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T2Eagle last won the day on August 22

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About T2Eagle

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  1. In virtually any actual lawsuit about abuse BSA, from today, or 10 years ago, or 30 years ago, the CO, the local council, and the individual offender are all going to be sued. Assuming the suit has merit, at the end of the trial a judgment is first rendered about each defendant: was that defendant responsible for the harm that occurred yes or no. So if, as a matter of law BSA's programs were enough that they were not responsible for the harm than they're in the clear, same for actions or lack of actions by council, same for CO, same for individual defendant. After its determined who is responsible for the harm than you need to determine who is going to pay the damages. This varies by state, some states say everyone is responsible for everything, and so everybody has to pay what they can until the victim is made whole, in some states blame is apportioned by level of responsibility, and so if a particular defendant is only 5% responsible than they only pay 5% even if that leaves the victim uncompensated. Even under these old cases, even if the CO can't be made a defendant, the CO's actions are going to be part of the decision, either in deciding blame, or if there is apportioned liability, in deciding how much of the damage BSA is responsible for. The working assumption behind the bankruptcy and the desire to set up a universal victims' fund is that however meritorious BSA's YPT programs were, either they were according to the law insufficient, or they were not carried out well enough in an individual case to prevent that individual harm, and that the sum total of all those legitimate cases was and is greater than the liquid assets BSA would have available to pay them and still continue normal operations.
  2. I disagree that this is happening because of litigation risk. This is happening because, by their own admission, they can't or won't take the steps necessary to prevent the rape and molestation of children by members of their organization. And if they can't do that, than no they should not have a youth program. If you can't afford to fix the brakes on your car than you shouldn't drive it, not because you're going to get sued for running someone over but because you shouldn't be willing to risk running someone over. As for the analogy to BSA, BSA isn't in bankruptcy despite all its training and background checks, it's in bankruptcy because the law changed in some but not all states and a window for suits from past behaviors has opened. To the extent that NMRA may have had past members who abused anyone than they're already at risk in those states. If all we were dealing with was liability from the past six or ten years (the most common statutes of limitation) than we wouldn't be in trouble at all.
  3. From the same article “If a church five years from now gets sued by a former Boy Scout who was molested or claims to have been molested in that church’s troop, normally the church would turn to the Boy Scouts and say, ‘You guys said you would hold us harmless and insure us, so do that,'” Jordan said. “And the Boy Scouts will say, ‘Sorry, we went through a bankruptcy reorganization and we no longer have any responsibility to do that.'” Churches can maintain their indemnification and gain access to the trust by filing a “placeholder” claim with the court by the Nov. 16 deadline, said Jordan, whose firm Guenther, Jordan & Price is outside general counsel to the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee and the SBC."
  4. it's doubtful it will really be in anyone's interest to object to a settlement. The alternative to a global settlement is that it becomes every man for himself. That means everything comes out of bankruptcy court and each plaintiff alleging abuse will have to file an individual lawsuit against BSA, and if applicable against a local council. Among other things that would mean BSA could spend down its all its own remaining assets fighting each claim individually. For the plaintiffs that means having to prove each individual claim in court and absorb all the attendant attorney and other costs.
  5. I am COR of a Pack and Troop sponsored by a Catholic parish. We have several registered leaders who are not Catholic. No one expects them to profess Catholic faith or deny their own. It's possible your CO has a different expectation but that would be pretty unusual. As to the training and document you're being asked to undertake, that is very very common in catholic units. I'm surprised this is just coming up now, a version of YPT for adults working with kids in Catholic parishes has been as close to a mandate as the structure of the Church allows for almost twenty years now (you may have heard we have our own history of bad actors and actions that needs to be overcome). What you're being asked to do is what every CYO coach, field trip volunteer, scout leader, etc. is asked to do. The training is pretty similar to BSA's. Take the training, sign the form if it doesn't conflict with your conscience, you won't see any change in your relationship with the unit or CO, and you probably won't hear any more about it until it's time to renew in a few years.
  6. 2000 scouts on the books is going to make operating two camps, a HA base, and a Cub camp really challenging. So Grand Teton went from 26,000 to 2,000, does anyone know the numbers for similar councils out west?
  7. The unit, in your case the pack, has to approve your son's application. The Cubmaster or a designee can approve the application. If your pack is using online applications this is a matter of a few clicks, if you're using paper applications then it's signature from Cubmaster, then someone has to drive it to the local council office where an employee, the registrar, has to enter it into the computer. all those steps could add up to some time. Your adult application needs an additional couple steps, you have to also complete BSA's Youth Protection Training (YPT) before any thing can be processed, and your application has to be signed by the Chartering organization Rep (COR) who is often someone not nearly as involved in the unit and so that may add to the time. As to joining the new Lodge. Look at a calendar, use your best recollection of the date of your Ordeal and submit that to the new lodge. My Ordeal was in like 1973 --- no records exist, my new Lodge was happy with the date I picked. There are no records to transfer, it's just a date they have to enter in a database.
  8. I have a number of thoughts on this, and like the rule they're not going to be completely crystallized. First, in all of this discussion the thing to keep in mind is that the enforcement mechanism for any of this, or said differently, the benefit conferred for compliance with any of this, is continued membership in BSA and to a lesser extent coverage by their insurers for things that may go wrong. BSA is not the only organization that does this. My religion has provisions for excommunication for certain acts, even if those acts occur outside of church or church functions. Lots of employers either explicitly or implicitly have rules that govern your behavior outside the workplace, and the enforcement mechanism is the same, dismissal from membership, ie fired. So this is a question of degree not kind. If you actually go read the details of the instances of abuse that have occurred over the years, both in scouting and in the Catholic Church, what you'll see is that much, maybe even most of the abuse occurs outside actual sanctioned events. Contact and trust is built through scouting, and then the worst acts occur when the victim is with the predator away from organized events. This is exactly the situation this rule is trying to prevent, so the rule mostly makes sense. To the original question, where's the line for family members?, there's no way BSA could define that. You would have to spend pages and pages defining who is and isn't a family member --- adult step siblings? the second cousin's wife? dad's girlfriend who has lived with Johnny scout for a decade but hasn't married his father? grandmom's third husband? --- and even then you'd have situations unaddressed. It makes more sense to leave that up to you: where do you want the risk line to be drawn for your child, where do you want the risk line to be drawn for your BSA membership. Then there's the question of liability and insurance. Set aside abuse and think about that sleepover, maybe it's your kid and his or her patrol mates, and something bad happens, maybe a terrible injury to a kid, maybe they burn down your garage and part of your house. The scout's lawyer in the case of injury or your lawyer in the case of property damage, is going to rightfully look for parties who can share the loss. A patrol sleepover is going to look like, and maybe treated like, a scouting event. If BSA can say hey, we have a rule that this is prohibited behavior, they have a better chance of not being on the hook. This is probably a minor consideration on their part, the amount of money they might save on insurance for having this rule is pennies at best, but it is prudence on their part, and therefore Thrifty. So exercise common sense and prudence, these rules and their enforcement inescapably have a component where judgment and not blind adherence has to be used by both sides, and if BSA is going to foolishly interpret its own rules such that they would dismiss you from membership for sleeping in the same tent as your kid, then you haven't lost much when you lose that membership.
  9. I'm not sure how long you've been at this game known as scouts, but hard earned experience is that if you do this: "One form (call it "Scout copy") is kept at the scouts house, by the scout, and one form is kept at the "Form Keepers" location ("master copy"). " you will spend a lot of time every Friday before pulling out of the parking lot ensuring that each scout has a form, and then you'll spend some more time as one or two scramble because they forgot it. If you're just going to have the scouts responsible for their form what is the point of having a master file that never gets used? In our troop we keep a master file of all forms in a sturdy, water resistant, zippered binder. That binder stays at our Chartered Organization with all our other equipment, and it goes on every outing. One committee person is responsible for maintaining it and ensuring everybody's forms are up to date. We do not try to put together a folder that has just the forms for those attending an event, we just take the "medical binder" with us everywhere. On the rare occasion that we have to turn a physical copy in at check-in, which for us happens only at summer camp and one other camporee type event, we make a copy of those attending ahead of time, turn it in, and then when we get them back either shred them or give them to the parent. We urge everybody to make and keep a copy of their form before they turn it in, just in case something happens. In practice that means the scout or parent brings it to the meeting and we make a copy for them. Generally the big push for this is the run up to summer camp and so everyone is pretty much on the same renewal cycle. The forms are important, but what is important about them is that they alert the leaders to any underlying conditions a scout might have. I have been at this game a while now, and in many trips to the ER and one serious air medi-evac, no medical professional has ever asked to see a health form. They do ask if we know of any conditions they should know about, but with rare exception folks don't wander this world with their own medical form in their back pocket, and every emergency protocol just assumes that dearth of information. I have mixed feelings about the prohibition on digitizing forms. It would make things easier, but it is also true that whenever you make a digital copy of something that copy lasts forever on every computer, server, phone, etc. that ever accesses it. There is actually no such thing as deleting. Lastly, what you refer to as a loop hole isn't one. If the unit leaders are deciding to have someone digitize the forms then the unit leaders are digitizing the forms, it doesn't matter who actually is running the scanner.
  10. She built a bench. Like oh so many Eagle scouts before her. I would love to know how many benches have been built as Eagle scout projects over the years. I see them in virtually every park I've been to over the years, and have had my share of my troop's scouts build them. The number has to be in the tens of thousands. ETA ... and the sore feet and tired legs of a nation,including yours truly, are grateful.
  11. The BSA uses a commercial company to run background checks. What they're going to pick up is things that are a public record, basically a credit report and a list of criminal convictions if any. There is almost zero chance that what you're describing exists in any data base that anyone would be able to access. Put in your application, don't worry, and hope that this becomes a weird/funny story you tell in the coming years.
  12. Unless they specify ahead of time, and it would probably have to be some sort of targeted audience course to do so, no one is expected to have backpacking level equipment for WB. There are no fitness requirements for the course, and a lot of participants are going to be from the Cub level where they haven't yet invested in light weight gear. Assuming that your tent isn't so big that it takes more than one person to move it anywhere you should be fine.
  13. I like the idea that the requirements are deferred. Our unit was running into trouble with this and were going to have a good group of scouts unable to advance at the pace they wanted. Our "solution" is that we just did finally find someone who has a pond we can use, so we're scheduling a one time only swimming requirements afternoon. I hate it, we never schedule advancement only or even advancement centric activities. We schedule fun scouting activities and out of them arise opportunities to work on requirements if that's what the scout wants to do. I'd rather the requirement be deferred until a real opportunity arises and let the scout continue to move forward.
  14. This dead horse isn't really worth beating, but, nothing here is out of the proper chain of command. In scouts the ASMs report to the SM. The SM reports to the committee. The Committee , led by its chair, reports to the COR. Part of the committee's responsibility is selecting the ASMs. So if they're responsible for recruiting and selecting ASMs they would logically be involved in knowing why someone is no longer an ASM.
  15. I've been on a couple of non profit boards, gifts like this are trickier than they appear at first glance. It seems great on its face, but dig a little deeper and it's more work for what might be only a marginal gain, at best, for fulfilling your mission. A launch point and then a separate parcel --- two new pieces of property, not connected to each other and not connected to any other scouting properties. Someone has to maintain them, someone has to make sure they're always in compliance with all the various regulations that affect wetlands and waterfront, someone has to empty the port o pots necessary for each parcel. All that while not sure how many of your clients/members will actually use the facilities, and having no real indication that there was demand or need for these properties among your clients/members. So if you accept the gift you instantly are accepting the costs that go with it, and so you have to plan for and process all that before accepting. All of that is not to say that the gift shouldn't be made or accepted, just that it's often more complicated than at first blush it might seem. Scouts are not the only organization that can make use of recreational land and opportunity, and especially today may not be the best recipient for this. There are other conservation groups that have good experience managing nature lands, your friend would probably do well to explore some of those also.
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