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Everything posted by Jameson76

  1. This is the statement. Not out of context, the whole sentence: It will be up to local Cub Scout Packs, parents and chartered partners to choose whether to include boys and girls in family packs or only serve boys or girls; we anticipate a similar structure at the Boy Scouts level. Clearly the intention (similar) is to have "family" and / or co-ed troops This was the statement on 10/20 (a clarifying statement from the Big 3 junta) While our curriculum is relevant both to boys and girls, our commitment to single-gender offerings remains the same. Our decision does not make our programs co-ed. It is apparently going to be co-ed. There will be separate but equal troops no doubt AND (my editorial license) parents and chartered partners to choose whether to include boys and girls in family troops Challenge will be that right now we go to market (basically) with 2 versions CUB and SCOUTS. Soon there will be: (one would presume) 1)CUBS - Boys 2) CUBS - Girls 3) CUBS - Boys and Girls (separate dens) 4) CUBS - Family packs 5) SCOUTS - Boys 6) SCOUTS - Girls 7) SCOUTS - Boys and Girls (separate patrols ??) 8) SCOUTS - Family troops Good luck to the huddles masses yearning to joining Scouts finding the unit in the derivation they desire
  2. Good Lord - time to move on Siblings / Kids staying with parents / Kid with the soccer ball needs to be dealt with Yes Yes Yes - Same feedback we have had. There was a really great parent we approached to be active in outings, he advised son had asked him to not be as they wanted their space. We did have a place for him behind the scenes. He went to camp with us for the week (we take 55 - 60 each time to two different camps each summer) I honestly did not see him speak to his son at all except on Saturday when we loaded up and headed home
  3. We looked at Summit and while it was interesting, for what is offered there, I can do it for 1/2 the cost locally (we live in a state with mountains, etc). As has been noted, more experience and less actual high adventure You do have a good catch on the legacy portion. Part of the beauty of Philmont (other than the actual beauty) is that it looks very similar and the trek is very similar to what was done 40 - 50 years ago or longer. I went as a youth, then went 10 years later as an Explorer post advisor (all of this in the 70' and 80'). Then I went 3 years ago with my son and current troop. Except for the better equipment available, it was really the same experience. Most of the scouts we send today all come down with IWTGBTP syndrome. Maybe in 20 - 30 years if it survives the Summit will have some of that, but now, do not see it and no real attraction. Though I might want to swing by and see what $500MM buys in a camp property.
  4. The TPG's (Trading Post Girls) are all part of the marketing plan...a plan to extract as much cash from campers as possible
  5. Assuming $100 profit from each attendee and with the Jamboree in 2021, would need 1,360,000 to attend. That is doable
  6. Just for fun also note that in 2012 National Council issues debt to finance the development of the Summit, $175 MILLION in 10 Year tax exempt bonds. There is a balloon payment of $136 MILLION in 2022. Guess National will start admitting emotional support animals...for the right fee
  7. If you wonder where the cash went or is in fact going, look at page 35 of the Annual Report (2016). There is Note 5 which details Land, Building, and Equipment. High Adventure bases (Philmont / Sea Base / Northern Tier) less accumulated depreciation of $28 million are on the books for $53 million Summit less accumulated deprecation of $30 million is on the books for...wait for it....$364 million dollars. Yes Summit is on the books for almost 7 TIMES the value of the other 3 High Adventure bases. I find that concerning. If BSA dumped that kind of cash and infrastructure there, just the debt service is ridiculous.
  8. Good Lord the amount of cash dumped into the Summit is likely never to be known. You know they are selling day passes and locals passes to the Summit for non Scouts to generate up some cash, right? It is literally trying to do everything for everyone, sort of Disneyesque. And it it hemorrhaging cash daily. As we speak of surveys and market research, what crystal ball told them there was untapped and unfulfilled need for a high adventure base in WV?
  9. For none of these ranks does it say how far away from home, etc the camp should be. If they meet the requirement, then sure For Tenderfoot the requirments Camping and Outdoor Ethics 1a. Present yourself to your leader, prepared for an overnight camping trip. Show the personal and camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it. 1b. Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop[1] campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch. 1c. Tell how you practiced the Outdoor Code on a campout or outing Cooking 2a. On the campout, assist in preparing one of the meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup. 2b. While on a campout, demonstrate an appropriate method of safely cleaning items used to prepare, serve, and eat a meal. 2c. Explain the importance of eating together as a patrol For Second Class Camping and Outdoor Ethics 1a. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in five separate troop/patrol[1] activities, at least three of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least two must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol[1] meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee. 1a. On Aug 1, 2017, this requirement will become: Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in five separate troop/patrol activities, at least three of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least two must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee. 1b. Explain the seven principles of Leave No Trace and tell how you practiced them on a campout or outing. This outing must be different from the one used for "Tenderfoot requirement 1c". 1c. On one of these campouts, select a location for your patrol site and recommend it to your patrol leader, senior patrol leader, or troop[1] guide. Explain what factors you should consider when choosing a patrol site and where to pitch a tent. Cooking and Tools 2a. Explain when it is appropriate to use a fire for cooking or other purposes and when it would not be appropriate to do so. 2b. Use the tools listed in Tenderfoot requirement 3d to prepare tinder, kindling, and fuel wood for a cooking fire. 2c. At an approved outdoor location and time, use the tinder, kindling, and fuel wood from "Second Class requirement 2b" to demonstrate how to build a fire. Unless prohibited by local fire restrictions, light the fire. After allowing the flames to burn safely for at least two minutes, safely extinguish the flames with minimal impact to the fire site. 2e. On one campout, plan and cook one hot breakfast or lunch, selecting foods from MyPlate or the current USDA nutritional model. Explain the importance of good nutrition. Demonstrate how to transport, store, and prepare the foods you selected. For First Class Camping and Outdoor Ethics 1a. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol[1] activities, at least six of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least three must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee. 1a. On Aug 1, 2017, this requirement will become: Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, at least six of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least three must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee. 1b. Explain each of the principles of Tread Lightly! and tell how you practiced them on a campout or outing. This outing must be different from the ones used for Tenderfoot requirement 1c and Second Class requirement 1b. Cooking 2a. Help plan a menu for one of the above campouts that includes at least one breakfast, one lunch, and one dinner, and that requires cooking at least two of the meals. Tell how the menu includes the foods from MyPlate or the current USDA nutritional model and how it meets nutritional needs for the planned activity or campout. 2b. Using the menu planned in First Class requirement 2a, make a list showing a budget and the food amounts needed to feed three or more boys. Secure the ingredients. 2c. Show which pans, utensils, and other gear will be needed to cook and serve these meals. 2d. Demonstrate the procedures to follow in the safe handling and storage of fresh meats, dairy products, eggs, vegetables, and other perishable food products. Show how to properly dispose of camp garbage, cans, plastic containers, and other rubbish. 2e. On one campout, serve as cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in First Class requirement 2a. Supervise the cleanup.
  10. This is from the 10/11 announcement Families today are busier and more diverse than ever. Most are dual-earners and there are more single-parent households than ever before [1], making convenient programs that serve the whole family more appealing. Additionally, many groups currently underserved by Scouting, including the Hispanic and Asian communities, prefer to participate in activities as a family. Recent surveys [2] of parents not involved with Scouting showed high interest in getting their daughters signed up for programs like Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, with 90 percent expressing interest in a program like Cub Scouts and 87 percent expressing interest in a program like Boy Scouts. Later the BIG 3 re-affirmed we were not going Coed So the big deal is families and convenience etc etc. One stop shopping, all these millions of people itching to join if only..... For Cubs - Let's assume the family has 2 kids Tim in 4th grade and Tina in 2nd grade. Going on the current plan of NOT COED but assuming the pack has Male and Female dens, poor old mom will only have 1 meeting per month that will be coordinated. The Den meetings will likely be at separate times. They would be on the same campouts, but that is maybe 2 activities per year. Also I guess they could be at day camp together, not 100% sure. She still has to schlep around to different meeting locations and times. When Tim is in 5th grade and Webelos typically those (now patrols/dens) might camp as a den, so I guess Tina and family could come, not 100% sure Then Tim crosses over and he would be in a Male troop and Tina would still be in cubs. Current scouting is not really a family event. In a couple of years Tina could join a girls troop, but not sure if there meeting night, events, etc would coordinate with Tim's troop. Again, they could be at separate outings on opposite weekends. Do not see how this will be easier on the under served family than current setup.
  11. But that is the fun of tubing, the aloft part as you skip them off the wake and watch them fly off skimming over the lake. Good times
  12. Yep I see that now Tow sports seems to indicate YES Tow Sports All participants in towed activity afloat (waterskiing, wakeboarding, kneeboarding, tubing, etc.) must have successfully completed the BSA swimmer classification test and must wear a life jacket with an impact rating consistent with the activity. Supervision must include both a skilled boat driver currently trained in Safety Afloat and a separate observer. Participants should observe the Water-Skiers Safety Code and the Boat Drivers Safety Code found in Aquatics Supervision, No. 34346. Use only floats specifically designed for towing that provide secure handholds for each rider. Yet (Thank you search function) Unauthorized and Restricted Activities 15. Parasailing, or any activity in which a person is carried aloft by a parachute, parasail, kite, or other device towed by a motorboat, including a tube, or by any other means, is unauthorized. As Tow sports is on page 20 (Good lord 105 pages of G2SS) I stopped reading there and tubing will continue
  13. Candidly not sure we follow 100% of these, but many are allowed in some form Paintball - Yep have to use targets to be compliant Laser Tag - Yep have to use targets to be compliant Water guns - Not specifically mentioned by name Water Tubing - Tubing is allowed with PFD's Four wheeling - As part of council program to be compliant Personal Water Craft - Yep Towed Para Sailing - Yep Hot Air Balloon rides - Yep unless tethered Dodgeball ( i still argue this it's different that using paint/laser guns) - Well not mentioned by name so...... Introductory Karate Class with qualified instructors - Yep Certain pioneering projects - Yep due to height
  14. My word that is bad. Our troop has 100 +/- in the unit, in the 10 years I have been with this trip only have had this happen once. Mom and younger sibling came as we were camped at a State park. No specific issue until her second trip into the scouts area. We had a word and then she went to another part of the SP. Obviously the Leader is not really a leader but a parent. Most of our scouts would be the first one to not want "parents" and especially younger siblings camping with us. We do have some conversations with some leaders on a little too much help. Try to keep it upbeat and it typically works. Also on this one Apparently his troop growing up allowed siblings and did a lot of family camping. Wow...that is a whole lot of fail there, maybe time to move on
  15. You have noted the heart of the matter - so that on Day 1 there are actually troops in place, with charters and leaders and youth members and meeting rooms and camping schedules, maybe some equipment, maybe a bank account, maybe a troop flag, maybe some training already done, maybe the handbooks and leader books and program helps and etc. already in the hands of those who need them, the whole nine yards, all ready to go. That is the real crux of the situation, who is going to do all the training, recruiting, etc. Actually starting new troops (not including outreach council setup troops) is not that common. Yes there are new leaders that need to be trained, but starting from scratch is not the norm. There will likely be much standing around and wondering, then they will want to head down the street, or within the same CO to join or "sister" with an existing troop. Maybe that is the actual plan, I feel there is much hope for the best and the assumptions that current volunteers will just work it out. For many current troops not sure how that will be in reality. Troops are usually (right or wrong) their own social units. Scouts gravitate to the one that meets their needs and is comfortable. You upset that social order and suddenly you may not have a troop. On the Cub side most packs have enough challenge to effectively staff dens, much less double up the dens for co-ed operations.
  16. Interesting Op Ed piece by Sylvia Acevedo, a rocket scientist, entrepreneur, executive and lifelong Girl Scout, is CEO of Girl Scouts of the USA https://www.jsonline.com/story/opinion/2017/10/24/girls-star-in-girl-scouts-supporting-players-again-in-boy-scouts-sylvia-acevedo-column/790244001/ Some quotes - "We believe strongly in the importance of the safe, all-girl, girl-led and girl-friendly environment that Girl Scouts provides. " "At Girl Scouts, girls aren’t the ancillary tag-along or supporting player — they are the central character." "strong female role models show them they can be anything they want to be." Interesting that if a current member of Boy Scouts posits the same thoughts (change out Boy for Girl and Male for Female) then that person is perhaps a conditional scout or not embracing of change. Possibly not demonstrating the Oath and Law sufficiently
  17. We had a ghost troop at the camp I worked at, typically only heard it on weekends. We were doing the basic movement of tents, etc on a Saturday. We heard a troop swimming etc at the waterfront, walked down there, nothing. Many of us heard it over the years. You never saw anything, just voices, splashing, etc. On another note there was the the ghosts of dining hall pizza that came around later in the evenings after it was served, but that is another whole tale.
  18. And you have summed up the issues, the Professional and Board Room of Scouting versus (sadly that is the case) the front line Scouters providing program at the unit level to the youth. - One group feels we needs Scouts so that money can be raised - One group feels we need to raise money so there can be programs delivered to Scouts
  19. Do hope you are correct, but then I thought providing programs for boys was also an important part of the brand This will be entertaining, especially as they roll out the (soon to be shortlived) Girl only troops and the calendar works against some of them. In order to be "fair" and "inclusive" the 18th birthday will no doubt be on the table in order to work with and validate the prior underserved girls as the rush to the apparent real purpose of Scouts (Boy omitted by design) the Holy Grail of the Eagle Scout award (cue the trumpets)
  20. My son was on staff at council summer camp, they designated levels for leaders (yes Helicopter leaders) and parents in the camp - Simple over involved oversight: Helicopter - More involved, checking on scout, asking questions on their behalf: Blackhawk - Even more involved, direct involvement during classes, scout is two steps behind: Chinook - Highest level, it's all about their scout, involves Camp Director in any perceived slight: Sea Stallion You could almost hear their eyes roll when one of these leaders/parents would take up residence in a program area
  21. The Co-Ed question will become codified in policy in less than 3 years. In 2018 there will be Cubs with 3 options and 2019 there will be Girl Troops and Boy Troops. Then (put on your shocked face) there will be surveys and listening events and for the enhancement of the program ALL units will be co-ed. Perhaps this will be the line in the sand for some, those of us considered conditional. Also the Duty to God will be optional, can't offend anyone and the listening events showed that was not fully inclusive. No doubt there will be program changes on time requirements, camping, swimming, etc. to accommodate families. The requirements will likely become less unit focused and more "family" centered. Also the uniform will become much much more infrequent.
  22. That term came up as I discussed this, and my concerns, with our local SE. He said that if people chose to leave, or not donate, perhaps they were conditional scouters. I did not press that issue or comment. My position is that Scouting has changed (is changing) and it will be significant. Conditions have changed. Other parts of the conversation seemed to be that this is a good thing, we just need to listen and accept. Also delved into coed troops, Duty to God, changes to requirements and of course none of that is being considered, my counter to that was how can you say that with the 10/11 announcement? National wants to add numbers any way it can, if they could scrap uniforms because the surveys say those not in scouting would join, they would.
  23. Be reminded, this is NOT about serving girls, or other altruistic pursuits. This is purely about numbers and fee paying participants and ultimately money. BSA is down in numbers and thus money to National. Each scout paid in 2017 $24 in annual membership fees, that is jumping to $33 for 2018. Much of that is driven by liability insurance, but also the BSA endowment fund drying up. 10 years ago that fund was at $350MM. Now it is at $160MM. Much of that is result of lawsuits and legal issues. Untold in all of this is the money that BSA National has poured into the Summit operation in West Virginia, literally hundreds of millions of dollars, and that Nationally owned site continues to be a money pit. Also the vast money put into outreach programs for under served youth that are led by para professionals as no leaders can be found. Not saying this is a bad thing or a bad pursuit, but the cost of delivering that program is much higher than in traditional units. Lastly no doubt are pension liabilities and insurance. From the 2016 National Report - these two items (insurance and pensions) were up $21MM Year over Year. Additionally there are notes in the 2016 Annual report on credit lines of $55MM, and extending those. Also some forward looking optimistic statement by management believing that many factors (significant donations, program fees, etc) will help deal with the bonds coming due on Summit. Obviously the situation is more dire than is being portrayed, so the Hail Mary is adding girls. Where all the leaders etc will come from to staff these new troops is unclear. The ultimate end game for this round will of course be a fully co-ed program. Those that choose to leave will of course be "conditional scouters" who obviously were not fully dedicated to the Oath and the Law or the ideals of the Boy Scouts. Remember what they said in All the Presidents Man...Follow the money
  24. We engaged with our local council as we had questions, as the old Radio Shack slogan went, "you've got questions, we've got blank stares" was in full force. Some of the questions we had went to what is next. Uniforms, Duty to God, Outdoor, family camping for Scouts, and the first answer was "No, none of that is changing" and we asked "How do you know if you claim to not have known about this?" Best engagement went when they advised "I think we can all agree that Girls and leadership is important and BSA can do yada yada". Our input was that no we may not all agree on that. We feel that we can all agree the North Korean nuclear program is not great, not sure BSA is the one to handle that. Yes a bad analogy but connecting two non related items may not effectively make your point. Some discussion on that BSA was not like other World Scouting movements with regard to gender, our position was I am pretty sure there are a myriad of items we are not similar to with the World Scouting movement, did that mean we would be emulating those also? Then the point that girls were already participating so let's make it official. My response was so if enough units do something outside of policy, rather than address that the go forward plan is to change the policy to make everyone compliant? I asked why nothing beyond the press release and nothing on council web page, or any social media. If this was absolutely the best thing since sliced bread, why not own it and run with it. They said plans are still be drawn up and will be communicated. As has been noted, to say that National fumbled this change is being kind. They have zero idea how to engage in change management. If they truly believed the support was as deep and "unanimous" as reported then 10/11/2017 would be the best day ever for scouting in the USA. Pretty sure the single gender dens and single gender troops are really nothing but a straw man. The reality (from the BOY Scout perspective) to gin up a troop from scratch is daunting at best. We are a large troop, 100+ and do 14 or so outdoor events per year. Just moving away from the Church is a lesson in logistics. If the CO decides to do a Girl troop, even if we are separate, how long before the parents there are campaigning to roll it into one unit. After all, they are already trained, why don't those leader just welcome the new scouts. Then we will go from a community supporting troop to the bad guys. As they said in Red October - This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
  25. Agree - @John-in-KC thank you for posting the video. https://livestream.c...ideos/164161163 That is the most revealing thing I have seen. Listen to the justification, listen to the comment "if you don't want controversy, just say no...can we grow another way, I just don't know". Listen to the arrogance. This was a done deal, short on specifics and how it might work, but who cares. Basically CSE Michael Surbaugh is out of ideas. This is the Hail Mary (in his mind) to grow. Obviously his compensation is tied to growth. If we see a bump, he gets a bonus, and walks away. He sees this not as a program he is a steward of, but he sees this as his way to cash in. He is correct, 10/11/17 will be a date remembered for the end of Scouting as we know it.
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