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  1. We're going to split the ch11.x thread in 2. The original will be kept as it was intended, for the legal aspects of the case and everything else will go here. In a nutshell, if the judge is dealing with the details of it or the lawyers are arguing over it, it goes in the old thread. Everything else goes here. That means if it's about what's morally correct vs legally correct, it goes here. If it's about the future of the chartered orgs, it goes here. If it's about what the BSA knew when, it goes here. If it's about healing, it goes here. If it's about what YP should look like, it goes here.
    8 points
  2. @Gilwell_1919 I want to respond to this, but in the proper thread, which is this one. Let's be clear what Kosnoff has said. 1) He had stated that scouting should continue. He's repeated that over and over, but that scouting needs to continue WITHOUT BSA. 2) If you found an organization that had, for 100+ years, aided and abetted in the systematic sexual assault of children AND either a) did nothing or b) did not much, I think a reasonable reaction would be "this organization is so corrupt as to be unsalvagable. Start anew." That, to my ear, is Kosnoff's point. I am not saying
    8 points
  3. As an old fart, I have a rule regarding volunteering for committees - if the committee does not have a funded budget and I do not have a vote on its spending, I do not serve on that committee. I find it saves my time. @CynicalScouter Agree. If only the BSA did not allow any secret organizations as part ot its program and its organization. Another $0.02,
    7 points
  4. I also was abused at home. Best thing my father ever did was leave. Scouting was my safe place, and all of the adults were positive role models who i can never thank enough. They showed me positive ways of acting and behaving, guided me, and mentored me. Over the years I have encountered many with similar and worse situations. So this is hard on everyone.
    7 points
  5. By the end of the week we will be at 80 Scouts. 2 years ago going into School Night for Scouting we had 12 Scouts. Its been an interesting ride thus far.
    6 points
  6. @David CO Sometimes, things end up being what you weren't trying to do. You may not think that your troop was a safe place, that you didn't adopt any of the scouts, and that it wasn't a big brother program. Some of your scouts might disagree. For some, a safe place is somewhere that people don't hit them and yell at them for no reason. A place where people listen when they talk and a place that gives them even a tiny bit of time and attention.
    6 points
  7. If I were a former CO, I wouldn’t sign the Facility Use Agreement. I would just treat the unit like any other outside group and have the unit sign MY facility use agreement.
    6 points
  8. Why would a former CO believe a BSA Facility Use Agreement would protect them when the Charter Agreements they have signed and the promises that were made to them are not being upheld now?
    6 points
  9. Yeah, that's not quite how it worked in the asbestos claims. Bankruptcy is a federal action and the bankruptcies for that were nationwide just like this one; and any claims as of the discharge were wiped away, regardless of SOL. Those companies that went back for second or third bankruptcies did it because new claims, resulting from illnesses that began after the discharge would start accumulating. Anyone who isn't aware that child abuse is a risk anywhere at this point is never going to learn no matter how prolific you make the warnings. The belief that "It won't happen to m
    5 points
  10. Sorry to butt in, I'm 7 pages behind but, please read this before you reply to anything. we're splitting this thread in 2. This thread will remain as a discussion about the legal aspects of ch 11. Everything else will go to a new thread: it's better explained there. I doubt if the moderators have the energy to sift through 50 pages and split this but we might try and split out the last day or so.
    5 points
  11. Our troop had a reputation for being a safe place for many reasons. One reason was it was safe for scouts to make wrong choices and not be shamed for it. Wrong choices were considered a requirement for character growth. But we also had a reputation where scouts were physically and mentally safe. Several families with physically and mentally handicapped sons picked our troop because of our reputation. We also had active scouts who were there because it was safe from mental and physical abuse at home. just from the number of scouts in our troop who used our program as a safe refug
    5 points
  12. The reason time barred claims are being allowed, indeed solicited, as part of the bankruptcy, is that the intent of this, or any other bankruptcy is to discharge all of the organization's debts, even if they haven't completely ripened yet. Specifically, BSA knows that not only does it have potential financial liability to claimants who are newly empowered by changes in SOL periods, it also knows that it faces potential ongoing liability if/when more states change their SOLs. Let's say that all time barred claims were stricken, and only currently open state claims were allowed to be p
    5 points
  13. it's not entirely accurate to say the attorneys' job is to maximize the amount their clients get. An attorney's duty is to zealously represent their client. Whether that means maximizing a monetary award is for the client to determine. if a client wants his attorney to advocate for a settlement that awards compensation equally regardless of the SOL differences among claimants then the attorney is duty bound to advocate for that irrespective of their view of the wisdom of it or what effect it might have on the attorney's well being. One of the challenges of contingency representation is
    5 points
  14. GOOD GOD....I got some time at work and said "Well, let's see what the forum is up to and....BAM. My takeaway: Gilwell, as you've discovered, this forum tries its hardest to deal in facts. As the Hollywood Producer Robert Evans said "There are three truths, yours, mine and THE truth, and all three are correct." I don't know what you heard or were told but the reality is that the BSA DID NOT EVER direct claimants to AIS or any other law firm. Period. Did AIS reach out to your scouts like it has others because you can buy lists of former scouts from data analytics companies and say the
    5 points
  15. This is why I don't promote HAs. I organize large trips to remote location and make sure it is done in the most inexpensive way possible. Next year, we are flying a group of experienced scouts to remote places in Alaska for two weeks of real back-country trekking. All that will need to be covered is food costs because I have networked enough to get everything else donated. Youth shouldn't be restricted by economics. And yes, I put my money where my mouth is because scouting taught me to do the right thing when no one is looking. 😉
    5 points
  16. That's the term that continues to frighten me. If bankruptcy, chartered partners leaving, councils selling camps, Summit costs, or local councils folding do not kill the Scouts BSA program, surely "Family Scouting" will be the death of it. This concept goes against the whole program. Not saying family camping as a concept is bad, good for families to get out and do things together, you don't need an organization to go and do that. It's just that the patrol method, Scouts getting experiential learning on how to lead things by themselves, having the opportunity to fail, having the oppo
    5 points
  17. This is not unique to national scouters. Over a hundred thousand of our good citizens serve on city councils, school boards, park boards, library boards, etc.. It can be a thankless task. It can draw criticism, both deserved and undeserved. These local bodies conduct open meetings, and the names of their members are made public. BSA could do the same. I don't buy the argument that BSA needs to operate in such secrecy.
    5 points
  18. All states have mandatory reporting that may have a time period (some number of years after the incident occurred). The BSA and local councils (LC) expected, based on historical reporting, 8,000 to 12,000. More than about 25,000 was not felt to be a likely result. Obviously, the number of claims filed far exceeded those expectations. So i those claims included new reports of child sexual abuse in the LCs. Those new ones had to be reported by law if in the reporting period. People have accused the BSA of not reporting incidents that could be child sexual abuse. We all would expect
    5 points
  19. Standing is a matter for a court to decide. It requires a hearing to demonstrate standing. Regardless, anyone can sue anyone at any time for any thing. Will they win? Who knows. Will it be tossed out on summary judgement? Maybe. Do they have a right to be heard? Yes. Will some of us be twice “barred” without a chance to be heard, preemptively, if votes are not universally allowed? Yes. If I have a fraudulent concealment case that is not heard because I am preemptively kicked to the curb since the three states in which I was abused are “closed,” is that a denial of my rights? Yes. Immoral? Yes.
    4 points
  20. This one puzzling aspect of the bankruptcy: time barred claims being given any consideration whatsoever. I don't believe that the bankruptcy judge can make time-barred claims viable again. If the SOL has expired, time-barred claims are barred, and that is it, that is, at least as a matter of judicial compulsion. Having no legal interest in the bankruptcy proceeding, they do not have standing, and should have no vote. (Hence, my belief that claims should be vetted for viability prior to any vote.) Insurance companies won't support any payment by them to time-barred claimants.
    4 points
  21. Certainly agree. There is no science to a straw poll so even if some particular response is overwhelmingly selected, it means absolutely nothing. It could agitate people as those who believe that nothing less than chapter 7 for the BSA, LC's, CO's, and maybe insurance companies is the least that should be done as contrasted to those who want a sooner rather than later decision and would consider accepting some version of the BSA RSA proposals. Those who have not been abused and are Scouters will wish claimants to be compensated but will likely wish less severe financial payments. Let
    4 points
  22. Yes, these things did happen and were dealt with as well, though maybe not as soon as they should have been in some cases. Over the years, there have been instances of drunk leaders, leaders carrying firearms with not proper licenses, leaders and parents doing caravaning, even after it was recommended not to, units still driving kids in the backs of trucks and with improper insurance, or even none. These are all things that have happened and often were likely not even reported. But they are also reflective of what many in the larger population do regularly as well, in their jobs, in their i
    4 points
  23. Catholics ate fish on Fridays, so I would argue that we were the SOLE religious denomination.
    4 points
  24. A large board is in the 20 range most of the time. If BSA was successful, it wouldn't be an issue. We have 70 board members with no info. UK Scouting has 21 board members and I can read their discussion about growth and actions they are taking. The BSA board structure is a joke and provides no real oversight, no transparency. We are bankrupt and shedding scouts. UK is worried about 0.3% growth in 2020. They are posting their discussion points on the web. I'm sorry, but there is no defense of our National Executive Board or whatever they are called. They are hiding and have been hi
    4 points
  25. Isn't is sad and pathetic that there is absolutely no way to see a list of any of this in scouting.org? I can pull the 2020 board from the IRS 990s and the top/senior officers. https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/2019BSA_Form990_publicdisclosure-1.pdf But right now, on scouting.org, there is no way for me as a unit level leader to see a list of ANYONE other than the National Key-3.
    4 points
  26. I personally welcome anyone who wishes to disagree with me to do so. The only thing that I ask is for an explanation why. I may be wrong and I am not afraid to admit when I am. All of this is a learning experience for me. I am appreciative of what most people have to say hear and I love when I see facts and figures. I also reserve the right to disagree with anyone on this forum but I will as best as I can to let you know why.
    4 points
  27. I guess therein the lies the interpretation aspect. Given Tim K.'s viscerally negative words and tone, irrespective to his duty to his clients, to me at least, sounds different in my ear. From my perspective, I am hearing "burn it down, make it go away". Looking at your perspective "burn it down, rebuild something new"... I can support that notion. I would venture to say most of the scouters in this forum are concerned with "what happens after all of this is over"... and I got the impression that Tim K. was more interested in a "General Sherman total warfare" approach wherein winning and the d
    4 points
  28. Ok, I moved some of the non legal discussion to the other thread.
    4 points
  29. @Mattr and all the other moderators ... Thank you for all you do. .... I'd say thank you also in the CH11 thread, but it's not strictly about the legalese of the case.
    4 points
  30. One problem with intense litigation: … it discourages voluntary reporting. But, from what I’ve come to understand, it depends. Formidable predators (let’s consider the adult serial rapist) may get their start at an early age … but avoid getting caught at the time. Some (not all) homosexuals who’ve talked to me about their history became sexually active at an early age with young women or men just a couple of years older. It is taken as gospel by those with a permissive sexual ethic that young people either have sex or talk about it or share images/videos about it a lot … ofte
    4 points
  31. As mentioned before in this thread, allow 18 year old seniors to be registered as youth. While that doesn't help 19 or 20 year olds, it addresses the biggest issue. I would have the rule be for Scouts BSA Youth change to: Youth can join Scouts BSA if they have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old, OR have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old, OR are age 11 but have not reached 18 OR have not completed 12 grade and are under 19 years. To age into Scouts BSA: Complete 5th grade and at least 10 years old Earned AOL and at le
    4 points
  32. There's some really interesting stuff there from Barry. Here in the UK scouts is fully coed and what Barry says rings true. While of course there are exceptions as a very broad brush comment girls tend to be better at getting something right first time, boys though tend to be better at fixing it when it goes wrong. So put them on a pioneering project and the girls may well come up with a beautifully lashed contraption quicker. However watch for those projects that suddenly don't work and it tends to be the boys that figure out the work around. That is not to say coed scouts doesn't w
    4 points
  33. No. Yes. Yes. The guys at national are idiots.
    4 points
  34. Not sure ChildUSA is fair about this ... Example: Calling out old communal spaces like showers, but ignoring that schools required nude showers for all youth as part of gym class and that all YMCAs then ... and still do ... have communal shower spaces. In my twenty years of scouts, no adult has been in a communal shower with youth. In the last five years, showers have changed from communal to individual. Example: Inferring church basements are some dark potentially dangerous place, but ignoring such spaces exist everywhere. Ever been to a shopping mall. My youth was littered w
    4 points
  35. I understand the point and I agree there was a broader issue in society. But right now, BSA is the only organization ever to have anything close to 84,000 claims of sex abuse. So, if this is a problem everywhere, why doesn’t 4H, Girl Scouts, Big Brothers, YMCA, the Boys Club, etc, have tens of thousands of claims? The reason is that for decades, the BSA was the best organization to join if you were a pedophile. It is horrible to think of, but pedophiles figured out if you are a scoutmaster you can go out into the woods with prepubescent boys and get away with your sick fantasies.
    4 points
  36. Not to be argumentative, but it is hard to say "The BSA had no safeguards in place for prevention period." While also saying "Anyone could be a volunteer unless the name you were using was in the files". The IVF may not have been the best system in the world, but it was an attempt to keep people out of the program. Fifty years ago we could not do the kind of background checks we can now. While I am sure that there were people who found a way around being in the IVF, there was no fool proof method back then of insuring it would never happen. I will not try to say that things were alway
    4 points
  37. I occasionally still hear from a young man, once a boy, that fit that description. He remained in the unit for close to 4 years, often not around, but coming back and enjoying, with a lot of other scouts' help, outings and such. He lived with his alcoholic father who often beat him badly, yet he stood up for his father if anyone said anything. It was hard for me to understand that defense mechanism, especially when it came to my attention that very often he stayed with other scouts when his father was on a binge. He was part of our troop, no matter what, and he still notes on occasion that
    4 points
  38. First Dr. Kennedy’s encoded shoutout, now this! I know what to do. Since I used to manage artists and such, I will take on myself doubling my client base. My firm is booming! Pah. I wonder if I should engage a copy editor for my new client. Hm. Managing a big practice is complex and exhausting.
    4 points
  39. @IWasAbusedinScoutingI'm sorry for what happened to you and your troopmates. I hope you find this forum welcoming and compassionate. The situation the BSA currently faces is particularly difficult for me. As a child, I was severely abused and neglected at home. Scouting was my safe place. I hope that's what it will be in the future for any youth who wants to participate.
    4 points
  40. Okay everyone, while I appreciate the added pages, so we can get to 100 and find some new info about the court case, everyone keeps repeating the same thing. Gilwell is waiting, cynical doesn't believe it. So, give it a break. Its Friday and if you're living in an area without smoke, flooding or covid, go enjoy your weekend. For the other 95% of you, try meditation.
    4 points
  41. Nowhere does any of that mention AIS. Your claims was that BSA was directing claimants to AIS. That photo doesn't show that. Neither does the AIS professional employment agreement. Again, that's not what you claimed. You claimed that BSA/National had said that. I'm not asking what AIS said, I am asking what BSA said. And YOU said, quite clearly, that BSA had directed people to AIS. And I, and others, are here to tell you that is 100% not true. BSA never, ever directed anyone to AIS. Ever. If they had, people start going to prison. And thus far you still have no
    4 points
  42. Unfortunately, I have first hand knowledge (emails and otherwise) that support my statement, not to mention roundtable powerpoints from our LC in Nov 2019 that detail just that. I take exception to you labeling this "misinformation". Our LC SE was pointing folks towards AIS after getting clarification from national, and I know this because I was a DC at the time and was following those directives. I am sorry that you may not have been privy to that level of information until now, but it doesn't negate the fact that this is precisely what BSA was telling LCs to do. However, it is abun
    4 points
  43. Just finished our join night and ended up with 19 new scouts! Not too shabby when you consider that our roster last year was 18 strong. Surprisingly, it was a lot of older cubs. Our Bear den doubled, but we'll likely combine our Tigers & Wolves. Weird times. Excited for some new life breathed in!
    4 points
  44. Nope...does not put a damper on it. A mentor of mine pointed out long ago...yes, there is often a price for telling the truth, but there is also a price for not saying anything when the truth needs to be spoken.
    4 points
  45. Even now, councils need to be careful. I would think their messaging should flow along the lines of ... Apology to claimants, statement along the lines that no amount of money could undo damage done. That the terms have not been finalized and there are still unknowns; however, based on the current plan: How much we are being asked to contribute. Did we agree to pay. How we plan to pay that contribution. What is the impact on scouting locally. How we are making sure we are doing everything possible to prevent the abuse from happening again. Again
    4 points
  46. Can we save the family scouting thread for something other than ch 11? Granted, we have to get to 100 pages before we find out what's next in this story, but still, arguing about family scouting just sounds like cheating
    4 points
  47. Strange. I haven't seen a whole lot of natural instinct for organization among girls. I challenge young teens to build crews, the first step being getting them and five buddies to show up at my door and tell me they want to get started. That first step is very, very, hard for them. Among Girl Scouts, on the other hand, they are cracker-jack organizers. It was a group of girl scouts who rebooted our crew and then handed it off to a next generation. If BSA wanted to draw a solid line in the sand, they should of kept "Boy Scouts" and added a stand-alone "Boy Scouts for Girls." They clea
    4 points
  48. some observations & wisdom from a DL & ADL for two boys from tiger to AOL. (disclaimer: we were in a large pack, 85-110 scouts in an upper middle class zip code in Wake Co. NC.) We operated as a "waist up" uniform pack. More happy if they showed up than if they were in full uniform. -Don't buy the long scout pants, not comfy & boys wear shorts most of the time anyway. -Pack provided rank necker at crossover. Tigers would buy theirs pack supplied after that. -We usually had scouts make a slide/woggle at some point or taught them to tie them. Slides always
    4 points
  49. True, it is. However, in a good number of states due to mandatory reporting statutes plus BSA's YPT rules, the scouter who finds out about the abuse does not have a choice about whether or not they report to law enforcement. They have to report. Part of the difficulty here is that we are missing a major part of this story. Someone in BSA or the LC got this information and relayed it to law enforcement (or did so through lawyers). We have I believe NO idea if law enforcement then contacted the victim. Moreover, and this is also another completely realistic possibility, is th
    4 points
  50. I am so sorry to those survivors whom, through this entire process, are continually being triggered, re-traumatized etc... as reports, information etc... are reported. Stay safe and strong! You WILL get through this.
    4 points
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