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  1. I want to apologize for me cussing in my comment last week.I let my anger take control of my response.Please accept my apology.I don't want Scouts to shutdown.Even though I was abused I've seen a lot of good in the Scouts.My scoutmaster God rest his soul was by far the greatest scoutmaster a kid could ask for.I learned a lot from him.I guess my anger flared up when someone said how we want to only talk about the bad well we do.Most victims have been carrying this heavy load for a very long time by ourselves. And speaking for only me, Im 50 years old and I'm finally strong enough to share my st
    9 points
  2. May not be a big deal to most people, but my kid was on bacon duty this weekend. He crossed over in March and wont hardly cook at home. We help staff a Cub Family Campout this weekend and the Boy Troop and Girl Troop were both there. I am usually helping the girls and let him go on his own with the boys. Mainly so he starts to learn to do without me always being there to help. In addition to bacon, he also scrambled eggs, and cooked two hamburgers.
    7 points
  3. I think this is the wrong way to look at the problem and is the source of a lot of angst here. Rather than ask for a specific failure rate that is acceptable, after which everyone can say there is no longer a problem, it would be better to use methods that continually drive down failure rates. Look at air travel. Back in the 70's there were enough crashes that all the parties involved (manufacturers, airlines, regulators) got together and decided that air travel was both important and dangerous. They started measuring death rates in deaths per billion passenger miles traveled. I think it start
    7 points
  4. I have mucho thoughts swirling, including whether the documentaries will help the cause of survivors or serve only to make someone (else) money off our backs. That question is really my greatest concern. I'll not go too deep into it now. Before I don't, I must say that survivors and their families are entitled to say whatever they want, provided it's true and accurate. What the filmmakers do with their words and presentations is on them. Woe unto...Will they be held to account for any grand misrepresentations or false implications regarding Scouting, I bet not. Salaciousness, if that's what th
    7 points
  5. There is no doubt that our history has led to where we all are today. The past created our present. So a lot of people today are behind the eight-ball from the outset. It will take generations to right the ship. But, we've now also had generations of a relatively level playing field. My parents, born in the mid 1940s, were born poor. My dad's family had to get water in a bucket from the neighbor to flush their toilets. My mother was slightly better off but they did not own their own home when she was growing up, had ice delivery long after refrigerators were mainstream, and had no h
    6 points
  6. I was extremely dismayed to discover that BSA had created a DEI group, and have considered pulling my son out of Scouting because of it. Especially when they started pushing the new Eagle-required merit badge. DEI at face value sounds great. Who could be against diversity, equity, and inclusion? The co-opting of these terms has been ingenious. I believe DEI is sinister. Diversity inevitably starts having metrics. Metrics that presuppose some kind of quotas that should be met. This invariably results in punitive measures taken against whoever is not in the favored class. It's t
    6 points
  7. I know there often is a back and forth about suicide. Some say it's the ultimate selfish act by the one who lost the battle. Others who know the anguish understand it CAN be a severe mercy. I DO NOT condone or encourage self harm of any kind and certainly not the most extreme. I share these thoughts as someone who has been there. I thought everyone would be better off, including me, in my mortal coil absence. It seemed merciful to all involved, which of course is distorted and doesn't account for the good or the potential for healing, forgiveness, restoration, redemption and love that "covers
    6 points
  8. This discussion is the cart before the horse. What is the purpose of scouting? What is the purpose of the activities? I learned as I gained experience to measure if each activities was providing a positive growth opportunity for the scout. Mostly character, but other growth as well. By measuring each activity, I was forcing myself to understand the goals of the program, as well as insure the activities were presented in a manor that would produce growth. If the adults don't know where they are going, how do they know if they are doing it wrong? HOWEVER, scouting is game with a purpose and
    6 points
  9. I don't like it. The change should be "completed the fifth grade" or 11 years old. I agree with eliminating the AOL "early admittance". 10 year olds are way to young. Provide them with a quality Webelos program and do not push them into a Troop where they will be basically a "Webelos patrol". BSA sucks at recruitment and keeps thinking changing requirements or ages, etc... will solve it. It usually does the opposite. Older scouts are ok with younger scouts as long as they are not too young. This will exascerbates the frustration of the older scouts. BSA has no experts wi
    6 points
  10. She has a lot of work to do because confirmation of portions are typically appealed more than rejections. If she has issues with confirmation and must reject portions that becomes the BSA's problem to clean up. If she confirms portions and say the insurers appeal then she needs to have her case law locked down. Given the complexity of this and the historic nature and scope it should take a long time. Something else to consider. Judges ARE aware of news cycles. A long Memorial Day weekend coming up? The Friday before makes for a nice opportunity for s ruling when the press and others are
    5 points
  11. You may recall a recent post by our resident honorary Chief Scout @InquisitiveScouter Yesterday, I found this commentary https://seandietrich.com/scouts-honor/ Read the rest at at source: https://seandietrich.com/scouts-honor/ Mr. Dietrich concludes his commentary: Personally, I will never forget standing in a Methodist church, wearing a khaki uniform, showing three-finger salute, reciting an oath before my flag and my friends: “On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times
    4 points
  12. My own experience is that scout growth is dramatically slower without older scouts modeling the skills the new scouts need to learn. Troop Guides are OK, but they have to teach most of the skills in more of a classroom setting, while new scouts in a mixed age patrol just have to watch the skills being used in normal activities. The scouts in new scouts patrols tend to get bored because they don't stay busy enough when the troop guide isn't around. There is no resource of experience other than the troop guide. Then usually means the adults have to fill in to make sure the new scouts have a cont
    4 points
  13. Wow, that's quite a leap from what was really stated. Girls are wired differently than boys and and difference makes growth more challenging for boys when they are mixed with girls in a patrol method environment. The question isn't whether boys and girls can mix in scouting activities, of course they can. The question is whether benefit of girls and boys scouting together is worth the less growth for the boys. Barry
    4 points
  14. I thought this might be interesting discussion material. Scoutmaster Fred Young recruited Jakayla Armstrong to their church’s troop in 2019. At the time, he had to register Armstrong as a Lone Scout, since she was the only girl in the troop. He had faith that Armstrong could handle scouting with 10 other boys, he said, but he was wary at first. “Some boys didn’t want girls in the Boy Scouts,” he said. “And you have to be prepared for that.” Young said a handful of girls have joined other troops in the area, but none are African American – and his troop is the only all-Black troo
    4 points
  15. Then BSA will go Chapter 7. They brought this up multiple times. They do not have the liquidity to continue in bankruptcy after this summer ... and a completely rejected plan would likely take 6 months to a year to get through the process (plan, voting, confirmation hearing, approval). If national goes CH7, then expect many local councils to be immediately sued and a large number to file for their own bankruptcies. LDS and some COs will also get sued. I'm not sure if the BSA can survive, but it will be ugly for much longer. Now, I think a more likely outcome is that the judge either
    4 points
  16. Go ahead and start another subject. I enjoy these discussions and can talk hours about it in person. The whole idea of Patrol Method is to put scouts in situations where they have to make difficult decisions from the interactions with patrol mates. I learned that the preparing meals is the most intense patrol activity that exposes the scouts true character. And usually forces them to learn better habits of interacting with other people. We didn't always go to a camp where the patrol prepared the meals, but we made sure the patrols were independent so they would have to rely on each oth
    4 points
  17. Late to this post. In my district, cub scouts are done by over half. Virtualized cub scouting did not work. Packs that continued in person activities as much as possible during the COVID fear campaign are the ones that are healthy today. Packs that did not, lost a bunch of cub scouts. Another factor driving scouts out of the program is the push towards more classroom type activities instead of more outdoor activities. Recruitment has been significantly down. It has to be all the advertisements looking for victims of sexual abuse, because of the BSA. My chartering organization will no lon
    4 points
  18. You make several interesting points: Traditionally, we know from observation that the majority of chartered organizations have acted more in the role of a benevolent landlord rather than treating their Scouting organization as a true ministry or part of their organization. A meeting place, equipment storage and perhaps a Scout Sunday program or chili supper fundraiser have been the extent of their involvement. This has been common practice for decades. You are correct that court interpretations of the charter agreements have shocked some chartered organizations into realizing the
    4 points
  19. This past weekend was a District Cub Family Campout... So, the boy Troop and girl Troop helped staff. Meaning, we helped run the various activities during the day. Otherwise, it was a pretty typical weekend campout. I flew a kite on Saturday,.
    4 points
  20. Welcome to the forum, @DocDeVivo . Any uniform is acceptable, no matter how old.
    4 points
  21. I've always thought before that having a wider age range in scouts helped promote the magic of older scouts working with young. To me that magic was what scouting was about. And yet I can see how splitting that age group could help the scouts see the transition from younger scout to older. I had a lot of conversations with scouts along the lines of you're no longer the young scouts, it's time to start helping out. Something about the UK group system could also help that as well. The BSA also struggles with the transition between age ranges because they're separate units. If the same lead
    4 points
  22. I think it’s a cultural thing. I worked a lot with the 14 to 22 year olds and gained so much respect from them, as well as pleasure with the experience. They are the noble product of patrol method and have so much to give back. But, our culture expects them to go out into the world and get educated and find their place in the community. Like some here, many at National and others outside looking in see scouting as nothing more than an after school babysitting program. Move on from youthful play time and get busy with serious adult life. I agree the BSA doesn’t give the older scouts any vision
    4 points
  23. I think I might hijack this thread again. The topic of trailers is a type of hot button issue for me. It's not the trailer so much as the mindset it creates. I'm fine with a trailer to make it easier for more scouts to get in fewer cars. What I dislike is the attitude of "we have a trailer, just bring all the gear we could possibly need." I'd talk about Thrifty and it just never resonated with anyone. What people want vs what they need. When I did a lot of backpacking I got really good at knowing the difference. I forced the troop to dump the huge patrol boxes that did take four adults to
    4 points
  24. I would contend that kids are less safe in either situation, without the constant vigilance of adults who are watching out for them. Policies do not equal vigilance...that is part of the thinking that got us here in the first place. As a kid who was groomed and abused, I know what the predator looks and acts like. He is the nicest person in the world. He cares for your kids. He is friendly. He goes out of his way to help them and you. He is biding his time and waiting for the opportunity. What I'd really like to know is, how long does he wait before he gives up and moves on to
    4 points
  25. Best to go to the source.... *(( The true author of this article is unknown. It is here copied from the COME HOSTELING newsletter, Sept. 1980, of the Potomac Area Council of the American Youth Hostels, who received it from Dick Schwanke, Senior PAC Staff Trainer, who read it in the APPALACHIAN HIKER by Ed Garvey, who got it from the Potomac Appalachian Trail Conference Bulletin, which quoted it from THE RAMBLER of the Wasatch Mountain Club of Salt Lake City, which reportedly cribbed it from the I.A.C. News of Idaho Falls, which reported it from the 1966 PEAKS & TRAILS. I offer it h
    3 points
  26. Been there done that. In fact, we tried almost 10 different approaches to getting first year scouts up to speed, and comfortable enough to want to stay. The BSA looses more scouts in their first year of a troop than any other age in the BSA. Our Troop certainly saw that problem. The quick reason for the drop out rate is that sudden culture change from being hand held through life by adults to instant independence of relying on the boy leader not much older than the new scout and themselves for surviving in the woods. It's terrifying for many new scouts. Now, you would think that the new s
    3 points
  27. Great question. Quick and easy answer is : IT. IS. NOT. SCOUTING! (bold and cap for major emphasis and not shouting) Detailed Answer. I do not know when exactly the shift occurred, But when I took Cub Scout Basic Leader Training way back in the day, and when I taught Webelos Den Leader Specific Training, there was an emphasis on transitioning from Cub Scouts to then Boy Scouts. The syllabi discussed how you needed to give them more and more responsibility, start letting them do things for themselves, and getting away from parents signing off on advancement. That is when the "whi
    3 points
  28. BSA Seeking $16+ Million from GSUSA regarding dismissed Trademark Suit Below is introductory text of a BSA Motion to recover $16+ Million of attorneys fees and costs incurred by the BSA during the recently-dismissed trademark suit filed by the GSUSA against the BSA. The link to the full motion document, which provides granular information of what organizational moves GSUA was making proximate to the Scouts BSA announcement, is pasted below. It is worth the read. “Preliminary Statement By any measure, this trademark case is “exceptional” under the fee award provision of the Lan
    3 points
  29. I have no idea what OAN is nor do I see what "Antifa" has to do with this. I agree, the current incarnation of the new merit badge is fairly tame. But there is a saying: "Once you let the nose of the camel in your tent before you know it you have the whole camel in your tent." All of this woke stuff was pretty tame years ago and look where we are now.
    3 points
  30. Lots of assumptions on how the BSA will end up doing it. I have been in other orgs who didn’t do it how you describe.
    3 points
  31. The issue both he and I highlighted was the fact that BSA at all levels "knew or should of known" the imminent threat of CSA throughout the organization. The documented knowledge of that irrefutable evidence created/creates a gimme case of negligence under the law. The "knew or should of known" element was NOT ONLY regarding disconnected, diffuse incidents in many locations over 10 decades, but it illustrated in great detail, among other things: 1. Repeat patterns of grooming; 2. Behaviors and indicia of both abusers and high risk Scouts; 3. High vulnerability and easy access wi
    3 points
  32. Well written. I fully agree. It's just not possible. Hindsight and changes in judgement, values and expectations causes past records to be more damaging than valuable. Also, isn't that the whole thing that opened BSA's legal nightmare? BSA kept incident records from 50+ years ago. ... It's legal negligence that BSA did not have these documents subject to a data retention policy. Yes, handle the incidents. Follow the law that exists at that time. Make the best decisions and take the right actions. Then, when done, the records should have been subject to a standard data re
    3 points
  33. Just ask. I fixed the not now typo
    3 points
  34. Norman Y. Mineta, a son of Japanese immigrants who was held in an internment camp during World War II and later became one of the country’s highest-profile Asian American political leaders, as San Jose mayor, a 10-term congressman, and as Transportation Secretary who ordered commercial flights grounded after the 9/11 terror attacks , died May 3 at his home in Edgewater, Md. He was 90. Sources: https://www.npr.org/2022/05/03/1096440480/norman-mineta-first-asian-american-cabinet-secretary-dies-at-age-90 https://www.truckinginfo.com/10169918/norm-mineta-a-uniquely-american-story
    3 points
  35. Rather than give any money to the council I'd suggest going to one of the camps, ask them what they need that's worth about $250 and go buy it for them. They will be thankful. Do not give them the money and do not give it to the council saying it's for the camp as the camp will never see it. This is my experience. In the meantime, tell the guy that told you the 40% fable that the deal is off the table because they lied to you. Nobody pays 40%, not even for popcorn - that has a built in 33% that goes to the council. <end of rant>
    3 points
  36. When we stopped doing popcorn as unit fundraisers simply because sales were declining, we pursued other fundraisers and then still gave council/FOS a modest lump sum from each unit. It was generally around $250 per. We heard similar noises because our new fundraising options were more successful, but it was about the same as what they had been getting with popcorn and we had asked them come up with some other fundraiser options, which they had refused to do. A thank you would have been much nicer. This is an inherent problem in the BSA structure which manifests itself when it comes to f
    3 points
  37. Welcome @MattySchnides! Zero percent!!!!!!!! And the DE response is laughable.🤣 Units do not exist to provide a cash cow for the council. Give them zero and ignore any other correspondence on the matter.
    3 points
  38. Hello all! I'm Andrew from Canton, NC. I used to be fairly active on the "official" Scoutbook discussion forums page, until they banned all content that wasn't related to "Scoutbook, Internet Advancement and all other BSA IT software and resources". I'm happy to find this website so I can learn from others and share my own experiences. You'll most likely find me in the Cub Scout forums as I am a AOL DL/CC for our Pack.
    3 points
  39. There's certainly a middle path between going by the book and adapting. Not all change is good, but not all change is bad. The program is local and flexible for a reason. For example, I personally think the taut-line hitch should be replaced with a more modern and effective knot. But learning to tie an adjustable knot that holds under tension is a big part of camping/scout or bushcraft. Similarly, functioning as a patrol is a big part of scouting. What exactly that means can vary, but keeping up with communal gear matters.
    3 points
  40. As @scoutldrstated, you do not "join" OA, you are elected by the members of your troop. In order for someone to be elected, the scouts in the troop should know that person well. Were I still a youth member I would be leery of voting for someone who dual registered for no other reason than to use our troop to gain election to OA. If becoming an Arrowman means that much to you, I would either try to convince your SM that being elected to OA is not going to cause you to neglect your troop, and therefore allow an election to be held. If that cannot be accomplished you have to look at the p
    3 points
  41. All of the camps in Rhode Island have been leased for as far back as I can remember. They're owned by RIBS (Rhode Island Boy Scouts), one of the early organizations that merged with the BSA but continue to exist as the entity that owns those camps. Narragansett Council doesn't own any of them (there is a lot of cross-fertilization between the boards of RIBS and the council, but they are legally distinct entities.) So, there's a lot of precedent there, and yes, NCAP applies.
    3 points
  42. ...UK Scouting Association "New figures released on Thursday show that youth membership – those aged between four and 18 – has grown from 362,668 to 421,852 between January 2021 and January 2022." Rest of story is behind paywall at https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scouts-bear-grylls-cub-scouts-volunteering-covid-b2067142.html Compare Scouting Association transparency and feedback receptiveness with the BSA. There is even a Scout Experience survey form for@Eagle94-A1to review. https://www.scouts.org.uk/about-us/our-impacts-and-reports/
    3 points
  43. I was one of those 18- 30 year olds. I served in a variety positions, including professional, in that age range: ASM, OA lodge officer, OA chapter advisor, AIA advisor, UC, and council training staff. Because of my age, I got along with the youth very well, and still keep in contact with a bunch of them years later. As for being asked, I think it varies. Some other Scouters had no issues asking me to help out. Others ignored me, told me I had not idea what I was doing or talking about, etc. It was frustrating at times.
    3 points
  44. From whence cometh these seemingly off-handed assertions and phantom statistic? Is your last quip stating children are at an equivlanet risk of CSA while wandering around in the mall with a friend as they are within an organization lead by adults? I may be misreading, but here are some statistics. Having a brain misfire. I'm trying to say avoiding creating potentially dangerous adult acquaintances means a reduction of CSA risk. Is that the ideal to separate oneself? Probably not, but just trying to figure out what you're saying and on what basis. https://www.rainn.org
    3 points
  45. Ahhhh....great idea....let's keep "giving context" to the abuse so it will make it seem much less devastating than it was to those of us abused. Just so we're all clear, please remind us what percentage is the over/under line for when the abuse rate doesn't seem so bad. Sarcasm mode off now. The abuse, whether you believe the number of claimants or not, is more than a total number. It was a number over time and the BSA knew it had a problem. For those of us abused while files were kept, and refused payoffs to drop our suits and go away, "context" is irrelevant. At some point a Trust may
    3 points
  46. We are starting to look for small trailers. 1 axel, 8 or 10 feet. Really just to free up seatbelts. The goal is to have it towable by a midsized SUV.
    3 points
  47. No trailer works for patrol outings... two adults, 5 to 8 Scouts...maybe one extra car (a parent) for transpo... For Troop outings...nope. We have 57 Scouts now (in 7 Patrols) Our average on outings is about 30-35 Scouts. The average family's vehicle can hold about five passengers, so we need 6 or 7 vehicles just to get the bodies there. The average family car cannot hold passengers and gear for six people (including the driver, when they are camping.) Most families do not own trucks or SUVs in our area... Our Troop owns two gear trailers: one large for Troop outings (an
    3 points
  48. Always entertaining discussion on towing the trailer. Have run across units held hostage by the Trailer Haulers that are able to dictate when and where the troop camps due to their "contribution" Glad our troop trailer is smaller, our gear is stored in a shed, and can be hauled by any SUV / truck. No extra requirements for hauling.
    3 points
  49. I keep seeing that claim that abuse is lower in scouting but most of the studies cited to support that aren't relevant. For one thing, girls are generally abused 4 to 5 times more frequently than boys, so any study done in the general population would logically have higher rates. There are other issues as noted as well. Another point about relative safety is the fact that BSA often seems to think it is doing a better job than it is. As late as 2018 BSA was still claiming it never allowed predators to return to scouting and have access to children. Mike Surbaugh, the then head of BSA, had
    3 points
  50. Mostly, the adult leader application gives unit leader "approval" powers to the charter org (or representative) and to the SE (or representative) to approve leader positions. Those two signatures defines who has authority. Both signatures because any adult leader becomes a representative of both BSA and the charter org. At the same time, BSA documents the job to appoint unit leaders with the committee chair. https://troopleader.scouting.org/committee-chairman/#:~:text=The troop committee chair appoints,are delegated%2C coordinated and completed. IMHO, the key is it's the C
    3 points
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