AltadenaCraig

In 1980, Claremont Men's College graduated the first class of 4-year women. Years later the name was changed to Claremont McKenna College, but not before many women objected to the change. They liked the "rebel" image the name implied.

We're less in disagreement and more in violent agreement, it seems to me. I'm not advocating changing 'Scoutmaster' - I agree with those who say its not a priority. And I don't believe "the patch makes the leader (or tyrant)". What I do believe is in the current climate anything can become a target for the cancel-culture (heck, this weekend some were castigating old broadcast jokes in an attempt to shade Vin Scully - even Giants fans have been coming to his defense!), and consequently we should Be Prepared. To be sure, in the vein of "never let a crises go to waste" a couple of things have emerged from this thread: 1) There are Scouters who have expressed legitimate misgivings about the names 'Scoutmaster' & 'Cubmaster' (surprised me), and as you say that could be testable in the greater population (and likely should be for go-forward marketing surveys; and 2) there are Scouters who've also made legitimate points that "Advisor" would be a preferable alternative (which should also be tested). Any change would have to demonstrate a considerable benefit-to-cost. At present I agree the kitchen isn't hot enough to make a change on cost avoidance alone. Nevertheless the discussion has illuminated some things and I think made us better prepared.

I disagree with you. I've been thinking all day about your post. I'll risk hijacking my own thread and reply as it allows a point I feel is important. I'm happy to post "I disagree with you" - and I'm thankful you posted your disagreement with me, without a downvote. Words move the ball forward. But there's nothing courteous or kind about a red down-arrow on one's post. How many of our fellow Scouters are turned-off from contributing their opinions because they'd feel a downvote is unfriendly? Isn't that a legitimate consideration?

To @qwazse's credit, his downvotes were accompanied by comments.

This EXACTLY makes the point. Sisyphus had more success rolling his rock than we should expect to have attempting to justify 'master' because the audience is not our leadership trainees but rather all the others we wish to attract. Among ourselves questioning "Scoutmaster" sounds silly, I completely agree. But to expect showing others "how the term 'master' has been used as titles" is preposterous. I'm on board with scoutldr's suggestion to appropriate "Advisor".

Well, since you asked, I don't think it should be on the forum. There's a reason it's not an option on Facebook, for example. A downvote is aggressive, IMHO, and has no place except perhaps in outrageous posts; and even then the better option is to "report". Ditch the downvote. Now back to the topic at hand ...

You would do well to familiarize yourself with the article referenced in the OP. References such as those smack exactly of the kind of "tyrants and tin gods, renegades and recalcitrants, bullies and belligerents, dictators, martinets, and “world’s oldest Patrol Leaders” masquerading as Scoutmasters" we need to eschew. And no, I'm not so mean-spirited as to downvote your post.

One man's hype to panic weak minded Chicken Littles is another man's Being Prepared, which we do teach the youth. I'm keeping my powder dry as I lean toward Nonsense, but I'm also contemplating alternatives just in case. #1 on my list: "Scoutguider".

When a Texas realty group abandons the term "Master Bedroom", how long before references to "Scoutmaster" meet the same fate? https://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article243816787.html Truth be told, Clarke Green and 'Ask Andy' have long observed that the B-P coined "Scoutmaster" as it related to "Schoolmaster", emphasizing the "teacher" aspect rather than "master" in the day. An important distinction if you're adhering to Scout-led-troop principles: the true 'master' is the SPL, with SM's & ASM's as "teachers". https://scoutmastercg.com/just-what-does-scoutmaster-mean/. To be sure, I find myself occasionally using the redundant "Adult Scouter" simply to avoid using "Adult Leader", a term which frosts me because I want the leaders in my troops to be the scouts, not the adults. Nevertheless, I'd prefer any changes in titles to be on OUR terms and not because we're kowtowing to unreasonable demands of PC run amok.

I like the idea of Rovers and I like the idea of proficiency for Rovers. I even like the idea of a Scout proficiency award (perhaps mandatory for the "Instructor" position), requiring some form of re-testing to maintain currency. Yet I'm hesitant to require currency of all scouts. The reason is Baden-Powell's attitude toward proficiency as described in his "Aids to Scoutmastership": That's from The Boss, himself.

Don't fetch your mourning armband just yet, @desertrat77, at least not for OA. Every other youth program I've been associated with - Little League & AYSO - each had an All Star component. Some All Star program will naturally accompany Scouting, in whatever form survives, to meet the needs of those who just can't get enough as well as serve as a beacon for others. We need an All Star program, and for better or worse OA is ours. I do believe there are Sacred Cows within the OA. Any traditions that smack of "Cultural Appropriation" (dancing, regalia, etc.) even now are being hustled out the back door so fast they won't even get the dignified burial. That doesn't mean all of OA has to be sacrificed, however. The honor a scout finds in performing cheerful service to others is worth preserving. If not direct Native American heritage, what else could serve as an alternative OA touchstone? Returning to the All Star concept, combining its mission of Camping promotion with "minimalist" theme of leave-no-trace and what do you have? Highly mobile backpackers devoted to Ultralight principles. There's enough skills and equipment adjustments in Ultrilight to more than make up for the loss of beadwork, leggings, & chokers. And its traditions still harken indirectly to Native American roots. Retain cheerful service, break out the Ultralight handbook, and cancel the wake for the OA.

The story broke yesterday: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/n-j-judge-spared-teen-rape-suspect-because-he-came-n1026111 NBC doesn't mention "Eagle Scout" until the end of the article. Other news outlets aren't being so charitable (with headlines screaming "Eagle Scout Rape Suspect!") Bad situation all around.

I'll mention I don't think the two traits are mutually exclusive. To be sure, the Lao Tzu quote isn't a license for Scoutmasters to abdicate their responsibilities to guide & mentor ... for me the quote is a reminder to work with the SPL in the background and not hog her spotlight (I'm now the Scoutmaster of our girls' troop). If there's an issue with a scout beyond the scope of the PL/SPL I'll try to work with that scout more directly, but even less obtrusively. Safety issues aside, of course, which require immediate intervention. YIS - - Craig

I'm inclined toward Lao Tzu's quote in the Troop Leader Guidebook: A leader is most effective when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: "we did it ourselves"

Highly astute observation, @fred8033. As BSA uniforms through the years have mirrored service fatigues, headgear, etc., I'm surprised BSA has allowed the uniform to drift toward "dress" and away from "functional" (shoulder loops?). All the more surprising what with the availability of technical fabrics. And the Army's recent field uniforms (BDU/ACU) have been designed toward functional, with liberal use of Velcro. Highly agree @Jameson76. Here're my suggestions for getting back to functional: Cut should be straight (without tail), and insist it NOT be tucked-in (imitating recent Army field uniform - ACU - which isn't tucked). To be sure, best practice for hiking layers is they should be "worn loosely". Long-sleeve only. Design should allow sleeves either be down or rolled-up & tabbed (a la the ACU). Velcro position patches - again, akin to the ACU - Absolutely! Fabric: technical “hiking” fabric. Columbia PFG is a good model. Bring back the neckerchiefs. Make them out of kerchief fabric that would actually promote their wear on a hike. For particularly messy or rambunctious activity, a troop-specific A-4 worn underneath would provide the best of both worlds. Oh, and one more thing: ditch the shoulder loops.