Leaderboard

We're going to split the ch11.x thread in 2. The original will be kept as it was intended, for the legal aspects of the case and everything else will go here. In a nutshell, if the judge is dealing with the details of it or the lawyers are arguing over it, it goes in the old thread. Everything else goes here. That means if it's about what's morally correct vs legally correct, it goes here. If it's about the future of the chartered orgs, it goes here. If it's about what the BSA knew when, it goes here. If it's about healing, it goes here. If it's about what YP should look like, it goes here.

Sorry to butt in, I'm 7 pages behind but, please read this before you reply to anything. we're splitting this thread in 2. This thread will remain as a discussion about the legal aspects of ch 11. Everything else will go to a new thread: it's better explained there. I doubt if the moderators have the energy to sift through 50 pages and split this but we might try and split out the last day or so.

Ok, I moved some of the non legal discussion to the other thread.

Yeah, that's not quite how it worked in the asbestos claims. Bankruptcy is a federal action and the bankruptcies for that were nationwide just like this one; and any claims as of the discharge were wiped away, regardless of SOL. Those companies that went back for second or third bankruptcies did it because new claims, resulting from illnesses that began after the discharge would start accumulating. Anyone who isn't aware that child abuse is a risk anywhere at this point is never going to learn no matter how prolific you make the warnings. The belief that "It won't happen to m

@Mattr and all the other moderators ... Thank you for all you do. .... I'd say thank you also in the CH11 thread, but it's not strictly about the legalese of the case.

As mentioned before in this thread, allow 18 year old seniors to be registered as youth. While that doesn't help 19 or 20 year olds, it addresses the biggest issue. I would have the rule be for Scouts BSA Youth change to: Youth can join Scouts BSA if they have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old, OR have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old, OR are age 11 but have not reached 18 OR have not completed 12 grade and are under 19 years. To age into Scouts BSA: Complete 5th grade and at least 10 years old Earned AOL and at le

Understood and agreed.

As well, many many thanks. We may not always agree but at a time when people "tune in" to only the media that support their existing opinions, it's wonderful to read opposing sides and evaluate our own beliefs. One more vote for trying to keep this civil and also recognizing how hard that is when the subject touches us all so deeply.

"Fire me?" (The very, very short answer is YES, National can "FIRE YOU." And it has fired volunteers for non-sexual abuse reasons (political), fired units, and sanctioned councils.) I came across your post while looking for something else. But I have returned to respond-as I must. My conscience will not permit me to pass by your post without comment. Everyone should know the things that I know. "But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career." --Liam Neeson playing Bryan Mills in Taken. In my case, substitute

One problem with intense litigation: … it discourages voluntary reporting. But, from what I’ve come to understand, it depends. Formidable predators (let’s consider the adult serial rapist) may get their start at an early age … but avoid getting caught at the time. Some (not all) homosexuals who’ve talked to me about their history became sexually active at an early age with young women or men just a couple of years older. It is taken as gospel by those with a permissive sexual ethic that young people either have sex or talk about it or share images/videos about it a lot … ofte

There's some really interesting stuff there from Barry. Here in the UK scouts is fully coed and what Barry says rings true. While of course there are exceptions as a very broad brush comment girls tend to be better at getting something right first time, boys though tend to be better at fixing it when it goes wrong. So put them on a pioneering project and the girls may well come up with a beautifully lashed contraption quicker. However watch for those projects that suddenly don't work and it tends to be the boys that figure out the work around. That is not to say coed scouts doesn't w

As moderators we are charged with a responsibility to monitor the content of this forum. All of us are volunteers and have also been involved in Scouting for a number of years. We consider it both an honor and a responsibility to be asked to moderate. We are sensitive to the fact that we have a wide variety of readers using the forum. And this may include young readers at times. So generally we try to maintain a G or at least a PG level discussions when it is possible. This is challenging given the nature of the topics which are discussed here. I think the general rule is to try to

It's a loss for your unit, but I agree. I don't see any way for a an 18 year old to live their life normally and be a registered ASM following the YPT rules as written, if they have younger friends still in the Troop. Obviously, I'm a hypocrite, because I did it. I'm not sure how aware I was that hanging out with my friends outside of Scouts was a YPT violation. I'd like to say I followed the spirit of the rules, but not the letter of them. But I wouldn't recommend that to somebody else do what I did.

Which is why my son is not becoming a Scouter, and why I am backing him up in his decision 100%.

And so WHY would National drape itself in the American Flag, yet DENY the fundamental principles of which that Flag symbolizes?

I don't know as much about this as you. I do know that many good scouters have had their memberships revoked without good cause. I believe what you are saying is true. That said, I think your use of the term "Death Warrant" is unnecessarily hyperbolic. The facts are damning enough.

Significant donors in my council have walked away from making any donations.

Now, dropping this on the other side of the net. With permission. Let me know if this doesn't work, please. WSJ BSA 8.30.21.pdf

Exactly. There's no such thing as "This bankruptcy only good for claims in the following states". It is ALL claims and debts owed as of the bar claim date (and some incurred during the pendency of the bankruptcy such as general operating expenses) nationwide. I agree that this makes the situation involving the legal status of SoLs problematic. A person in State X for example, may have no claim TODAY against BSA due to the SoL but by next August WILL under a new state law that lifts the SoL in State X. From a purely legal standpoint, that is what makes this even more of a challenge as

Cheap summary from my local area ... I'm amazed how few units / CORs / COs are taking this seriously. Maybe it's not hit their visibility yet. My meeting with the CO executive was ... Do you want to oversee the leadership selection and unit program? Answer no. Do you see scouting as core to something the church elders want to oversee? Answer no. How is scouting perceived in the church? Answer - It's a nice community organization supporting youth that we want to support as a church. BUT, it's not aligned with the church goals as the church alre

To repeat @MikeS72 post and https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/

The reason why my 17 year old Eagle, soon to be 18 years old, is not staying on either as an ASM, a Unit College Scouter Reserve, or Merit Badge Counselor is because of the YP policy that expands no 1 on 1 contact outside of Scouting. He has friends and family under 18 involved in Scouting. Under YP rules not only would he have to cease and desist contact with them, but also he would not be able to share a room with his younger brother when he is home from college on the weekends. His best friend is 17 and in high school still. As soon as he turns 18, he too will quit Scouting because of

On that note, whenever you become very informed on a topic, you realize the typical journalist is not an expert on the subjects they report on.

Not two deep. 1 on 1. You likely aren't spending significant time alone with an individual student. They're almost always in groups. There does end up being some very minimal time where a student and teacher may be alone during a class change because a student is first in, or last out. Normally the hallway is filled with activity, so it's not really 1 on 1. Where there becomes some significant risk is before or after school. That can be easily solved by teachers grouping up in a shared classroom before or after school to meet individual students that need extra instruction. N

Directly from the Barriers to Abuse FAQ: There are careers that may require one-on-one contact with youth, however aside from those roles, volunteers must abide by the youth protection policies of the BSA even outside of Scouting activities.

I thought so as well, but couldn't find any acceptations for family. At this point, it looks like he will not register. I talked with a few in our Troop and technically, if he keeps his participation to less than 72 hours he is fine. 18 year old Eagle Scout ... sorry buddy, take a hike as the BSA doesn't need you. What is crazy is that 18 year olds don't even count as adult leaders for 2 deep leadership... so 18, 19 & 20 year olds are pretty much considered nothing but a liability to the BSA (outside the hundred left in Venturing). To me, BSA should allow high sch

The only answer is to stop scouting or stop being a friend of the 17 year old. Also, since they are in the same school and same robotics team, end that as well. That is the only way for it to work. I expect BSA would agree. Its not worth the trouble. How many cases of sex abuse were new 18 year old ASMs assualting their 17 year old ... my guess is almost 0, but that doesn't matter. One other question, as I have one other 18 year old ASM. Is it ok for an Adult to be one on one with their youth sibling? I have a 18 year old ASM who has a 13 year old brother .. both in the Troop. The

With permission. Boy Scouts Are Close to New Deal With Insurer Hartford on Sex-Abuse Claims.pdf

Family Scouting: As I have understood the BSA's use of the term "Family Scouting", it means operating a linked-Troop concept and not the idea of having non-Scouter family members going along on monthly campouts. Our all-girl Troop is a stand-alone unit and is therefore not "Family Scouting". I do not support non-Scouter family members attending monthly campouts and offer the following experience as support. For the last two years we experimented by celebrating the end of the program year with a combined May campout and Court of Honor at a nearby location. The families were invite

We don't know WHAT would happen. Per US law/the Congressional Charter the IP belongs to BSA. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905 We have never, ever, had a Congressionally Chartered org go into Chapter 7. The question came up early: can a BANKRUPTCY judge set aside federal law and declare certain provisions like that void? The answer is probably no, she cannot; it would have to go into U.S. District Court.

A big consideration is whether National survives and controls its intellectual property. If National is liquidated, depending on who purchases National's intellectual property, there may be no Scout Handbooks published in the future until they come into the public domain. That could be a couple of decades. Someone seeking to continue a Scouting program in the absence of National will be purchasing Scout Handbooks from eBay. And rank patches and medals. And, whomever operates the unit will not have any insurance (they may not have any now). And they will need to make arrangeme

Three reasons. $$$

Sadly, this is pretty much accurate, especially here in our screwed up legal system. Until there is a major course correction in our systems, the problems will continue to show up and often play to the benefit of mostly the questionable legal people that prey on emotion and technical semantic manipulation.

Sounds like a great troop. Ours functioned much the same way. I instructed the scouters in my adult training classes that if they would focus on a quality older scout program, they will inherit a quality younger scout program. Troops tend to do the reverse leaving the older scout program as more of just a hang out for the scouts and fill in when they are needed. Older scouts need to set the tone of the program just as you said so the younger scouts learn good habits simply by seeing them in action. Barry

This is probably where scouting will go, for insurance purposes, but it is the death of scouting as a program where youth develop character through the process of making independent decisions. My experience is under 14 scouts aren't instinctively mature for leadership, leaving the adults to intercede when the growth stalls. Scouting is the one true program that develops maturity to confront the realities of adulthood. Now what? Barry

Definitely some good points here. One of the problems I have encountered is the constant back-and-forth wherein one group says the other side is normalizing hedonistic behavior and the other group is saying the other side is cleaving to archaic principles that have little value in a modern day society. While having an open discussion is certainly worth the time... as an interim fix... I tell my scouts and parents the approach should be easy. If they focus on abstinence until adulthood, then none of the other stuff really matters. Once a young person has reached the age of 25, and has a f

NO judge in a bankruptcy has ever forced a cramdown on victims. Now, if it gets to a point or two from 2/3 then perhaps but not much more than that. As well, sexual abuse bankruptcy decisions have seen 90% agreement as a standard from judges because they want that much agreement. The judge is realistic and won't have that high a standard but cramming down a decision when half a group disagrees would be unprecedented. That might also be the reason why she is so interested in how claims were generated and whether they should turn into votes.

Never said YPT was a game, it is not. The comment Or you can just not play the game is related to the obviously overreach in the YPT requirements. I was pointing out the position the YPT rules (note - not a game) puts leaders wanting to be compliant, The rule "outside of scouting" is vague at best and a CYA by BSA at worst. No other youth group, sports team, etc has compliance rules (likely short of arrests) that cover the same thing. Nor is there a legitimate way to actually enforce said rule. Great point on the 18 YO texting his 17 YO best friend about something. Clear violation.

I meant if the school was to have it's own rules that were similar to the BSA's. If I was a teacher, for instance, I would not want to have 1 on 1 contact with a student, nor would I have any need of it. Applying such a 1 on 1 rule to 18 and 17 year old students would grind the school to halt. When I was an 18 year old ASM, I counted for 2 deep. I will also admit, I didn't stop spending time with my friends outside of BSA events. Mostly me and my friends who were 16-17 hung out in group settings anyways, not that I was worried about applying that YPT rule to them. I did apply YPT rul

If schools attempted to apply such a rule it would grind the system to a halt. A senior QB wants to throw extra passes to an under 18 wide receiver after school? Nope. An 18 year old senior drives an under 18 year old neighbor to school? Nope. A 18 year old student and a 17 year old student meet at a parents house to work on a project? Nope. Again, I'm a big proponent of YPT. I'll defend it religiously. It's well intentioned, and for 99% of situations it makes a good deal of sense. When Parents and Leaders are following it and holding each other accountable to it, it should work well. In t

There is nothing to propose. He can't do both without violating YPT. He has to choose one or the other. Please let us know what he decides. The really interesting part of this ridiculous discussion is about what he is supposed to do if he should be required to interact with youth members at school. Should he obey the YPT or should he follow school rules and regulations.

The rule pertaining to no one on one contact between scouts and adults is a youth protection standard. YPT is not a “game”. And adult scout leaders keeping secrets is exactly how we got into 82,500 sexual abuse claims

I definitely understand the sentiment. The way I explain it to my ASMs and scouts is simple... take Locke. Hobbes, and Payne... they influence Thomas Jefferson's viewpoint of the civil society and the social contract that binds them together. If you participate in the society... you have to abide by the social contract. This is similar to scouting... if you choose to participate... you have to follow the rules (whether you agree with them or not). There are a lot of laws, statutes, and ordinances that I may not agree with... but accept to follow them because I want to participate in scouting.

But as the judge noted: even the statistician said that here data could NOT be used to generalize whether any given claim was/was not valid. She was a good statistician: even if I prove 75% of all apples sampled from a bag are rotten, that does NOT mean or prove the NEXT apple you pull from the bag is 100% sure to be rotten. You have to pull it and find out.

Ah yes, the grey zone of YPT.. The way the rules are written, 18 year olds are Adults for YPT purposes, no 1 on 1 contact at Scout events and outside of them too. I became an ASM at 18 during my Senior year of High School. My Troop and I followed the no 1 on 1 contact rule in Scouting events seriously. The friends I had before turning 18 I still hung out with outside of Scouting. I wasn't going to give up spending time with my friends outside of Scouts just to be a Scout volunteer. The youth I worked with in the Troop that weren't my peers in school or close friends prior to turnin

Correct.... it should never be about the money or prestige... it should always focus on helping young people become the best versions of themselves. That doesn't take a million-dollar salary to do... especially if you adhere to "servant" leadership principles.

I wear the white NESA neckerchief at all Eagle Courts of Honor. Kind of like a brotherhood thing. Hopefully it inspires younger scouts.

36"x36" also works better when used as a triangle bandage. The smaller size does not work well for a sling or a head bandage.

One consideration for a practical neckerchief is to cut squares instead of triangles. I suggest making the adult neckerchief larger than the Scouts'. You may have the material cut to size, stitched or hemmed and have a color design sewn on. You may consider having a troop contest for the choice of logo. You can use a stencil technique or silk screen with permanent ink for finishing the design yourself. At one time, the neckerchief could be used for a head bandage, arm sling, or ankle support. The smaller triangle neckerchiefs can only be used for decoration and custom. The smal

Owl162, I, too, am quite attached to the wearing of the neckerchief. As you point out they are both traditional and look sharp. In answer to your queries. 1. Yes, we have adopted a troop neckerchief. 2. We wear a custom neckerchief. 3. We wear our neckerchief under the collar. No one has asked or wanted to wear it with collar turned under. 4. Our neckerchief is red with black piping and embroidered with our troop logo. We purchase the blank neckerchiefs and have them embroidered locally. 5. Boys and adults wear the same troop neckerchief. We present new scouts with t