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yknot last won the day on June 15

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About yknot

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  1. 4H members can also do high adventure and more outdoors oriented projects depending on the state and county but the process is very different and there is more parent involvement. 4H offers almost everything, so it is a fine slice of the membership pie but then again 4H enrolls many, many more kids than scouting. I think the membership now is over 6 million. Many 4H clubs, regardless of what subject, still camp as part of the experience and also attend 4H camp. When I was young, we camped with an adult leader, but it was generally a group bunkhouse at a camp. You were never really alone with a
  2. That's why I said Google yourself for headlines and cases and see what you think. I find very few. Google Scout Leader Sex Abuse and 4H Leader Sex Abuse and see what pops up once you get past the recent mass filing. If cases were as rampant in 4H as in scouting, wouldn't someone somewhere have been filing more cases than the handful that come up? It also was and is a different environment. Before two deep, the whole advancement process in scouting with scoutmaster conferences, sign offs, skills demonstration, etc. created a lot of opportunities for a predator to cut a kid from the herd. In 4H,
  3. One of the differences to explain it might be that 88% of abuse perpetrators are male. Scouts, especially at the troop level, has been predominantly male. 4H leadership gender varies. There is plenty of camping and outdoor activity in 4H, but the leader/member dynamic is also completely different. Most of the 4H I was involved with was also kid run, but the program really didn't have a lot of opportunity for one on one contact with a leader. Just based on headlines, there seem to be very few cases of abuse in 4H. Google scout abuse and you get dozens if not hundreds of hits for cases filed or
  4. Some version of the ineligible volunteers files have been in existence since 1919. They were referenced in the 1930s. BSA long knew it was a particular target for pedophiles. 4-H is also a 100 plus year old legacy youth organization and no such files exist there.
  5. I think they have no idea. There has been no communication from BSA to the COs other than what has been funneled through Councils. That is mostly a feel good message and in many cases there is no communication channel from the Council/District/Unit to the CO. I don't know about other CO groups, but from what I've seen from the UMC, it's still largely very vague and muted. They are concerned but still want to support scouts, at least according to the latest information I've seen. I think it's unethical that BSA is not being more forthcoming, especially with the smaller and individual CO groups.
  6. That would be a best case scenario if it is limited to the BSA relationship with COs. In a worst case, zombie world scenario, we could see hundreds of local small COs wiped out or affected by this. For example, the Methodist Church. I work with is a state based council. A host of smaller churches by me are barely functional, but they do have some property and assets. If the UMC had to respond to the cases in our state as a council, it would likely result in the closure and sale of dozens of small churches, their parsonages, some local camp properties, community buildings, etc. If Chapter 11 is
  7. I have wondered that as well. However, while many COs are poor, many are rich so I guess it would be worth it to drill down to that level in the long run. But that would take so much time.
  8. I think that's largely going to be the Councils going forward? Could be good, could be bad. It might force Councils to finally understand and deal with local unit issues if they are knee deep in them. One of the dysfunctional aspects of the scouting structure is that we have different levels operating in different directions to meet different goals. This might collapse the CO/Unit/District/Council layers into one more functional entity. The bad side could be if instead of learning Councils simply tried to mandate down to units.
  9. What I have seen in numerous COs near me is that they are mostly legacy units with relationships going back decades in the community and the members have no idea what those relationships are other than to provide meeting space and benign support. All they know is that once a year some nice person from the local boy scout troop whom they have known for years stops by and asks them to sign something. Some COs were very hands on because they used scouting as an outgrowth of their youth programming and ministry. Others may have started out like that, but over the decades as church memberships
  10. That is something I agree with. The uniform today I think is more for nostalgic adults than the kids. It should be a survey question. It's the only activity I can think of other than marching band where I hear kids regularly complain about discomfort. They are basically still wearing what an old British guy -- a Lord no less -- wore in 1910.
  11. The only numbers we have that are not anecdotal are the claims that were filed. Until they are further analyzed to either accept or deny them, they represent a factual data point. Everything else is conjecture. You say you are being careful about how you select your data, but several times it has been pointed out that comparing the number of claims filed in the current day to the past universe of scouting alumni of 110 million, most of whom are likely now dead or incapacitated, is not valid. I think it is also important to acknowledge that asking survivors to file claims is not the same as con
  12. I think there is another way that has been used in other class action suits, often regarding health issues. They have the data in the claims, some of which has already been entered. Once the data is input, it's not difficult to mine for corroborating clusters of cases in certain physical locations, in certain time frames, among certain councils, units, or camps, and cross check any incomplete claims against claims with identified and known abusers. For example, you might have a cohort of scouts in X region during Y timeframe who attended Z camp. If they can be matched up to a subset who were
  13. That's interesting. I did not appreciate that distinction.
  14. I don't think you can have institutions taking things into their own hands when it comes to reporting YP incidents. That's how I think this whole thread got started. The discussion has been about degree -- some (me and others) feel it should not occur at all, others have argued it has a role. The topic initially came up as a result of a document used in one particular church, but it has not to my mind targeted that church. I haven't been thinking about that church when writing comments. I've been thinking about the process and how its delineated in the various states. I think you are seeing th
  15. Is that where you want to start, though? With the perspective that immediate reporting won't matter because it's going to take an hour or a day anyway? Again, you're not hearing me. Part of the problem with YP is that we have had a lack of urgency about it. We need more urgency to get better. That's what I'm aiming at. Not continuing the status quo. Getting better. Also, I think reaction times depend on the situation, the agency, and the people involved. I have seen immediate response. Jumping out of bed in the middle of night and knocking on a door response. I have also seen institutionalize
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