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  1. 10 points
    Well, that's sort of where I am going with this, and I do not think the "gender correlation" is anywhere near 100% - or more to the point, is not likely to be anywhere near 100% with the girls who are going to join the Cub Scouts or the Whatever (11-17) Scouts. Boys (and girls) are already pretty different just within their own genders. Some are much more athletic than others (and everything in between.) Same thing with their enthusiasm for different parts of the program. (I have seen boys who actually liked the Eagle-required "homework-badges", and liked camping and hiking and backpacking a little less - and vice versa, of course. I will never forget the kid who, at age 15 or so, brought the book "C++ for Dummies" on a camping trip, which I thought was hilarious.) Same thing with their interest in being leaders. (My son was never interested in being THE leader, either as PL or SPL. He was an APL and then his POR's were Den Chief and then Instructor. But there were times he was thrust into being the acting PL or ASPL, and 2 or 3 times, acting SPL, and in my unbiased opinion (ha ha) he did a great job. I thought he was a "natural" leader - he just wasn't that interested in leading.) Same thing with every other part of being a Scout. Girls have the same differences among themselves, although one might speculate that the "average" girl who decides to join the BSA might be more enthusiastic about the more strenuous outdoor activities, and might in general be a little "bolder" (perhaps even "tougher") than the "average" girl in general. Even if one accepts that the "average boy" is different from the "average girl" (and I do), I think that if everybody calms down and just sees what happens, the transition will be smoother - and the pressure to "adjust" or "modify" the "program" will be less - than a lot of people here expect.
  2. 4 points
    One of our new scouts thought KP and the 3 pot method was hazing. The SPL looked at him and said work is not hazing, if they did decide to haze him it would involve a good bit of orientation and training his part, you can't expect to fully appreciate hazing unless you have been properly trained. The SPL has a future in corporate America
  3. 3 points
    The idea behind this isn't to change the program to meet the needs of girls - the idea behind this is to open the program to girls who want to experience the program the BSA has as it already is. If we gain 100K girls without "changing the program to meet the needs of girls", aren't we, in fact, actually meeting the needs of 100K girls that the GS were not meeting the needs of? I consider those arguments from the Girl Scouts spokesperson to be specious at best.
  4. 3 points
    Parents who want to shield their children from any failure or negative impact on their feelings.
  5. 3 points
    Corporal punishment of a card? I once saw an egregious example of corporal punishment of a rope. They gave it a real lashing.
  6. 3 points
    Specific actions may or may not be hazing depending on context, intent and other factors. Is having a scout do push-ups hazing? If it is in context of encouraging physical fitness, probably not. Making a first year scout do push-ups to get his breakfast, yes. I may not be able to define it; but I know it when I see it.
  7. 2 points
    This makes it a little different kettle of fish. Leaving aside whether the CM should have said anything to your son about the dishwashing and his playing catch (most of us are going to tell you the CM was wrong to do so unless it was an imminent safety thing or he was also an ASM but there is room for others to disagree ) - this is actually far worse. The CM engaged in passive-aggressive bullying of your son. I generally agree that most of the time, a Scout should be able to approach their SM and work things out if there is a problem - but in this case my opinion is this is not one of those times. Now that you have more of the story, you - as the parent - should contact the Scoutmaster and have a friendly discussion about what your son experienced at the camp - and I emphasize friendly. It is quite possible that the SM and ASM on the trip knew nothing about what transpired. This isn't a time to demand that they solve it, this isn't the time to be mother bear and growl at the SM a lot. This is just a friendly chat giving the SM a heads-up of what your son experienced at the campout from this adult. Then stand back and see how they handle it. As I said, I generally agree that Scouts should be able to handle things on their own - but I am also taking in to account that your son is 10. As much as we would like Scouts to be able to take care of themselves - we're still talking about a 10-year old. Talk to the Scoutmaster - tonight if possible - if you're bothered enough by this to post on this forum asking for advice, then I would think you would be bothered enough to have that friendly chat with the SM.
  8. 2 points
    Your son is being picked on by an adult. I would drop all of the other issues and focus on that.
  9. 2 points
    Sometimes adults don't realize they are a source of friction. If the CM is a friend, you may be able to point that out. But, for your son ... In general, just like captains in sports or band and their need to get feedback from the coach/director, the PL relationship with the SM/ASM is paramount. We spend a lot of time coaching boys in relationships with adults (parents, MB counselors, Rangers, etc ...). So when things aren't right, we need to know. Your son needs to review this with the SM and ASM. They are the ones trying to set a new tone, it's on them to guide both him and the CM in this new culture. Should the PL be playing catch while other guys are doing the chores he assigns? It depends on the skill of the boys doing the chores. If they need guidance, he may want to be there on top of it. If they seem like they have it under control, he may want to give them their space. Only he, the SPL/ASPL, and the SMs have a good sense of this.
  10. 2 points
    I am a dyed-in-the-wool neckerchief nut. And I probably own more vintage neckerchiefs than anyone. So, here goes. The standard issue neckerchiefs up until the end of the 1930's were 30 x 30 inches. In the 1940's the size was reduced to 29.5 x 29 inches. The triangular - or half - neckerchief came into use in the late 1940's and by the 1950's had completely supplanted the full-squares. I love the really old full-squares. They fit today's larger scouts and scouters, and they can be used for so many purposes. The biggest international scarves that I have encountered are the Indonesian haduks. They are huge triangles and look really neat.
  11. 2 points
    BTW if National asks I still live in Alaska. Here is a recent picture.
  12. 2 points
    Right, because heaven forbid everybody should know what is going on. (That is directed at National, not you.)
  13. 2 points
  14. 2 points
  15. 2 points
    Actually I was grateful they changed it from Camper to Outdoorsman because LDS units like mine don't take Cub Scouts camping (we wait until they are 11 before we get into any program-organized camp outs). Many of my boys before felt odd getting a Camper award for participating in our day-long activities, so Outdoorsman fit the bill better. HOWEVER, "Outdoor Adventurer" is just getting absurd, and it runs into the same silly issue the Scouting Adventure activities encounter - the actual titles are ridiculous to say out-loud! "Hey there, what adventure are your boys working on this month?" "Why, the Scouting Adventure adventure!" "Is there an echo in here?" "And after that we are starting the Outdoor Adventurer adventure!" "There is is again!" Honestly I feel like an idiot repeating myself like this, and as a Webelos leader it happens constantly. They really needed to have an editor come in and look over the names of these adventures before putting out their ridiculous names.
  16. 2 points
    How do I know how many times the TF was warned? I might have seen him once passing by my hammock whittling recklessly ... told him to behave. He says "yes sir" ... and puts on his best behavior ... while he thinks I'm watching. On the way from his patrol site, the SPL may have seen him horsing around with his buddy, knife in hand ... told him to behave. He said "yes sir" ... waited till SPL continued rounds to next patrol. At his patrol campfire, the PL may seen him ... told him to behave. He said "yes sir" ... then took his buddy on a walk away from his patrol site. By his tent, an APL might have seen him ... told him to behave. He said "yes sir" then ... went to his patrol campfire. So, do the PL, SPL, or I Confiscate the knives of every single scout after every single infarction that I see? That would be a lot of knives/saws/axes confiscated. Assume this was a one-off until confirmed otherwise at after-action review with the PLC at cracker barrel, thereby allowing a day to pass with this kid likely to nick the hide of a young @CalicoPenn? Or do I ask to see the Totin' Chip cards of any fey scout to determine if this would be his first or his final warning? And, if first, clip and counsel appropriately. If final, ask if I should secure his blades until he and I can set aside time for an SMC to review knife safety. Common sense tells me leaders should communicate. If you see something say something. The nicks in the card are simply a discrete way of saying it. As always ... Your mileage may vary.
  17. 2 points
    But football is still ok, right? What's the stats on how many people have been hurt in the last ten years in these clubs versus how many have been hurt playing football or basketball? Apparently risk is ok if you generate a lot of revenue.
  18. 2 points
    I had a hunch someone would try to compare pulling a Totin Chip until it could be re-earned with pulling rank. There is a major difference - Totin Chip is not a rank. The policies about once its earned it remains earned does not apply. Totin Chip confers a privilege - though I like your idea of just coaching them and moving on. I'd even suggest that Troops treat the Totin Chip like the Cyber Chip - let them expire every year - and have the Scouts re-earn them. Someone who earns it at 11 could surely use a refresher at 16. I also think that adults that are going to use knives, axes and saws in camp should earn the Totin Chip. It shouldn't be all that difficult and the adults will know the same "rules" as the Scouts - I've seen more adults than youth violate the "rules" taught in Totin Chip.
  19. 2 points
  20. 2 points
    I am amazed that when we set up the axe yard there is always a scout who will chop wood for hours. Every year. And with a full axe even the ADD kids REALLY focus on not chopping their toes off. I do sweat those seasons out though. We have had more injuries with carelessness with knives and hatchets. One boy did so long every campout he earned the nickname of "Axe" and it stuck with him to adulthood.
  21. 2 points
    The thought that removing a corner of the Totin' chip for safety infractions amounts to hazing just blows my mind. When my Cubs earned their whittling chip, they received it with one corner already removed by me... We had a three strikes rule. Minor infractions would result in removing a corner and a little remedial training. If you lost all three corners, you lost the chip and had to redo it to earn another one. Major infractions would have been dealt with differently, but I never had one. Never had a parent complain.
  22. 2 points
    I actually don’t disagree with almost everything you said. There is no reason why adults can not share their knowledge. A child can’t learn unless they learn from adults. How do you think I know all of the things I know today? You think someone my age taught me? I’m assuming you also have somewhat a small troop which is why the adult leaders need to split with the younger scouts. If so, we have the same issues & do the same. We only have 3 older scouts (1 is ready to get Eagle and leave so technically 2). Anyway, the only thing that I disagree with is the adults doing the KP. Come on now... KP doesn’t take that long. Back on topic, my favorite thing in scouting to learn is first aid. (I’m still a youth if you haven’t gotten that yet) I mean it could just be me, but I enjoy doing scenarios with friends, such as stretcher relays, medical scenarios, and ones where you have to think.
  23. 2 points
  24. 2 points
    A girl lead boy scout program will work fine. A boy lead boy scout program works fine. They can use the same content and there is room in the program for them to do what they are interested in. When girl scouts started it was a mirror of the boy scout program and it worked fine.
  25. 2 points
    So far I have had to make minimal changes. One is to modify gender language on the fly. So in some cases an adventure would have me read something about “boys” and I would insert “girls” or “scouts”. The other is to be prepared with more adventure content. That could be due to the smaller den size or that the girls are a bit more focused at this age. The other area I have watched for is interactions between boys and girls. That will be a new dynamic but again shouldn’t require a change to the program. For the life of me I have no idea what else would have to change. I would be interested in specifics on what modification would be sought for girls.
  26. 2 points
    So imagine for a moment if you will. You are a father of a child that wishes to join scouts and there is not a pack in your area. You contact your District leadership and inquire about any packs that plan to open up to your child and they tell you they are considering the option. You wait a few weeks and you contact them again and nothing has developed. You contact them again a few weeks later (it is now late February early March) and they tell you that no packs in your area will be open for your child. So now you widen your search. You ask that same leadership team if there are packs in another district that might accept your child. You are told that there might be one in another district, 30-40 minutes away, two counties over. You look up that pack on the internet and you make contact. That pack replies that they are indeed open to accepting your child. You are excited. Your child is excited. You inquire about the first meetings so you can start blocking off your calendar. You are told that they are still working on getting organized but that more information will be following soon. You wait a week and check again as to the status of the den and there is no confirmation yet from other girls but are told that some are considering. In the meantime, you are asked if you are willing to lead this effort and in your desire to make sure this is a success, you consent to be the Den Leader. You are told to apply online for your scout and yourself and you get started on planning. Another week goes by and still no other girls have joined. That is where we basically are today. Keep in mind, I am just a parent that within the past few weeks, volunteered to lead this effort with a pack we just joined in a completely different district. If the council and the district has a problem with this pack not having more girls per the rules, that is between them, the pack, and the CO - and well above my paygrade. I have enough on my plate trying to develop a good Webelos program with very little time left in the year.
  27. 2 points
    I don’t know Eagle93, National has admitted they brought in girls to save the program from a declining membership. Switch the BSA and GSUSA titles around and your post would be just as believable. The BSA membership numbers have been dropping for many years. Once the influx of girls is stable, National has done nothing I can see that prevents the return of a continued membership decline. A good marketing slogan for the BSA in this moment could be: “Join the BSA, the lesser of two evils”. Barry
  28. 2 points
    imo, treating the taking of a corner of a totin chip card, or asking a group "who's item is this" (where there is no name on it) and the person's who's item it is comes up and gets their lost item (no idea who put words in my mouth about singing or dancing, but I was clearly stating the simple act of asking the group who's item something was so that they could come up and get their gear back is now considered hazing) diminishes the seriousness of actual dehumanizing hazing to the point wolf has been cried so often, no one will care. We are seeing this very thing played out with other social issues... when you lump everything in with serious offenses... nothing is serious and no one cares.
  29. 2 points
    One of my older sons left something on the table. It was part of what he was bringing home as a carry item. But the SPL got it first and would not give it back. Only later as they were assembled to go home did the SPL bring the item up and say that my son left it on the table. He asked my son to sing for it. Watching the physical reaction of my son was very sad. Worse though was I saw him try something like that on someone else at the next camp out so he could do it to them. Perhaps the lesson was intended to be to take responsibility for your stuff, but he already knew that lesson. It's just he was busy doing another part of the cleaning at that moment. Instead, the lesson taught was to look for opportunities to knock the other guy down. To put rules ahead of compassion and friendliness. Because of that ... and knowing the personality of my youngest ... I told him that if it happened to him that he should acknowledge it's his. But if he's asked to sing or something else for it, just tell them to keep the object and he can keep his pride. I didn't want that son learning the lesson the earlier son learned. Yeah, I do consider that innocent singing hazing by my experience and by the definition of what it is. Is cutting a corner hazing? I can see both sides. I'd prefer to share the reminder to be safe. And, if he's not safe, don't let him have a knife.
  30. 2 points
    I usually apply the Show me where that is written rule.
  31. 2 points
    The short answer of course is the same thing that would happen any time you don't have enough adults to conduct an activity --- you either find them or you don't conduct the activity. 1) This seems the least likely and the easiest to avoid or correct. You don't really need a female scouter, you need an adult female who has taken YPT. I don't think I've ever been at a meeting where there wasn't at least one adult female; troops will probably need to get more women to take YPT, but that's a 45 minute online class --- hardly a difficult ask. 2) This one will be harder, but we've had occasional weekends when we couldn't go because we didn't have enough adults; when that happens you just don't go. 3) Harder certainly, but since this is a once a year phenomenon scheduled months in advance it really shouldn't be that difficult. Parents who want their kids to experience scouting are going to make the sacrifices necessary to enable them to experience scouting, that's what happens today. Parents who want their daughters to experience scouting will probably be self selecting as a group willing to make a bit of extra sacrifice to make that happen.
  32. 1 point
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/beyond-cookies-thousands-girls-becoming-cub-scouts-022746762.html You guys have got to read the comment section on this news story. Going by the comments the general public is not on board with what BSA is doing.
  33. 1 point
    Here are some of the smarter comments from the news story comment section: "Never in my life would my daughters be allowed to join Cub Scouts. That's what Brownies and Girl Scouts is for. Guaranteed liberal parents." "This is heart breaking to me. As a single mom to a young boy I know he desperately needs strong male role models guiding him. He's just turned 8, this is the time he needs these men most of all, but now it's not going to happen. Why can't the girls have these activities in Girl Scouts? Girls & boys are equal, but that doesn't mean they are the same. And why would we all want to be?" "If women need and deserve their own spaces, so do men. There is nothing natural about this sort of PC progress, and it WILL backfire." "As a former eagle scout it does me well to know that I have cut off all affiliation with this organization." "I'm a Girl Scout leader and simply put, the Boy Scouts of the USA have stuck with their traditions and life skills program model. GSUSA has lost their way by changing the program so far off course from what made it successful in the first place. They've become too progressive and pushing career focused programs instead of basic life skills like changing a tire. My daughters remain GS's because of our council's canoe team (15 and 10 years respectively) but in reality would have preferred the boy scout program. Also, when you see Boy Scouts you know it because they are in full uniform. As for Girl Scouts? Only at cookie time and even then it's simply a vest. They have so lost their way." "Scouting will become so politicized it will close it's doors ." "The purpose of scouting is not just to learn skills, such as rowing, cooking, etc. It is to prepare the kids to be responsible men and women in society. Having leaders of the same sex and boys bonding with boys (and girls in the girl scouts) is very important in developing their character and identity." "Then it is no longer the boy scouts. It is something else." "This is a great thing, and not because some people think it's PC. Boy Scouts has transitioned to a "family scouting" activity. It involves the entire family that is of scouting age, without the us versus them mentality. In the troop that my family is involved with there is involvement with Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts, and Boy Scouts, without conflict. Our Boy Scout activities include parents, mostly boys and a few girls. So far, the girls are sisters of other scouts. As a mom of sons, it is heartening to see girls learning that skills that my dad taught me. These days, so few girls are taught those things and they are valuable." "If only women were as capable as men at creating and organizing programs that cater to their specific gender. But alas, we found yet another thing men are superior to women at - mentoring and developing kids. Girls don't want to participating in organizations led and organized by women. Interesting....." "Boy Scouts used to be a noble group, training boys to become good team mates, respectful men and self sustaining go getters. Now, sadly, it’s a shell of its former self." "There is a great opportunity here for someone to start a new organization where boys can come together and learn traditional male skills." "What's sad is the notion that girls can't do their own scouts good enough that they have to join the boys." "Any parent of a 13 year old girl that sends them camping with a bunch of 13 year old boys needs to have their heads examined. I was in the Boy Scouts and later an Eagle Scout. It was a great time and we learned many life skills with the scout masters and our fathers. Having girls come to our weekend jamborees would only be a distraction. Why don't the Girl Scouts introduce some activities that the Boy Scouts do?"
  34. 1 point
    Meanwhile. . . http://theweek.com/articles/759527/rise-womenonly-coworking-spaces Women only spaces are becoming more popular.
  35. 1 point
    I would quit your troop within a week if I had to sit through that. I would rather be taught and have actually someone making eye contact with me instead of everyone falling asleep, just like in school.
  36. 1 point
    You sir are correct. Here is a link to the marketing group photos. http://tidewaterbsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/ Scout with glasses original photo. Another Scout in above photo shoot.
  37. 1 point
    So I had two corners cut off my totenchip when I was a scout. I wasn't traumatized. A little embarrassed, yes. I learned my lesson and pressed forward, somehow managing to become a functioning, productive citizen. What's different in 2018?
  38. 1 point
    My scoutmaster always said if your scout book did not fall apart you were not reading it enough.
  39. 1 point
  40. 1 point
    Now if only they hadn't watered down the requirements, the name "Camper" would still work.
  41. 1 point
    My new scouts always love learning how to use hand axes (hatchets) for splitting logs. Not the most vital skill but one of the most fun!
  42. 1 point
    As a parent who has raised both genders, I beg to differ. They both need equal amounts of love, care, and discipline. But epual and identical are two different things.
  43. 1 point
    I think this is a wise policy to act confident and magnanimous towards other youth scouting programs. Getting nasty will only hurt the BSA brand name.
  44. 1 point
    Considering I know who wrote that comment on the blog and heard him talk about it, I can tell you it was made to show how BSA policies and literature is constantly changing, contradictory and confusing. One BSA official document, Bryan's Blog, is NOT stating that the practice of cutting corners of TOTIN" CHIP ( emphasis) is being denied. And many Packs use those policies in absence of specific Cub Scout ones, or to help Webelos transition to Boy Scouts. But then a change is made in another BSA document, 2017 BALOO Syllabus, stating that you cannot cut corners on Whittling Chip. As a former trainer, I can see where all these constant changes can cause confusion, especially for former Cub Scout leaders who are now Boy Scouters and are still following Cub Scout policies and not Boy Scout policies. I just checked out the current ITOLS syllabus, and no prohibition on cutting corners is in there. Regarding cutting corners as a form of hazing, please explain to me how talking to a Scout about a minor infraction and cutting a corner to serve as a reminder to do better is hazing? I admit singing for lost items is pushing it IMHO, but anyone who has been a pledge for a fraternity/sorority knows what hazing truly is. Anyone who has been to a service academy, or been through boot camp knows what hazing truly is. Cutting corners is not hazing.
  45. 1 point
    1. Cub scouts is not Boy Scouts. Nor is Whittling Totin'. But, this may be @Gwaihir's instructor's source of confusion. The privilege of greater accountability comes with moving up in the big leagues. 2. It's a card. In a kid's pocket (hopefully in a wallet ). It's likely to not survive the boy's tenure. If he damages it, should we call him out for hazing himself? Not every negative action is hazing. 3. We are not interested in collecting/sequestering knives and axes. We want scouts to hold onto them and keep working with them, making the world a better place in the process. 4. Some people see permanent damage. Others personal growth. The thing about those clipped corners? Scouts actually look at cards and compare how they've been cut. In looking at them, they sometimes read what's on them. BTW - after the first summer camp, I rarely see boys commit safety violations. (The catapult lofting empty water bottles at my tent being a rare, and admirable, exception.) I keep an open offer to replace any cut cards with whole ones. So far no takers.
  46. 1 point
    It is not "Hazing" if done properly and if the result is expected. Every government agency, every company or organization big enough to be concerned about public performance or safety and accidents has standards of behavior, and consequences for not following those standards. Cause an accident? Neglect a responsibility? Reprimand in file, day(s) off work , forfeited annual leave,,,, Every state requires standards of behavior to drive a car, a truck, own a gun, practice medicine. Fail to follow those standards, lose something.... Throw a knife? Drop an axe? Threaten another human with a sharp tool? Lose a privilege. In the Adult World, it is called "Progressive Discipline". It is not hazing. BUT>>> Requiring a Scout to sing, IN PUBLIC, to HUMILIATE himself IN PUBLIC to regain his/her property, that is hazing.... PRAISE in public, DISCIPLINE, COUNSEL, ADVISE in private..... Scouts will emulate, copy, expect what they see their adult leaders do. They will copy, emulate, try to outdo, pass on ("well, he did it to me....") what they see, hear, from their SPL, ASPL, PL.... SO, DO AS I SAY< NOT AS I DO ? I don't think so.
  47. 1 point
    ...and maybe they should think about adult leader availability before going co-ed.
  48. 1 point
    Other ideas: 4) Do not keep changing requirements on various things. They completely changed the CS adavancement less that 18 months they new requirements went into effect. They changed requirements for Second and First Class months after the revision. For cooking MB, the requirements changed something like 5 times in 7 year; one changed occured months after a previous change! 5) make the Webelos Program less Cub Scout and more Boy Scout. I am seeing so many ill prepared Webelos crossing over, then leaving. I do not know why this is happening, whether the current training is poor, or people do not care and want to continue doing things the way they arr comfortable with. But I am seeing those packs that continue to treat their Webelos as Cub Scouts, and not preparing them for Boy Scouts by increasing standards and upping the ante so to speak as the having the most new Scouts quitting.
  49. 1 point
    It can fairly be said that Bill's success in selling West on the Patrol Method is marked by the publication in 1929 of the first Handbook for Patrol Leaders, written primarily by Bill. One assumes that Bill saw that the primary issue in the success of the new format was adult acceptance. In 1930 we wrote, although not officially credited with authorship, a Service Library pamphlet The Patrol Method, Patrol Helps for Scoutmasters, clearly a pitch to adults on the Patrol Method.
  50. 1 point
    Can we do this in time for World Jambo! I think this would be Arrow of Light or whatever terrible name for Webelos II there is now.