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  1. After over 4 years of working in the field, today was my last day as a Professional Scouter. It's been an incredible ride, but it's time for me to move on and start the next chapter in my life. Thank you to everyone on this forum over the past years who helped me grow as a Pro. If you ever have any questions about Professional side of Scouting, or "the Dark Side", please don't hesitate to reach out. Volunteers are some of the kindest, most selfless people you will ever meet in this world. It was truly an honor to serve them, and I will miss working with them dearly.
    7 points
  2. The IVFs were created in a time when Scouting could effectively deny a volunteer application without causing a stir while openly stating they suspected someone of sexual abuse or homosexuality could have wrecked lives -- many of them innocent. I'm a single male (never found Ms. Right and put too much time into work and Scouting) who simply wanted to give back to a program that I got a lot out of as a youth -- I'm willing to bet someone somewhere "wondered" about me at times and that could have been a career wrecker. The context of Scouting is precisely what made it attractive to predator
    5 points
  3. Yep. Hope it helps. It's been a lousy year. One thing I learned as a new SM is that there are lots more people complaining than helping. As a retired SM I learned that nobody really cared about my opinion so much as whether I helped. As for your old SM swearing at the new SM, that's just an angry old guy that can't find a way to help. Don't let him bother you. Oh, and give yourself a raise of, say, 45%? Does that sound fair? 😀
    5 points
  4. Let me preface my comments by saying that as a youth, I was a Brotherhood member of the OA, and in my senior year was simultaneously SPL of my troop and editor of the Lodge newsletter, so I know from experience that it is possible to do both. And yet.... I confess that as a Scoutmaster I have never held an OA election. The primary reason, frankly, is utter and complete lack of youth interest. I tried promoting the OA in my early years, and often mentioned OA representative as a possibility to older youth seeking a POR. Even had the OA reps come and do a video presentation. Cricket
    5 points
  5. Really? Not the abusers? And the BSA that, we now have documented proof, failed to protect these scouts and instead covered up? As for trashing lawyers (again), let me remind you and everyone: BSA has lawyers. The LCs have lawyers. The insurance companies have lawyers. Are you OK with the child sexual abuse victims NOT having access to legal counsel while everyone else does? As for "activists", I have no idea what you are even talking about. And what "bureaucrats" are you talking about? Again, no idea what you are saying. You want to lay blame? How about on the abusers? And
    4 points
  6. Because it didn’t involve a lot of camping and vulnerable situations that camping brings with it (showers, swimming, changing, sleeping, homesickness). These vulnerable / risky situations happen each month, month after month.
    4 points
  7. To be precise, Big Tobacco knew the general use of their product would increase risk (as opposed to generally not using it). I attended Kessler's lecture on the subject while he headed the FDA . It wasn't merely that smokers got cancer (among other things). Lot's of people did. It was that, in company-funded studies, multiple times the percentage of smokers got sick than did non-smokers, tobacco -- especially concentrated nicotine was likely to be addictive, smokers who started as youth were less likely to quit, And the corporate response (documented by whistle-blowers) was to begin ad campaig
    4 points
  8. My experience is that my rapist raped 11- 13 other young boys. The Boy Scouts knew about it (several letters from Troop Master to local council talking about it. Yes he was forced out out of that troop tried again in a different state and was denied the ability to volunteer (and he got his $2 application fee back) and that local council was told to tell him politely that his services were not needed. Wonder where he went next to get his rocks off? I wonder how many more young boys did he victimize? If he was caught later was BSA culpable because they didn't turn him into law enforcement.
    4 points
  9. I feel a need to revisit this. BSA has spent a tremendous amount of money for legal fees and other costs associated with this bankruptcy and they did it for one reason to keep themselves from losing everything. It is probably more then the amount that they want National to put into the settlement trust. White Cassel has made a large bucket of money and will make more the longer that this drags on (which is to their benefit). Who are the activists you are referring to that wants to "tear down another pillar of traditional American society & culture"? The "bureaucrats protecting their r
    3 points
  10. Some version of the ineligible volunteers files have been in existence since 1919. They were referenced in the 1930s. BSA long knew it was a particular target for pedophiles. 4-H is also a 100 plus year old legacy youth organization and no such files exist there.
    3 points
  11. That would be a best case scenario if it is limited to the BSA relationship with COs. In a worst case, zombie world scenario, we could see hundreds of local small COs wiped out or affected by this. For example, the Methodist Church. I work with is a state based council. A host of smaller churches by me are barely functional, but they do have some property and assets. If the UMC had to respond to the cases in our state as a council, it would likely result in the closure and sale of dozens of small churches, their parsonages, some local camp properties, community buildings, etc. If Chapter 11 is
    3 points
  12. Would you explain what you mean by this, please? How was the agreement a promo tool, given that it was an agreement? I'm not poking, just asking to understand how it was perceived by all the parties. Yeah. To your point, if if the words on the page say something different than what you're being told or what someone "expects," better opt not to sign or modify the language. Famous last words: "It's not that important. Just sign it. We all know what we mean. No one cares about these anyway. They just go in drawer somewhere..."
    3 points
  13. I learned while serving in the military you can only sue the government if the give you permission. There will be no permission granted.
    3 points
  14. Under the plan, the Victims Compensation Trustee appointed by the court would review all claims and determine value based on a abuse matrix established/approved as part of the plan. The insurance companies would/could demand that each claimant provide proof, but it would be the Trustee who decided things. EDIT: decided things such as whether there was sufficient proof to allow the claim, how much the claim is valued at, and how much will actually be paid out. FOR EXAMPLE (again, being very gentle here and using examples of physical harm rather than sexual because there are young peop
    3 points
  15. "" The Boy Scouts of America posthumously awarded Chester County's Evan Bass the rank of Eagle Scout at a ceremony Monday in Chester. Evan, a Chester County high school student, athlete and dedicated member of Boy Scout Troop 61, died in a tragic ATV accident on April 10, 2020. He was 17. Family , Scouts and Community finished Evan’s Eagle Project. The Palmetto Council of the Boy Scouts of America also presented the Bass family with the Spirit of the Eagle Award, a posthumous award recognizing the achievements of Scouts who lost their lives to “untimely acciden
    3 points
  16. So, membership including complete units are disappearing. Participation in national events is dropping off, local camps are closing and being sold, and the National High Adventure Properties have been mortgaged. So in order to raise funds let's charge whatever members that are left a higher membership fee. Then, let's recruit new members and charge them a new member fee and tell them that they still have to pay for everything they do. In addition, let's build a super sized white elephant in West Virginia with all kinds of cool stuff that the majority of the members will never get to use,
    3 points
  17. Trying to get on the Court's good side?
    3 points
  18. I'd be careful how you phrase this and attempt to make a distinction. In the midst of my abuse during the 70's, when BSA was fully aware of what was going on, the marketing was pretty hot and heavy. I'm not saying the two contexts are exactly parallel, but a clear comparison is easy. (As to Big Tobacco, fill in any product liability debacle. Let's toss that one if you'd like.) The comparison trips out like this: 1) Defect - broad opportunities for access to boys --> predation and abuse; 2) Knowledge and recording of incidents of abuse impacts arising from defect; 3) Failure t
    2 points
  19. Or, as the text from a scout alumnus said, "Oh wow. This website might be the best thing in existence" (Yes, I've kept that in my flip phone for years.) And @MattR, that is precisely where CALTOPO says, "Hold my beer." The ability to add overlays -- or remove all overlays to create a blank map with only your controls -- is priceless. What's really nice is that from the same map you can make print to .pdf's at different scales. You can only save so many maps on their site, but you can download the .pdf's of the one's you like before they expire. A scouter can do a lot with the free
    2 points
  20. When I first learned about the Ineligible Volunteer Files in the 1990s, I was given to understand that the cases of perversion were ones that Scouting couldn't prove (i.e., didn't go to trial) but that the local councils wanted to track to keep the alleged predator away from the boys. Cases that could be proven were supposedly referred to law enforcement. I understand that some people, wanting to avoid negative publicity, may have used the files as an alternative to pursuing prosecution. That was clearly wrong but it still hurts my head that something that was created as a tool for prev
    2 points
  21. I just signed up a scout to join my troop last week and I paid his registration fee out of my pocket ($37.50) and bought him a manual. I just do not want money to be an issue for a scout to join the program and they will have a chance in Sept/Oct to sell popcorn to fund their own program the next year. Many organizations give introductory deals to get membership numbers up and the BSA should also. At some point, scouters like myself will have to give up bailing out national for their bad decisions to keep our troops/packs alive.
    2 points
  22. I rely heavily on CalTopo.com. The ability to customize maps or aerial photos, coupled with a layer of existing trails, makes it a go-to when I need to generate a .pdf for our troop. Not sure if it’s shareable, but here’s a link to one that I train our scouts on https://caltopo.com/m/D202. I’ve added markers for insertion points, geocaches, campsites, and distance radii.
    2 points
  23. Like most of the youth programs, OA is the vision of the adults in the moment. I have seen OA programs cross the spectrum of what the handbook says they are. Sadly, many adults see their part in the program as the key to the image and they take out the honor of the OA. As scoutmaster, I supported the elections, but stayed away from the program because I didn't care for the adult side of the program. That being said, the scouts in my troop were in leadership roles for about 10 years. Since our troop wasn't involved with OA other than holding elections, I attribute the success of our scouts
    2 points
  24. In terms of promotion, charter certificates were often framed and placed on an institution's wall. It was (and for many organizations, continues to be) an honor to host a scout unit. Many people found out about scouting because they saw scouts doing good works in their building. Where I grew up, the scout's meeting times were in the church bulletin. Chartering a scout unit was (and continues to be) one way of showing you are doing good in your community. When it comes to actually pursuing CO's, it seems that there will be no one-size-fits-all. A CO could be a group of parents who coalesce
    2 points
  25. My problem with OA today is that the program drivers (adult sponsors) don't plan a program where the activities practice growth toward the honor of serving others and camping. As a scout in the 70's, young scouts learned quickly that Arrowmen where experts in the outdoors and they could ask any question for help. And, since serving was their other character traits, they were usually easy to approach and lacked the arrogance many of the older scouts had. Frankly, the election process back then filtered out immature scouts and scouts who only wanted the Arrowmen status. Those are the main m
    2 points
  26. I’d tell anyone who would dare cuss me out via text that my flip phone lost their message before I could read it. They can find me at a campfire 3 miles into back country if they want to come and discuss anything. Just bring dessert.
    2 points
  27. Rules to live by: 1) The work is done by whoever shows up. Show up. 2) Train'em, trust'em, turn'em loose. 3) Ye canst not please everyone all the time. You will have three possible "bosses". Please these three and you will be doing good: a) Your God, however you perceive him/her /it. b) .Someone, somewhere, sometime, will ALWAYS be telling you what to do. A teacher, your spouse, a traffic cop.... At what peril do you NOT please THEM ? c) The fellow who pays you for doing what you do to get paid. Ethical? Legal? Satisfying? Fu
    2 points
  28. " Do what is right by the scouts, don't worry about the rest" Advice given me by a truly old time Scouter when I because a DL back in '94.
    2 points
  29. It was and is the biggest open secret in BSA: most COs wouldn't know what is going on inside the units if you asked. I once figured that, based on my experience with one unit, that the COR couldn't pick the Cubmaster out of a lineup. All the COR knew is once a year the committee chair showed up with some papers for him to sign and, every so often, left some papers in his box (adult applications) for signatures. That was it. And this is a VERY common occurrence.
    2 points
  30. Ha! When I was getting my brotherhood honor, I was the only Scouter wearing blue loops at the entire two-day event (which was council wide). And thus my nickname to a great many OA members, to this day, is "Blue Loops." 💙 I wear silver loops on my epaulets now since I am on the district committee, but I still miss my blue loops. If you ask me, Blue Loops have the most fun. 😄
    2 points
  31. Kosnoff just came out with some numbers. He is estimating that there were actually millions of youth abused in the BSA. BSA admitted they had 8,000 leaders listed in their perversion files BSA previously admitted they destroyed many files in the 1970s and didn't keep records of what they destroyed In 1935, BSA stated they had 2,500 leaders listed in perversion files. Based on extrapolations (assuming rate remained the same), Kosnoff estimates 45 - 50K leaders were removed from the list in the 1970s. AIS indicates 95% of their clients have identified unique abusers,
    2 points
  32. The only numbers we have that are not anecdotal are the claims that were filed. Until they are further analyzed to either accept or deny them, they represent a factual data point. Everything else is conjecture. You say you are being careful about how you select your data, but several times it has been pointed out that comparing the number of claims filed in the current day to the past universe of scouting alumni of 110 million, most of whom are likely now dead or incapacitated, is not valid. I think it is also important to acknowledge that asking survivors to file claims is not the same as con
    2 points
  33. Yes 85,000 is a big number but in my opinion that number is way higher. 30% of men die between the ages of 50 to 80 years old. There was 53,619 claims in the years between 1954 and 1984 (if average age of abuse was 13 these victims would be between the ages of 50 to 80 now). If the 30% were still alive and were to claim that would be an additional 16,086 claims. That does not take take into account those who may still be alive suffering from dementia and or mental illness who cannot because of their conditions make a claim. Look at it a different way...what was the number of abuse i
    2 points
  34. @ThenNow, again, no forgiveness necessary. Just as you, and others have touted 85,000 as a big number ... I have, with some reasonable objectively, identified it is a small percentage, relative to estimates from reliable studies. The review article that @CynicalScouter shared pointed out that only one of the studies estimated lifetime prevalence of victimization. Those tragically high percentages are pretty tight estimates of what's been happening in the average modern American male lifetime so long as he's avoided juvenile detention or jail. But NISVS data are not relevant to Chi
    2 points
  35. @MGinLA, I agree with most of what you said but I did things slightly differently. I still ran the elections. First, I had a couple if scouts that did find their place in the OA and they never would have known about it if I hadn't run the elections. I agree with you that the scouts know more about the scouts than the adults and our elections were much more about character than popularity as the popular scouts took longer to get elected than the quiet, helpful scouts. That said, I can also see certain personalities, if there were enough scouts like that, that would turn it into a popularity con
    2 points
  36. It doesn't. In order to demonstrate liability for duty to care, you have to demonstrate that the federal government took responsibility for the care of that child. Again, BSA is not a government entity. The federal government took no implicit or explicit responsibility for the care of the children within BSA. In any event, this is veering of the bankruptcy topic.
    2 points
  37. And at is what many COs, and probably a few councils too, believed when they paid the charter fee. That is what I was told as a DE, and what I told prospective COs. In fact it was a "selling" point. Heck I was told that as early as 1993.
    2 points
  38. In my case, the Catholic Parish that sponsored our troop benefited by providing the complete package-Church, School, and social life consisting of youth organizations and Scouts. I can see the potential liability because even without directly running the Scout troop, the troop WAS operating under the Parish brand. And had I not been invested in the balance of the package, I may not have been a Scout. And therefore may not have been abused.
    2 points
  39. I know. I just like my Scarface reference better with the word “sovereign” in it. It was not a substantive note. I can’t hear Al Pacino using that terrible accent being able to properly mangle the word “legislative.” Can you? Send me the audio clip, if you do it! 😉
    2 points
  40. Say hello to their little friend, Sovereign Immunity. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/governmental_immunity
    2 points
  41. I just wish that the people at the national BSA level would be truthful, direct, and transparent to every volunteer that attended a Scout meeting. I don't mean pages and pages of documents, just plain fact and truth. If the money is needed to help cover insurance, let us know! If the new training requirements are based on new insurance issues, let us know! At this point even loyal and dedicated volunteers are walking away, this could be prevented if we just knew what was going on!
    2 points
  42. I think there is another way that has been used in other class action suits, often regarding health issues. They have the data in the claims, some of which has already been entered. Once the data is input, it's not difficult to mine for corroborating clusters of cases in certain physical locations, in certain time frames, among certain councils, units, or camps, and cross check any incomplete claims against claims with identified and known abusers. For example, you might have a cohort of scouts in X region during Y timeframe who attended Z camp. If they can be matched up to a subset who were
    2 points
  43. Yeah, that's called (at best) convenience sampling. It has precisely 0 statistical worth or value when trying to make generalizations as to a group (BSA child sexual abuse victims). At worst it is called anecdata. Both are scorned if used to try and extrapolate anything about anything. "plural of the word anecdote is not data" as my old research methods professor beat into my head. And there are ways to sample sexual abuse victims with scientific rigor. Relying on a) people you talked to or b) sexual abuse victims who filed claims are poor substitutes.
    2 points
  44. Forgive me and respectfully, but you have noted this small sample at least three times that I recall. I'm not you, but I wouldn't be willing to draw conclusions based upon that admittedly small sampling. I'm curious how many are in that anecdotal study group, their ages now and at the time of abuse, gender and why you think it can inform a context of abuse not by someone related to the victim. Also, I did not use the word "strong" when suggesting there should be corroborating points of reference where there are currently none.
    2 points
  45. When the insurance company's first came up with their idea of rooting out false claims I thought it was a good idea. I figured there will be more money in the pot for myself. I talked to a lawyer whom I trust and he told me that that was a delaying tactic and that the actual cost of investigation, interrogation etc. etc. would cost far more than paying out on those claims. Seeing how much has been paid so far in legal fees I tend to agree with him. That being said if a smaller amount was offered up to all for dropping out with the possibility of more vetting of the claims I think a lot of
    2 points
  46. As for this dingy captain, if there is not a TCC statement in the packet, as BSA previously signaled by saying only supporting comments are allowed, that would pretty much ensure my "No" vote.
    2 points
  47. That is 100% not true. Districts are geographic areas of a Council. They do NOT own troops. Chartered Organizations own the troops. Until 2020, COs were all entities independent of BSA National or Councils (e.g. Masonic lodges, Catholic parish churches, etc.) In 2021 there was a second option introduced where the CO was your local Council (not district, Council). That is the EXCEPTION, the vast, vast, VAST majority of units are still "owned" by COs. independent of BSA National or Councils.
    2 points
  48. Really looking forward to this weekend. It will be the traditional big party that kicks off the summer at my Scout Camp! This was nixed last year by the pandemic, but it looks like we will have something like a "return-to-normal" this year. I will be so happy connect with many old and new Scouting friends. I hope that all of you fellow Scouters will have a great summer, too!
    2 points
  49. This thread started in the bankruptcy thread with a post about the LDS relationship with BSA and a statement that the LDS is more at fault than BSA and should contribute a large amount to the settlement. It quickly veered in a deeper discussion about LDS reporting practices and after a few pages of posts, I thought it would be best to pull the discussion out of the bankruptcy thread (as it had little to do with bankruptcy) and make it its own topic. Part of that goal was to allow those who were not following the bankruptcy thread to realize what discussion was taking place and take part (if
    2 points
  50. $72 for youth. Yeah yeah, great value etc, but it is getting pricey Over the last year, we have seen the Scouting community come together, even while being physically apart, to bring solutions, relief and comfort to those in need. Scouting continues to be a vital partner for communities across the country. The value of Scouting is undeniable for those within the program and the greater public, and the Boy Scouts of America is committed to continuing to offer this unmatched opportunity to young people and families nationwide. It is important that we all reach out to Scouting f
    2 points
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