fred8033

Slight correction. Alternative only applies if troop has pre-established expectations and the scout does not meet those. If the troop does not have pre-established (i.e. written), the third test is passed. You only use the alternative if the scout fails to meet documented written pre-existing unit expectations. "Alternative to the third test if expectations are not met: If a young man has fallen below his unit’s activity oriented expectations, then.... "

Buddists not believing in God? It is a simplistic misguided question. Using it to say BSA is inconsistent is weak, at best. The Buddist answer to the question of God depends on the branch of Buddism. More importantly, Buddism is less about answering questions about God and more about a path to enlightenment and Nirvana. But clearly, Buddism is about spirituality, faith, transcending our physical existence, etc. I remember reading "Religions of Man" by Houston Smith 30 years ago, Buddism is a core religion. If anything, celebrate that BSA has long been a uniting force bringing many many religions together under one umbrella. But I am generally with you... BSA should be open. Let the charter orgs choose leaders that reflect their beliefs. I'd rather have everyone as members and let them choose units under charter orgs that reflect their personal beliefs. We can leave the Oath and Law as it is. Even our schools pledge "one nation under God" and our money says "In God We Trust". Let each charter org emphasize as it wants. BSA can keep the premise and the charter orgs can teach it according to their beliefs. The issue is that atheism is more often anti-theism and evangelized int he face of those trying to raise their children in their families faith.

I'm generally a fan of SOAR because of the strong and stable user interface. Rich email capabilities. Good calendaring. .... I contacted the owner recently and he indicated a lot of good features coming. I'm not involved with the company. Just interested in it's success as I've got about 15 local units to adopt it for their packs & troops. Good package. I tried TroopWebHost recently, and had trouble with buttons that were invisible on some browsers and menus that did not immediately expand. The web interface is flaky.

Ya know ... I'm pretty happy with our solution. ---- SOAROL.COM - for web site, email, calendar, sign-up, auto-payment, automatic newsletter, etc ---- TroopMaster (PC version with data backup on internet) for general records and tracking "IN WORK" (i.e. to be awarded) advancements - We've really gotten away from recording that much in Troopmaster anymore. - We just don't see the purpose. ---- Boy Scout Handbook for real advancement tracking with the scout. ---- BSA ScoutNET for official tracking

Agree with the not-so-fine line between conduct disorder and autism spectrum. BUT ... if a parent won't come hiking and camping ... that's not the solution either. There is a fine line here. Scouts need to work with scouts. Parents and adults need to be kept at arms length. Our troop has been very flexible and parents have helped greatly when the kids are autistic or other "ability" issues. But it's very different to need the parent to attend because you anticipate bad behavior and the scout being asked to leave camp. IMHO, you've got a bad situation. Scouting is about independence and trust. If you know he won't be able to contain himself fairly regularly (once a camp out or even every other camp out), then you don't TRUST him and scouting is probably not the right answer for him. IMHO, it's the job of the CC to deal with these situations quickly and delicately. Most importantly, deal with them. If that means removing the scout, so be it.

Well said.

Yea. So true.

About basementdweller's situation ... a few comments Talk with the parents BEFORE the scout is involved in a formal meetings or discipline. ---- Zero surprises. ---- Early and up front communications You need to remove the scout from the troop ---- if the scout won't own the issues ---- if the parents won't agree on a solution ---- if the troop leaders don't believe the situation is fixable Make sure the troop leaders are being honest with themselves. ---- Red flag phrases. --------- "If any kid needs scouting, ..." --------- "It's our duty to ...." --------- "Isn't this why scouting was created ..." ---- Troop leaders are responsible for the health of the WHOLE troop. I'd NEVER put a scout in front of an adult disciplinary board or even a youth version. ---- Don't hold a trial or a punishment committee. ---- Deal with the scout one-on-one ---- Have at least two or three adults present, but one is the key player. Follow the techniques a manager uses for a problem employee meeting. ---- Think of it as coaching ---- Pre-plan. Be specific. Use examples. ---- Listen to the scout ---- Make sure the scout owns the issues and agrees to fixing things. IMHO ... scouting is not about punishments. Having to debate punishments means something is wrong. Might be the troop. Might be the specific youth. But something needs to change.

I agree with Krampus ... to a degree. The term "disability" is too loosely used. I've had excellent experience with scouts that have some level of asbergers, autism or a disability. They are excellent scouts. I've also had scouts that come from broken homes or with parents in jail. We can work with them too. To be honest, I'm confounded when people talk of the category of asbergers as some type of really bad diagnosis. From what I see, they function fine in families and in society. The category I have had little success integrating into the troop is "EBD"... i.e. significant / severe emotional behavioral disorders. Oppositional. Defiant. Strong anti-social behavior. Meanness. "I believe" (not a clinician) those fall into the term severe or significant "emotional behavior disorders" ... "EBD". I'm at the point that when I see it demonstrated, we may or may not give a warning and/or a 2nd chance. The result is separation from the troop. If the scout is willing to work with us, great! We accept them. But if they want to bring meanness, oppositional, defiant or strong anti-social behaviors into the troop, they need to move on ... and very quickly move on.

Ya know ... I'm not an expert but there is a way to make scout accounts work. You need to be careful though. BUT FIRST DISCLAIMER. ***** TALK TO A TAX ATTORNEY ***** SECOND DISCLAIMER . ***** TALK TO A TAX ATTORNEY ***** - If you are not chartered by a non-profit, it is not an issue. BUT YOU PROBABLY HAVE A BIGGER TAX ISSUE FOR THE SALES So if you are a non-profit .... The IRS issue I see is the conferring private benefit. - If you hold a "troop" fundraiser (jointly selling popcorn, car washes, etc), it is troop/non-profit money. You can't benefit individuals by crediting them with XX amount of the sales. That is clearly against the rules. Essentially, you can't give non-profit money to an individual because they participated in fundraising. Non-profit funds must benefit the community targetted by the non-profit. You can't benefit specific individuals. - If scouts sell wreaths / popcorn and say "Would you like to purchase **** to support Troop ###?" or there is a big banner at the sale saying "Troop ### popcorn sales", then you are using the status of the non-profit to trigger sales. That is again a no no. The money earned by the sales must go to everyone the non-profit serves and can't be targetted back to the individuals that worked the fundraiser. .... BUT .... ******** ******** I'd like to confirm with a tax attorney that ... if a scout individually walks around saying "would you purchase popcorn? I'm raising money to pay for me to go to camp and to participate in my scouting activities." or similar, then the money is not being given to the non-profit. It's owned by the youth. It's his money ... and his tax issue if he wants to submit a tax statement ... pay sales tax ... submit a income tax return ... etc. Very similar to if the scout said to his neighbor, can I wash your car or mow your yard? I'm earning money to go to camp. Essentially, he's not using the non-profit status to benefit himself. It is clearly setup to benefit the specific individual. Also, it needs to be clear, the "sale" or "service" is not tax deductible. ******** ******** Scout accounts can work. You just need to be darn careful.

A nearby troop has a large fishing tackle box of patches kept in their scout closet. They restock after advancements. They immediately give the patch (rank or MB) and at the COH give the card. I like this appoach. Wish we were organized to do it too. The big challenge I always saw was how to initially create the supply. I was thinking if I did it, I'd get one of those small portable plastic tool boxes. Keep everything in it. Forms, advancements, MB cards, etc. Any of the "paperwork" type of items.

Units give out unofficial awards all the time. Unit leaders just need to get creative and do something meaningful that the youth / "scout" can look back and take pride in as he should because he's achived something special. Yes, it's mucked up by the unit leaders and the mother. But he has still achived something special.

Yeah, I must disent though. While Krampus may have successfully wiped himself for 30+ years, it is cold hearted bad advice that adds more damage to an already bad situation. Of course the unit on it's own can't give the "scout" official advancement. The council/BSA needs to fix that. But that's only part of the problem. The problem is that the "scout" is many years down a scouting path and has effectively completed it. AND the problem is only partially the mom's fault. Even more at fault are the unit leaders who are supposed to know the program, know the rules and know what will happen when you have a youth participate for years without registering. It might be a fun fantasy to be the hard a##, but that is almost always bad advice. AND I fear someone would actually take that advice. Would you really tell the scout: "Your mom was an idiot .... ????" If you did that, the only thing you end up creating is a kid with a grudge against mom and against scouting. Not only that, but you take a kid who has achieved and slap him in the face and only focus on the negative. *** AND *** you might as well continue at that point and say that all the previous unit leaders were morons too as they were in the same boat and they were the captains of the ship and running the tiller. ... But it doesn't help anyone and as such it's not real practical advice. The original poster is now representing the unit that led the scout youth astray and has responsibility to participate in fixing the situation. I'll leave it to the SE, council, BSA to figure out if they want to go so far as to formally credit and recognize the scout. There is not enough info to judge that here and the poster doesn't have authority to decide that. The key is that we are supposed to be teaching leadership, character, citizenship, etc. To have led someone and treated them as a scout and taken them thru the advancement program FOR MANY YEARS and then only at the end draw a hard line is completely wrong. We are not the guy yelling: No Soup For You. Find a way to recognize the scout that is on par with what he achieved and don't dimminish his achievement because of adult screw ups. It is sad that it will probably be unofficial due to his mom and his unit leaders. That is already unfair enough. Don't damage the youth / scout any more.

Work with the parents to understand what is going on. If they don't want to work with you, fine. That ends the situation. Two keys though are that #1 scouting is a group activity and that #2 scouting is a volunteer activity (both youth and adults). You can only go so far "forcing" youth to include someone who doesn't want to function as a part of their group. It's one thing if they exclude someone who wants to be involved. It's another if the kid won't socialize with them. QUESTION - Have you lost other scouts because of him? Or, have others said they'd rather not go on events if they have to camp with him? Just curious. It happens. If you really really think you can help this youth, great! BUT, scouting is not for everyone and I'd really warn against naively taking the "If any kid needs scouting, it's this kid" attitude. It's true, but the damage to your troop and your troop's reputation can be pretty bad.

Yeah .... I tend to agree it's not the best idea, but it's in line with what has happened so far and it works to smoothly close the door. It's unofficial and everyone knows it. Perhaps instead of calling it "Eagle Scout", call it the "Spirit of the Eagle" award. Doesn't really matter what it is called as it's unofficial and such. The end all is that there is nothing that can be done to fix the situation. What can be done is to find a way to recognize the youth and make him proud and glad for the time he has been in scouts. It sounds like he has learned and benefitted from scouts. Hopefully, he will do the same for his own kids ... and also register them.