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  1. One is an element of the bankruptcy Plan. That’s the Disclosure Statement. The other, discovery, is a general element of litigation, taking various forms, that is one party going on a spelunking expedition to mine data and statements from another party. Let’s call it legal “Go Fish.” Each in turn: The disclosure statement is a document that must contain information concerning the assets, liabilities, and business affairs of the debtor sufficient to enable a creditor to make an informed judgment about the debtor's plan of reorganization. https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy/b
    6 points
  2. Some of you may have heard the sound of a thunk this morning. It was probably the noise made by moderators as a couple of us worked diligently to ... moderate. All of the moderators attempt to watch the postings as often as we can to keep this forum functioning with appropriate and useful content. I am surprised how often I see a moderator checking the forum at 2am. Maybe it says something about our insomnia. Unfortunately, we are needing to delete or hide some of the posts. Bottom line they are just not Scout-like. We know that there is a lot of passion around some of the topics. An
    6 points
  3. Interesting status in the Purdue Pharma case. I've been following the journalist from WSJ who covers both this case and the BSA. There are parallels as there are channeling injunctions. In addition, both cases, the US Trustee has been fighting the plans. Now, in the Purdue Pharma case, the US Trustee (DOJ) is attempting to stop the decision. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/16/us/politics/sackler-bankruptcy-plan.html Kosnoff tweeted about this as well ... but the US Trustee has been ignored in the BSA case for a long time. He has been consistent that he sees the Plan 4, 3
    4 points
  4. Standing is a matter for a court to decide. It requires a hearing to demonstrate standing. Regardless, anyone can sue anyone at any time for any thing. Will they win? Who knows. Will it be tossed out on summary judgement? Maybe. Do they have a right to be heard? Yes. Will some of us be twice “barred” without a chance to be heard, preemptively, if votes are not universally allowed? Yes. If I have a fraudulent concealment case that is not heard because I am preemptively kicked to the curb since the three states in which I was abused are “closed,” is that a denial of my rights? Yes. Immoral? Yes.
    4 points
  5. This one puzzling aspect of the bankruptcy: time barred claims being given any consideration whatsoever. I don't believe that the bankruptcy judge can make time-barred claims viable again. If the SOL has expired, time-barred claims are barred, and that is it, that is, at least as a matter of judicial compulsion. Having no legal interest in the bankruptcy proceeding, they do not have standing, and should have no vote. (Hence, my belief that claims should be vetted for viability prior to any vote.) Insurance companies won't support any payment by them to time-barred claimants.
    4 points
  6. On Monday, September 20, the United Methodist Ad Hoc Committee on the BSA bankruptcy has stated that it will provide an update on the mediations that have been underway for months. The approximately dozen member committee is comprised of a team of legal advisors, representatives from the United Methodist Men’s group which oversees Scouting programs for the UMC and is headed by a bishop. Their goal has been to attempt to find a way forward that is fair to victims, protects the church and allows Scouting to continue as a ministry within the UMC. Members of the ad hoc committee have describ
    3 points
  7. And according to their website they have three council offices. So from four to two camps, but keep three offices. That is what scouting has become in many councils. The office.
    3 points
  8. This announcement illustrates for me the single biggest governance failure that is rampant in scouting --- complete lack of transparency and forthrightness. There is absolutely no explanation provided as to why this decision was made --- zip, zilch, nada, nothing. A pat on the head and and an instruction to run along and play, trust us we know what's best for everybody. ETA, and this from a council that had a rebellion of CORs a few years back when they announced, again without explanation, that they were going to sell off another camp ---, Owasippe. They have learned nothing and chan
    3 points
  9. Wouldn't it be sadly ironic if we all turned down the $3500 and THAT turned out to be a better deal?
    3 points
  10. Agree. The Hartford settlement put the lie to there being billions more from carriers. Century Chubb will never pay more one an exposure basis than Hartford. Maybe a billion but that’s it. The Coalition is only in this for their own personal gain. The claimants aren’t stupid. Get BSA out of the equation and take aim at the others in state court where the balance of leverage shifts. It’s the only way to extract fair value which is on a state by state, council by council, CO by CO basis. 5.0 has no chance. If BSA was smart it would immediately revert to the toggle. Going forw
    3 points
  11. egads! I could imagine someone losing a degree of sanity simply from having to complete all of those test and scales and inventories - nevermind being made to think about how this is making you feel or that is making you react. For me, this whole bankruptcy process has felt like it's been dragging on and on and on - and I am not a claimant. I'm glad that you have a therapist and that your therapist wants to take the time to get a good assessment of how you are doing. (I'm not so glad to hear that you are in less-than-stellar shape.) So, @ThenNow - to you and all the other surv
    3 points
  12. I have been hearing of councils that don't want to serve as the chartering org as well. That's something for BSA to resolve though in its reorg plan I would think.
    3 points
  13. Sure is. No one says what the LCs are offering is what will be accepted. In addition several councils I know in their letters of intent to pay into the settlement specifically said it was conditioned on global settlement that includes them (obviously they are not paying if they are not covered). So mediation is totally relevant and the fact that LCs are saying “we will pay X” is not the last word in the subject.
    3 points
  14. From a non-litigator with only two such cases under his stretched belt, the issue is being raised incorrectly. The SoL is a defense to a lawsuit, not a bar from filing. Again, any one any time for any thing. This is what Muttsy was referring to more than once back when. As he explained better than I and maybe he’ll do it again, the immense cost and hassle for insurers and/or other BSA, LC and CO defendants, to potentially “defend” innumerable state lawsuits in which they may very well have a viable defense of time-bar, is no small matter. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong. I promise to ta
    3 points
  15. If a UMC is switching to a Facilities Use Agreement only relationship, then the unit will need a new Chartering Organization, such as a VFW or your Local Council.
    3 points
  16. Yes, as soon as it was available. I posted somewhere earlier that before we condemn the D, E, & I training or the MB (whatever it ends up being called) we should spend a few minutes to do the training. I saw absolutely nothing in that presentation that I found objectionable.
    3 points
  17. Ours has already informed us that we will move to the facilities model. Other than that, they assure us that they still consider us part of their ministry, just under a different format. Since we have out centennial in December, and just got a girl troop started, that is a positive note. We had an event last Sunday in which we helped and had a small presence, and all the elder congregation were thrilled to see us, as they usually are. It will really not make a huge difference.
    3 points
  18. https://www.scouter.com/topic/31928-chapter-11-announced/page/24/ 6/9/2020 a post by Eagle1993 Mediator team now set. Kevin J. Carey … Timothy Gallagher and Paul Finn on the mediation panel, with Judge Silverstein ruling out one of the Boy Scouts' choices to serve on the panel as a group of insurers raised concerns about potential conflicts of interest involving his selection. "What we are looking for is true neutrality," Judge Silverstein said. ... The Boy Scouts have 275 sex abuse claims pending against the parent organization as well as more than 1,000 addition
    2 points
  19. (1) News reports of at least five dioceses distancing themselves from Scouting. The ones Cynical mentioned plus New Orleans and Portland on the upper West Coast. (2) Local rumblings among the Roman Catholic units (3) Roman Catholic committee and UMC ad hoc are obviously in close communication and coordination. Would not be surprised to see the RC group take a very similar direction A lot of moving parts ...
    2 points
  20. Agree that Scout Skills are best "taught" in the context of doing real Scouting activities on campouts not so much in isolation. Often a little friendly competition helps. Cooking - have a patrol cooking competition. Define one meal as having to be cooked on the open fire (also teaches firecraft) Knots & Lashings - have a patrol competition for the best campsite gadget - maybe a pot holder for the cooking competition above? Or who can build the biggest tower that will support a Scout. Or can fire a tennis ball the furthest? (Assuming BSA hasn't banned catapults and trebuchets)
    2 points
  21. 2 points
  22. Modern tents are almost knot free. Teaching scouts to make a shelter with tarp and ropes gives them a life skill.
    2 points
  23. There is “difficult” to overcome the statue of limitations and there is impossible. That scale came in from the TCC lawyers professional opinion on what the real possibility was to find a way around the limitations. Places like Alabama were listed as “closed”: no chance. Etc.
    2 points
  24. The Judge's fixation on the Local Council's was unexpected. Third-party releases are quite the concern nowadays. We should all remember that this was a DISCLOSURE hearing and nothing more. Can a judge approve disclosure for a faulty plan that has legal issues? Yes. THOSE are decided at a later date. I know. Illogical.
    2 points
  25. People of integrity, selling whatever it is they're selling, don't do things like that. Every time I deal with a vendor who undersells I make a huge deal out of pointing out what it means to me. Last week I had a guy bidding garage doors and openers. Mine are 21 years old, dated and the openers have put in for Social Security (eligible in garage door opener years.) When I asked him about this really expensive set up, wanting to never do this again, his answer said it all. "Well. I think that's overkill and you don't need it and probably won't ever use it." Sold. One of my friends is part of a
    2 points
  26. And my follow up would be: Just how many were induced to join in filing a claim BECAUSE of the high dollars that were pitched? Perhaps if the dollars were more realistic to begin with, borderline claims may have never been filed, leaving the limited funds to be distributed to a smaller pool.
    2 points
  27. They will always couch it with "up to" "as high as", "prior victims got as much as". They cannot guarantee specific amounts or levels, but they can couch it. That's why the comment from one of the aggregators "Our target is at least $100,000". Sure it is. My target's the moon. Doesn't mean I have any reasonable chance of making it if I jump real high.
    2 points
  28. Some have said there's not fraud in this case, other than a limited area identified by that poster. I think that remains to be seen. If true, smells like fraudulent inducement to me. I have zippo words for how I feel as a human, never mind attorney and BSA child sexual abuse survivor, about what is being alleged by the insurers. If true, it's reprehensible.
    2 points
  29. Just curious: To you lawyer types..... Is it tantamount to legal malpractice to draw in clients with pitches of hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars when there may only be like $5k? It just seems so egregiously negligent. The wounds this has ripped open for everyone is a high price to pay for the way this has played out. It would not surprise me to hear that more than a couple of victims end up going over the edge. The whole thing is so disappointing. At this juncture, they might just as well approve the best terms and divide it up among valid claimants. Doesn't seem like th
    2 points
  30. Not sure how that pertains to my post. Please explain.
    2 points
  31. Yes, BSA is LYING about Dodgeball. The Ban went into effect in 2018, and even after the Dodgeball ban, you could still find Dodgeball and several variants on scouting.org website as recommended games.
    2 points
  32. That number is self-proclaimed by the Coalition and the BSA uses it to its benefit. Stang just went there...the Coalition wants this over because it stands to gain $400 million plus from settlements.
    2 points
  33. They have been singing the same tune for this entire time: 1) BSA is running out of money 2) Give us a deal or else pension guarantee Corp comes in and takes everything 3) if the TCC really cares about all victims it will do anything it can to keep this out of state courts where some/most victims will walk away with nothing
    2 points
  34. This is precisely the correct observation. Years ago, I reviewed many of the governance documents pertaining to National, Districts, and units. They are a study in vagueness, ambiguity, and unworkable incompleteness-not a comprehensive governing plan. I was unimpressed. So, units, 100% in my experience, have no formal, legal. structure. They are "unincorporated associations." My state has laws pertaining to the formation, operation, governance of business corporations, not-for-profit corporations, professional corporations, banking corporations, general partnerships,
    2 points
  35. Scouts UK now has a Squirrels program starting at age 4. It's only a matter of time before the BSA acts on the realization that they are missing out on this additional year of collecting dues instead of waiting until they are 5-year-old Kindergarteners. i skipped the Lions year with my daughter. I still feel Tigers is even too young. 2nd grade is the ideal minimum age to start scouting. On the original subject of cost, my Pack does one unified neckerchief for all ranks. I don't require my dens have the handbooks, everything is available online. And we don't require the uniform pants.
    2 points
  36. An easy and cheap way is to use painters drop canvas (not splattered with paint of course). Cut a swath out that is about twice the depth of the longest knife and wide enough to accommodate the number of knives you need ( about the width + 4 inches for each of the knives you plan to roll laid side by side - I wouldn't put more than 6 or so in one roll). Lay the longest knife on the roll about about 3 inches from left edge, place it so that it is centered depth wise, then place the remaining knives about 2-3 inches apart so they are laid out left to right with the tips facing you. Once they a
    2 points
  37. @RememberSchiff I was waiting for you to post this, you are a great news finder. However, thought I'd get the pulse of the list on this release from yesterday: https://www.scouts.ca/news-and-events/news/2021/09/scouts-canada-introduces-vaccination-requirement-for-all-members Link to the FAQ's at the bottom of the announcement. For those that have not seen it the BSA's current position can be found here: https://www.scouting.org/coronavirus/ "...We encourage everyone to consult with their physician and get vaccinated. It is our best hope for returning to normalcy in our Scou
    2 points
  38. Wouldn't the liability concerns for any future charter though be the same as for any old charter? The UMC COs that are switching to facilities use around here are doing so because they don't trust the liability situation and coverage going forward with BSA. It's not just child abuse concerns either but what would happen if there was an injury claim or some other problem. The BSA has a lot of the traditional COs completely rattled and spooked and from where I sit it doesn't look like those reactions are without cause. An organization they trusted for decades and took at their word because of th
    2 points
  39. Stenulson's declaration. This is going to be devastating. Details about the claims were made up: "Sometimes we were told to change the details of a caller's story in order to make their claims see more viable, but I was not comfortable with that directive." Blank claims had the signatures of claimants forged. Specifically, the signature that the claimant used ON THEIR CONTRACT WITH AIS OR OTHER LAWFIRMS were then cut-and-pasted onto the Proof of Claim. Claimants who had changed their minds were told their claims would be removed. They weren't. Duplicate claims were fil
    2 points
  40. The purpose if this thread is lost on me. I understand, and mostly agree, that judging history with a modern moral code can skew history itself. But throughout its history, the klan was out of step with the moral code of its time. I was born in the 60's and grew up in the 70's and 80's in Birmingham Al, a hot spot for civil rights strife. I have know klansmen in my life, virtually all hid the fact they were in the klan, which tells me even they knew how heinous their ideas were. I have literally had physical confrontation with them as they attacked my friends. Once I found out som
    2 points
  41. All councils should have been more open with communication during the process. Some communicated well, but most were silent or gave a general statement with no details. Communication as a whole is not the BSA's strong point.
    2 points
  42. Not sure if your comment was tongue in cheek...I hope it was. That same link says more than 600,000 died of the 1918 Flu (no longer PC to call it the "Spanish Flu"). I have a Masters in Public Health, a 40+ year career in various aspects of Public Health and my wife is an RN. Getting the jab was never a question and we stood in line as soon as we could secure an appointment. Wife just had her 3rd booster shot due to an immuno-suppressant medication she is taking. It knocked her for a loop for 2 days, unlike the first 2 doses which were no worse than the annual flu shot. We also got
    2 points
  43. Judge Likely to Rule for Boy Scouts in Trademark Case With Girl Scouts
    2 points
  44. Well, it just might be closer to 13.8% and explain why the TCC is saying "enough is enough" and coming out swinging. OK, for the data-geeks, a VERY deep dive on this gives additional perspective from a friendly accountant looking over my shoulder. His comment: The percentages in the summary appear to be mathematically correct based on the amounts reported by the BSA; however, it is important to remember that amounts reported in Exhibit 1 for “Land Buildings & Equipment” are book value. As a result, in most (if not all) cases the percentages calculated in the summary you shared are a
    2 points
  45. BSA has 637 CSA claims 2010 and later. USA Gymnastics has a total of just over 500 claims.
    2 points
  46. Canada is also a completely different country. They are used to socialized medicine and while some segments will still fuss, it is not like here. Look at how quickly they went from 0% vaccinated to 70% plus once they had vaccine. I think all pressure should be brought to bear on all eligible people to be vaccinated through the means cited by Eagle1993 but I think BSA has to stick with its policy for now.
    2 points
  47. There is no moral equivalence between our US military possibly killing innocent people when targeting groups who are our enemy and the Ku Klux Klan who bombed churches because black people worship there. Take that crap somewhere else.
    2 points
  48. I'm 99% sure it was 40% which was mentioned in a TCC townhall. That is why I was shocked the Hartford settlement was so low. It really cuts the legs out of any real major payment to claimants. I wish BSA didn't have that initial Hartford settlement. Without that, I think this deal would be much closer to finalizing.
    2 points
  49. From what I understand ... many lawyers and claimants were told they could expect big payouts from insurance companies. Think $XB or even $XXB. What they are seeing from a major insurance company is <$1B ... which is making them reconsider and may then demand more money from other sources (LCs, BSA and COs).
    2 points
  50. It was always, always, always a hard legal sell as to why the LCs (who are neither debtors nor creditors in the BSA bankruptcy) should be able to use BSA's bankruptcy to solve or resolve claims against the LCs. That has been one of the longest running objections and one of the main ones lodged by the U.S. Trustee. If the LCs want to be protected from past claims, they should be filing their own bankruptcies, not trying to climb aboard BSA's. Why should a victim have his claims against the LCs voided/prohibited from going into state court if the LCs are not the ones in their own bankr
    2 points
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