other than adults do. If they are concerned. You should be too.
    6 points
  22. Yes, I was an avid Ceremonies Team member in my youth, until turning 21 (back in 1987!). Meteu was my favorite part, although I played each part at one time or another. We had really bad outfits, with really bad headdresses. We also used facepaint without regard to meaning. We "played" Indian... I was ignorant to the issue of this being offensive, in a religious-sort-of-way. (Although, I do think that card is played is little too much. It is the default when someone wants to stop you from doing something they do not like.) Now that my ignorance is gone, I do not support the use of most
    6 points
  23. The rear-view mirror has been for a while now the only place where National and Council fees provided any real value to a member or unit. IFF BSA is going to continue into the future, tbe entire business plan needs to be reformulated. IMO, HQ and Councils need to almost eliminated. The entire structure needs to be reversed (as does most units). Patrol/Den is at the Top. All other bureaucratic groups sole purpose is to support the patrol/den. All revisions of handbooks and mB pamphlets can be handled by volunteers. Many of us have been willing to do thus for decades, but have be
    6 points
  24. I'll let others find the sources, but there are two opposing concepts that apply to the field uniform: A uniform is not required to be a member of BSA. The intent here is that we are not to discourage from membership a scout without means to buy a uniform. This goes way back to when the uniform was the most expensive aspect of membership, and a neckerchief of a particular color was the bare minimum. The PLC decides on the troop uniform. This typically involves neckerchief design and how/when it should be worn. It also involves defining the activity uniform. But in effect, if the PL
    6 points
  25. I sort of don't believe we're ploughing this dirt again, but there is little I don't believe about this situation after enduring the last 1294 days. All of the societal norms and reporting jumbo mumbo gumbo aside, no other US YSO, save the the Catholic and LDS Churches, elevated men to the position of adulation and deference BSA did. Period. Both of those words are key; children and parents were instructed to elevate to pedestal height and be enormously trusting of Scoutmasters, in particular. Still, it spread across all uniform-wearing adult leaders. You may say, "Now hold on a minute th
    6 points
  26. Years ago, as a council professional, I ran the entire cub summer program from a dozen day camps/firefly camps to 3 webelos and 3 cub parent weekends. One of my key volunteers (yes, every camp was run by volunteers) asked me, 'do you know why we all give up so much to do this?' and I said, 'Because you believe in the program'. And she said, 'No, it's because you thank us'. I think all of my volunteers knew that I both needed and treasured them. I learned the value of THANKS my first year in great part due to an outstanding council exec. But that is a longer story...
    6 points
  27. The challenge continues to be the group (professionals) that "lead" the program. We had recent interactions with our DE as we asked questions about the new registration process. Their responses were at best condescending and at worst arrogant and dismissive. Our district is smaller with maybe 10 - 12 Troops and roughly the same number of packs. It is rare that you get insight into what a company (pros-BSA) really thinks of it's customers (actual units). The feedback referenced a very poor quality Cub Chat YouTube video and alluded to communications from National BSA. Well there has n
    6 points
  28. It absolutely can. I look at the UK Scouts Association... They have far more scouts per capital, were growing pre COVID (and have started to rebound), have a large waiting list of scouts and a transparent/reasonable sized board with great focus on what youth need today. Or... We could go the way of Scouts Canada. I work with several Canadians... most don't realize scouting exist anymore. I think major action is needed to save scouts, but so far only see deck chairs being rearranged.
    6 points
  29. Well, if anyone was looking for a sign that this would be moving along a little quicker, you didn't get it today. What this means is that the Supreme Court will hear the Purdue arguments in December. Then, they will probably rule by the end of June when they go on recess. Lately they've issued a lot of decisions at the very end of the term. Purdue is in the Second Circuit and the BSA Bankruptcy is in the Third Circuit. BUT, the third circuit will most likely wait for a Supreme Court ruling on this so that it has guidance. This guidance has been long overdue since different Circuits/Distr
    6 points
  30. I don't know when and where you were a kid, but I can tell you from experience in multiple councils (6) in multiple states, beginning in the early 1960's, that in those councils abuse was not 'pretty widely know and pretty much batted aside'. In all those years I can only attest to being personally aware of two concrete cases of abuse in scouting. One resulted in the individual being permanently banned, with the local police being the ones who did not pursue the case any futher. The other resulted in the individual being sentence to 12 years in prison. To state that a letter admits
    6 points
  31. Part of the broader issue. While your comments are indicative of some very poor decision making, it is not the whole picture over the history of the program. For some reason, the FACT that the IV files were even created should be a positive piece of this, especially since there are instances where the intent of the files did what was needed. This was at a time when few, if any other groups were even trying to find a solution. Let us not minimize the larger society's poor response and even greater evidence of hiding issues, especially where money or political power was involved. BSA is not
    6 points
  32. The sentence is misleading. Inferring a general rule. It is the far, far exception and the outlier that proves the rule. BSA had millions of registered adults. I've read many, many of the IVF files and did not see what is inferred here. The quote was "I have reviewed information that now makes clear to me that decades ago BSA did, in at least some instances, allow individuals to return to Scouting even after credible accusations of sexual abuse." ... It was not the policy or rule. Any organization of millions of people will have "some instances". It is interesting in the same 201
    6 points
  33. Repeat after me: HI, My Name is Fred8033, it's been 18 hours since I had anything to do with Scouting, and I am a Scouting Addict. 🤣
    6 points
  34. That's correct but..... The Trust is "effective" and operational but can only distribute the funds it has "in the bank" once awards are determined. Making that even more tricky is that without full payments from the settling insurers and others the Trust must also "hold back" funds in a safe manner to ensure that it doesn't run out of money. The TDP makes clear that awards will be determined on a "First in First Out" basis but that does NOT mean that Survivors who get their information submitted first will get some sort of full payment and deplete available funds for those who submit later.
    6 points
  35. Thank you and I wish everyone the best. I've been involved with scouting for 23+ years and I'm transitioning out for new adventures. Scouting will ALWAYS hold a special place in my heart. My wife says I can't walk into a store without buying scout popcorn, cookies or wreaths. Under the auspices of scouting, I've camped 300+ nights; often on scout properties. Sometimes in national, state or county parks. Sometimes on military bases. Sometimes in thunderstorms, floods, hurricanes and more than one blizzard. I've loved sharing these adventures with my sons and the other scouts. I'v
    6 points
  36. We just had a weekend group badge event, and from what the conselors told me, the youth were not concerned, and even had some serious comments. Most importantly, I am noting that my own annoyance, while still there for the reason I have previously noted, is likely MY annoyance and that I very well may have short changed the youth and their understanding. An occurrence we adults may allow too often. Yes, the tenets covered this, but the modern clarifications of broader accpetance may be important to discuss. Do we need the MB; I still do not believe so, but it is now here, and it fills a pl
    6 points
  37. My ASM who was a SM of a Troop for many years had several of his former scouts mail him their Eagle Scout medals when BSA fought against including gay scouts. He said it was hard on him but he understood and respected their stance. I'm here at summer camp with a Life rank gay/transgender scout and am happy I don't have to kick them out due to someone else's beliefs. BSA has many faults, but allowing LGBTQ and girls as members are not one of them.
    6 points
  38. I commend this young man for his maturity and hope that many others follow suit. Having spent 20 years in political opposition to the National Movement, I can tell you: They don't care what you think. They are moving forward with great purpose and intent and you can take it or you can leave it. A Scouting career of bitter intransigence hurts the Movement, and this guy gets that. I left 20 years ago as I felt Scouting was out of line with my values. Now I'm back for Scouting 2.0, with my kids, and couldn't be happier. I was away from Scouting long enough to know that the finest folks
    6 points
  39. National sent out a Scout Executive Packet last July, just weeks before the fatal shooting, warning of a pattern of failing to follow SOP's as discovered from 30 shootings (13 injuries) at sanctioned scout shooting events since 2018. The new information (including spreadsheets) was included in a memo unearthed as part of discovery in a wrongful death suit. Carvalho family lawyers have requested more details (incident reports?) from the BSA. “The attorney for BSA, Lincoln Ashida, said some of the information is confidential and needs to be protected. As
    6 points
  40. Just circling back to say how helpful this thread has been. We just did annual planning this week and the PLC switched all of our Troop's monthly campouts from two nights to one. We had been inadvertently counting those two-nighters towards First Class! But read closely! "Since joining Scouts BSA, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, at least six of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least three must include overnight camping." So for the past few months we haven't been signing off on any camping trips of two or more nights, as those are not ove
    6 points
  41. Is Scouting Fun - depends on how the unit is run. Is it a game with a purpose? Yes there are many forms, impediments, and potential oversight challenges, but actually the GTSS leaves open many many items. For our unit we eschew district and council events, they are waaay to much not fun. When you get the 40 page PDF and have a 45 minute safety briefing at the leader meeting can be trouble. Someone asked if one of us should step in and help plan, our feedback was life it to short, there are some ingrained folks that run those so better to move on to more fun things. One headwind w
    6 points
  42. Camping, hiking, etc. are definitely fun. I just got back from our mountain bike camping trip and the scouts had a blast. Do you know what doesn't look like a blast? Days and days of merit badge classes to complete the required merit badges for Eagle or talking about cooking/camping/etc. vs actually doing it. Uniforms that are designed for ceremonies but not actively working in cold or hot weather. Kicking kids out before/during their senior year of high school as they magically become an adult before their friends. I can go on. There is potential and a lot of scouting is fun, but I
    6 points
  43. You speak as though they were wrong to ask for that privilege. One of my pack's assistant Cubmasters is himself an alumnus of the pack. He continued on to a local troop and earned his Eagle rank. He's everything anyone should want in a Scout leader. Also he's gay. He and his husband (who holds no uniformed leadership position) contribute a good deal of time and effort to helping the pack go. What kind of lesson would we be teaching their sons to say their dads aren't fit to be Scout leaders, based on nothing more than who is in their family? It's not a positive lesson, that's for sure. Ma
    6 points
  44. I won't lie, participating in BSA events as a non-Christian can be uncomfortable at times. I remember as a youth being taken with the rest of my unit to Sunday-morning "non-denominational" (but still Christian / Protestant) services at camporees and also at Philmont. Though that was more than 20 years ago now, I imagine there are still districts and councils that put on similar programming today. I didn't get the impression from my unit leaders at the time that attending such things was optional. You would do well as a leader to make sure the non-Christian youth in your unit feel empowered to
    6 points
  45. Well, if you follow that pattern...Motorboating.
    6 points
  46. If trying to convert a car camping troop into a backpacking troop (or just trying to get them to plan ahead better), try this: -Always pack a backpack for the trip. Patrol gear & food split up among patrol and packed in backpack. -Trailer is used to transport packed gear only. (We never brought the trailer as it was only a storage shed). -Park cars some distance from campsite, cars get locked and not visited during trip. (If at public campground, this is still possible using main lot). -Patrols hike (even if only a quarter mile) to their campsite as a patrol. Start
    5 points
  47. I wish everyone the best. Change can be very, very painful. Personally, I enjoyed the OA events and ceremonies. Using AIA folklore added character. For long-time OA members, it's core to OA. I also cringe and won't defend the OA AIA ceremonies when asked by others. I personally don't want to be associated with it. For new scouts and their families, it's an obstacle to overcome.
    5 points
  48. I appreciate the compliment. I'll take them when I can get them! Been on the phone today with legal people far smarter than I am. The consensus....if the Supreme Court thought Third-Party releases were such a good idea then it wouldn't have taken up the case. Not good for the BSA's plan. Also, this is not a "Sackler-Specific" issue. It's all about interpretation of the bankruptcy code regardless of whether a wealthy family is involved. Had it not been the Sacklers it could have been the BSA's case to push this to the Supreme Court. It's been brewing a long time. The only way this goes
    5 points
  49. I was thinking about this a little more, and I think if I could send @RichardB one (long) message from this it would be: This forum, while hardly a complete cross-section of Scouting, seems to have a pretty good selection from different councils and different programs. It skews to more experienced Scouters, I'd say. The group is not homogeneous in thought by any stretch. Though some of the members are clearly wrong on many things (😁), not one poster here has ever come across to me as anything other than well-reasoned and well-meaning. If the members of this group didn't understand BS
    5 points
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