InquisitiveScouter

Thanks for your volunteer service. At some point, the uphill battle becomes too steep to continue. If you have no other options, discreetly find a good home you can recommend to your Scouts, and get them transitioned there ASAP. Recommend you not wait until the Troop does not recharter, then do the transfers... that could cause a break in continuity that may cause some to drop all together. Do you already have a solid unit they could go to?

SMH

In the military we would say, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." (attributed to Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke, Prussian) The Scouting version of that is, "No plan survives contact with reality." And Churchill said, ".... the best generals are those who arrive at the results of planning without being tied to plans." The Scouting version would be, "The best Patrol Leaders are those who accomplish the goal without being tied to the plan." Many, many more quotes along these lines show the wisdom of planning, and then not being adamant that you stick to the plan you have made, come hell or high water...

No, it isn't. Did you read my original post? I train to standard, and keep a record of their training. I would posit your statement should be presented the other way around, "... do not fall for certification instead of training..." Esse quam videre.

I am a bit confused by your response. So, do you have Scouts who are working on First Aid Merit Badge pursue a "certification", to meet their requirement which says, 7. Heart Attack. Do the following: (a) Explain what a heart attack is. (b) Describe the symptoms and signs of a heart attack and first aid for this condition. (c) Describe the conditions that must exist before performing CPR on a person. (d) Demonstrate proper CPR technique using a training device approved by your counselor. (e) Explain the use of an automated external defibrillator (AED). (f) Demonstrate or simulate the proper use of an AED, using an AED training device if available. (g) Identify the typical location(s) of one or more AED(s) at public facilities in your community, such as, your school, place of worship, unit meeting place, sports facilities, and/or camp or by using a smart phone app. Discuss the reasons for choosing locations like these. That is training, not certification. So are they "falling" for something? If so, would you please elaborate on what they are falling for?

BTW, I have had conversations with Camp Directors on this wrt NCAP. And wherever the standard is vague or conflicting, they have interpreted it in their favor (training versus certification). I know a Camp Director who also asked for clarification from National on this issue... and got no response. So he used "training" versus "certification" to meet NCAP requirements.

Agree!

Wanted the forum's thoughts on this topic. Here's the background... I am a CPR/AED (and First Aid and Wilderness First Aid) Instructor. I train about 50 people each year in BSA, and issue certificates from the organization certifying me as an instructor. The training books, materials, and certificates for the courses have a cost, most of which goes to the certifying organization. When I organize and offer a course, I explain the fees associated, and I do not tack on extra fees to generate an income. Basically, I offer the training for free, but ask for a cost to cover the items above. This helps keeps costs extremely low for our volunteer leaders. And because of this practice, I have many more requests for courses than I can offer. I have to turn lots of folks away, because I do not run my training as a business as many others do. (The market rate locally for an in-person, hands-on, CPR/AED class is about $100.) I keep records of all courses, and the syllabus I teach for each specific class. After issuing certificates, I also submit a training report to council for N06, CPR/AED. Due to economic pressures in some units, I have been asked (I am purposely vague there) to provide training, but not to issue "official" certificates (due to cost), and then further asked to submit training attendance to council for N06 CPR/AED for tracking in adult leader records, so they are covered with respect to the Guide to Safe Scouting which requires "training" instead of "certification".) So, we have a distinction between the two statuses, certification versus training, with one difference: one has a paid certificate from the issuing agency, and the other does not. I have been thinking a lot about this and researching BSA "requirements" (for adults and youth), and state and federal laws and have the following observations/thoughts. 1. If a person attempts CPR and AED use without training or certification, they are covered by Good Samaritan acts and Federal legislation. 2. We would desire that everyone be "trained" in CPR and AED use. 3. Some businesses and occupations require CPR "certification." 4. Guide to Advancement 2025 does not require a certification, per se, for rank requirements or merit badges, but specifies *Note to the Counselor: CPR instruction, wherever it is required, must be taught by people currently trained as CPR instructors by a nationally certified provider such as the American Red Cross, the Emergency Care and Safety Institute, or the American Heart Association." 5. BSA has no specific prescription (that I can find) for awarding N06 training code. When entered, N06 has an expiration of 2 years, in line with all certifying agencies... Currently, I have no issue with training and testing folks according to an approved syllabus, and awarding CPR/AED N06 without them paying for a certificate. What are your thoughts? I was going to punt to BSA National Health and Safety Committee, but, as @qwazse says... 😜

Oh dear... Not too far off what was reported before NAM (16 Feb). https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf Final NAM presentation https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/NAM/2025/2 - Change the Way We Work Together.pdf Although they report the Year Over Year drop as 4%, the drop from Dec 2024, to Apr 2025 was 24.1% On the scale of GOOD to BAD... that is well on the BAD side.

Is that total (all programs) or just Scouts, BSA?

@DuctTape for National Commissioner! It's been a while, and just needed saying 😜

We track all of these at the unit level with a conditionally formatted spreadsheet. Here's just the first 14 of our 30+ registered adults. You can tell who the Committee Members are 😜 Well, those who never go camping... Fourth one down is mine When you are within 30 days of expiration, you highlight YELLOW, and our Unit Training Manager gets on your case. When you expire, you highlight RED, and then I get on your case And if it is required for an event, you do not go as an adult until you get your stuff done. We need capability and backup for contingencies. SYT (Required) Hazardous Weather SCO_800 (Required for All Outdoor Events) CPR/AED N06 (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) Safe Swim Defense SCO_801 or SSD (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) Safety Afloat SCO_802 or SA (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) Climb On Safely SCO_804 or S74 (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) Drive Safely SCO_805 (Desired) Wilderness First Aid N02 (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) 5-Jan-24 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 23-Apr-25 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 13-Nov-23 6-Jan-25 NO 16-Jul-21 15-Jul-19 NO NO NO 11-Aug-23 15-Feb-24 7-May-25 20-May-25 20-May-25 13-Feb-24 3-Oct-24 6-Apr-24 2-Jul-24 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 30-Dec-24 18-Mar-24 NO NO NO NO NO NO 7-Apr-25 20-Mar-24 NO NO NO NO NO NO 2-Jun-24 7-Dec-24 21-Dec-24 14-Dec-22 13-Dec-22 13-Dec-22 17-Aug-23 11-Mar-23 25-Nov-24 30-Apr-25 7-May-25 30-Apr-25 7-Jun-25 7-Jun-25 30-Apr-25 NO 31-Mar-24 23-Sep-23 23-Aug-23 19-Jun-24 19-Jun-24 NO 7-Jun-25 23-Aug-23 8-Mar-25 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 14-May-25 1-Oct-23 21-Dec-24 12-Jul-21 12-Jul-21 14-Feb-24 NO 30-Dec-22 2-Jul-24 12-Jun-23 11-Aug-22 4-Aug-22 8-Sep-21 17-May-21 NO 23-Apr-23 13-Jun-23 13-Jun-23 23-Apr-23 NO NO NO NO 27-May-23

I totally agree with you. But, those trainings are program specific. For example, G2SS requires Safe Swim Defense (SSD) only for a swimming activity. Safety Afloat only for boating stuff. Climb On Safely only for unit level climbing activities. Range Activities Safety only for unit level range stuff First Aid and CPR only for Safety Afloat, and not for SSD (a disconnect, IMO) Wilderness First Aid is only recommended, not required. Well, required by BSA High Adventure bases, but that is the only program that requires it A well-informed unit leader has all the above. But a TRAINED (for the position) leader is not required to have them, by BSA standards.

You must also have S11 (IOLS) and SCO 800 (Hazardous Weather) to be trained. (From the red notes below.) Now, in the G2SS, you'll find that for Cub camping, you MUST have one leader who is BALOO trained. There is no such directive on the Scouts, BSA side for IOLS. Hazardous Weather (and must be current!!) is required for all programs. The classroom versions of SM specific are better than the computer modules... You cannot ask questions or get more clarifying information from your computer modules...(yet)

Is your training status in my.scouting showing you as not trained?