Jameson76

Our troop uses these, about $30. EVERYTHING needs to fit in the trunk. They show up for camp with a trunk and a daypack for the trip to camp. Helps with packing and moving goods to site. Can be used in tents (camp has the 2 person platform tents), keeps things dry if they actually close it, can be a table a seat, etc.

So range activities seem to be back on as of Thursday late evening maybe. No additional training, no updates issued, just the local SE signing a document that their range follows all the known rules. No changes to the rules, just swearing they follow them. One would think that maybe now outside groups could not use the BSA facilities, but, there is money to be gained from that, soooo Basically corporate CYA, or as some in industry may call it "Safety Theatre".

Some new background on this, and apparently this is not 100% just related to shooting sports, though that is what is impacted right now. From what I understand this concept of the "Stand down" is a BSA National initiative. If there is an aquatics incident in some state at BSA camps / property, ALL aquatics in all camps will stand down for a few days. If there is a mountain bike incident, ALL mountain biking will stand down for a few days. Rinse, lather, repeat. No information of actual process for what additional training or actions will be taken in a stand down, how long a stand down will be, or what will trigger the lifting of a stand down. This is somehow related to new insurance policy and coming out of bankruptcy. As we can all see a good bit of confusion. As a side note for camps that have staff in camp school RIGHT NOW for training, they are basically out of luck. Just sitting around and talking, no range time or any or the actual nuts and bolts as the range is effectively closed.

That is an optimistic view. This seems to be the "Never let a crisis go unused" strategy for some to achieve a goal of ending shooting sports. BSA does nothing fast, the Memorial Day weekend will extend the decision timelines and there are large camps that start staff week on Sunday with week 1 for them starting 6/1/2025. There are staff hired to run the ranges, councils have invested in arrows, ammunition, clays, etc. In reality the timeline is maybe 5 to 7 days to "review".

Seems a bit of an over reaction. Maybe be specific to standing down non-scout groups. There is a constituency within and outside BSA that has been gunning (pun intended) to limit or close target activities for many years. Maybe this was their excuse

DE's are mainly responsible for fund raising. Keep the cash flowing, membership may be nice but not essential to the DE's performance. FOS, Camp Cards, Popcorn sells, etc. Little to no interaction or direction for units these days. In our council, more than 1/2 the paid staff is there for money raising. Second highest paid staffer in the council is "development" or money raising.

Agree. In the feeder pack for every 12 kids that join as Lions and Tigers (oh my!!) maybe 3 or 4 make it to AOL and potentially crossover. Then they have had 5 + years of Cubs so the expectation is Scouts will be like Cubs, which it isn't, so there is a high dropout rate. Also many assume Scouts is like Cubs so they never make it to AOL, tired of the repetitive cub program. Also families may assume Scouts is like cubs and expect the hand holding, social promotion, and family camping. Imbalance of expectations and reality

In many ways you are experiencing disinterest that may not be of your own making. Scouting has experienced a decline over the last 45 years. Slowly the passing down of Scouting from one generation to the next has grown smaller. Less parents were involved as kids so they do not migrate towards having their kids in Scouting. Basically a smaller population that thinks favorably of the program. Many have some esoteric view or opinion, but not actual experience. Additionally the overall Scouting program in the US has moved more towards the experience of Scouting and less on growing Scouts, easier to leave the program. In many cases units are seen as just more school. For Scouts (11-19) for summer of 2024 if you took all the camps, all the weeks, and all the availability, nationally the camps were at 30% capacity. A small handful were full, but most had lots of empty space. There may be youth registered, but not a high level of engagement. Long term I'm not sure of the fix. In many cases key will be to make the program relevant and work to be clear on what the program is about and what the positive outcomes can be. We too had 80 Scouts 9 years ago, not so much now and we are in the 20's. Also the expectations of families have changed. We camp 11 - 12 times a year, many kids and their families are not supportive of a robust outdoor program. Possibly meeting in the woods and kids running things scares parents. Also getting the parents engaged is tough. Have crews going on high adventure and could not find enough parents that would serve as leaders. Ended up recruiting a past leader who's son aged out 3 years ago and then an older brother who is 21 and an Eagle from our troop. 15 years ago we had wait lists for adults for the treks. As I noted, really not sure of the long term fix.

No more and no less, use the tools and requirements Sadly there are units that feel the need to put "their" spin on projects. Must have CAD drawings, Must build something, Must put in XX hours, Must have XX Scouts work on the project, Must, Must, Must. While the intentions may be good, as has been noted, these local add-ons do not adhere to G2A. How to politely navigate that deviation can be a challenge

This seems to be part of the overall trend where Scouting is less experiential learning, less growing through group dynamics, less boy led and more, well almost school work focus. Along with MBU and not really becoming "Scouts", this is wanted by parents, who do not want to actually be involved, they just have expectations. They are expecting the new scouts to stay within their peer groups, stay in their comfort zones, get socially promoted through the ranks and be led by the leaders through monitored and "safe" activities. That whole outdoor and weekend camping interferes with sports, is scary and challenging, and boys may get dirty and be uncomfortable. Also how will the parents keep an eye on them, I mean they aren't heading out to the woods as an ASM or leader. In many cases the new crossover families want a warm and embracing Webelos III experience. The challenge is many boys, after 5th grade, find this somewhat boring. The retention rates is very low for many units due to these expectations and families assuming the Scouts program (11 - 17 years olds) will be like Cubs. One of the reasons there is not overall growth in the program. On a macro scale the promise of fun and adventure in many (though not all) cases is not being delivered. Units are getting way smaller. Average size for units at our camp 8 years ago was +/- 24 youth in camp. Last year the average was less than 17 youth. The Scouts that are in units that camp, that challenge them, that get them out of their normal comfort zone, and let the youth run the program keep those Scouts. Those units lose most to aging out, not just having kids not showing up any more. Sadly there are less and less units that are run in this manner.

Massaging numbers can take a good bit of time, you can't just cook the books overnight. Has to be somewhat believable.

The complete lack of transparency by BSA (or DBA SA as part of BSA...it's somewhat confusing) on actual membership numbers is certainly neither Trustworthy or Helpful and is troubling. I would also suggest that the management team is not at all Thrifty with BSA resources. Obviously the numbers are low, or they have no good way to validate or generate membership numbers. Par for the course for an organization that judges success by money raised and not participants

They figure all of us that endured the ISP effort of the 70's have maybe forgotten. (We have not) Even as a youth we fully understood it was a fiasco. I got my Eagle (had to accelerate the process) under the "Old" requirements. On camp staff a few years later there were Old Eagles and New Eagles. Even though they camped and were actually on staff, there was still the pecking order. Scouts can easily read and understand requirements. They see that much of the advancement now is focused on classroom and less on experiential learning. Youth want action, not more school. Go and DO

That is it 100% in our council. Waaay less Scouts and units, waaaaay more staff. There are districts that 40 years ago were massive, they broke those into 3 or 4 districts, overall same geography but far less scouts and 3 times the number of DE's. The structure is like IBM of the 70's, layer upon layer. DE reports to a senior DE who reports to a Field Director who reports to a Are Director who reports to some sort of Council Operations person who I think reports to the Deputy SE who then reports to the SE sorry CEO. The poor rangers at camp have like 5 professional from various levels / areas giving direction. Raise money and hire more people to raise money

My council is a culture of cash is king. The professional motto is ABF - Always Be Fundraising. Everything the council puts out on any platform are the council sponsored events. If they are not able to monetize something (like promote a unit doing a cool outing or a unit providing good service) they do not care. Quite actually more than 1/2 of the paid employees in the council are "Development" or "Marketing" staff. Now you might think marketing is promoting the program, nope, it's about marketing fundraising. Any DE, when they are hired, the description of duties in the announcement first reads leading FOS, popcorn, and camp cards. Oh, maybe recruiting and unit growth, but that is waaaaaay down the list. My council operates with this question: "Do we raise money to have Scouting - OR - Do we have Scouting to be able to raise money?". They are 100% focused in the latter part of this question.

The CYA and concern over activities is (or can be) challenging. Group of us that staff at camp was asked to do something at an upcoming council camporee (think things that go boom). We do this for weekly campfires, use only items that can be legally purchased in our state, understand distances, how to safely do this, etc. Have done this at camp for many years and have done this as several council events. Never any issues and no even close calls. Early on our main guy that organizes this for the camp declined. The organizing group looked at options and due to costs came back to us, we said well sure (it's for the kids). Then we were on a zoom call and they started laying out we needed this, and that, wanted lists of what were using, who was doing it etc, we were texting amongst ourselves (5 or 6 of us) and our main guy sort of stopped the call, said we understood their position, we may not be who they need, have a nice day, and ended the call. They came back to us, we raised our budget and they basically begged us to do it, as we have gotten closer another "staff member" felt the need to exert wishes and input their control and so again we said well then we're out, and have a great day, good luck. They quickly came back and we advised maybe, don't need the staff member involved, and again we're a maybe. They did send payment, we are on the schedule for this to happen in the next few weeks and supposedly we are a go. Made it clear any pushback that day and we can just load back up and roll on home. Bottom line combining the CYA culture, the risk aversion culture, and the staff folks (who feel they are the ones that need to be in charge), it can take the fun and spontaneous nature out of stuff. The rules for cub campouts and what is "required" to be an acceptable camping facility are extensive. I've stayed at hotels with less amenities.

So would I be correct that comparing to the reported EOY 2024 numbers of 1,030,862 BSA (sorry SA 😔) is down 63,888 from that number or 6.19%?

Not a bad change, there are many competing priorities and some Scouts many only be able to attend say 1 night of some 2 night outings, yet can commit to camp each summer or high adventure trips. Agree and as a Camping MB I also used some discretion. We had a troop fold and had many of their Scouts join, 75% were older. Unfortunately they had not done as much weekend camping as our troop did, but, they did go to summer camps. Many were around Jrs in HS, so we had them camp as they could, and looked at summer camp as much as we could for those "extra" nights.

Our Troop stopped by Jimmy Carter's boyhood Farm in January of 2024. We toured and had a Scouts Own Service there. Also stopped briefly in Plains. Reminded the Troop of this on Sunday that they had been there and to keep up with the news on Jimmy Carter and Plains.

I wanted to highlight the subliminal messages. Our SE sent out the "Remember Scouting in the time of giving..." Give me strength. Every message we seem to get revolves around giving

I would posit that National would rather we have no camps and would be happy if Scouts do not go outside at all. That is where bad things may happen. My view is that National and the Councils want to focus on the Cubs that are easier to manage and have parents there to oversee. This whole Troops out and about without generating revenue to National and Councils is not the desired process Scouts is about raising money. Youth out doing things is secondary. Legacy things such as camps are not needed in the new world order.

We think there could be more success if: - It was clear councils appreciated and recognized these district level vounteers. Had recognition for district level volunteers raising more money $$ - councils invested in training and development of these district level volunteers. Had training for district level volunteers to raise more money $$ - council professionals placed a priority on recruiting district level volunteers. Placed a priority on district level volunteers raising more money $$ There - fixed that for you 😀

And there in lies the problem. Get out and do. Way to much focus on classroom merit badges, class instruction, checking boxes, adult leaders preventing experiential learning. How many times have we seen discussions on how to game the system so a Scout can get 20 nights camping? The goal should be to go out and do things, not just meet a metric. 20 nights should be simple to attain, and the Scout will learn volumes along the way. We were looking at what an AOL needs to do in order to earn arrow of light now, apparently camp with a BSA troop is no longer a thing, visit yes, but they can camp with their patrol. But, looking at the "Adventures" the first multiple pages is about safety considerations; food allergies anaphylaxis and epi-pens, behavior around campfires, etc etc etc. No doubt all good things, but this "safety moment" (and it's more than a moment) is front and center for every Adventure. Safety is important, but that cannot be our reason for being. To a parent new to the program, is this the right "Go to Market" thinking? Then they move into a BSA Troop, and "GASP!!!", the youth do stuff on their own!!. Scouts is OUTSIDE and doing stuff. The leadership training should be a less formal item and more something they experience and grow from. They will screw up, we as adult leaders can assist in making the course correction. The simplicity of the Troop program is that a 12 year old whom ignores advice and input and gets wet when their tent leaks or sleeps cold when they did not bring the recommended gear LEARNS A LESSON from THEIR actions. They hopefully realize they need to do better. Later, maybe as they go off to college or first job, they can recall that all advice is not bad. They can help themselves be better.

Make it a donation for goods, if BSA can do it with the grossly overpriced popcorn, then get some item of nominal value and then "sell" it for the donation. A dinner is always good, sell "stock" in the group that supports the Scouting program and have a stockholders dinner.

Taught Wilderness Survival back in the 70's at various summer camps. For those that recall those days we would make survival kits, the scouts would provide one of the metal band aid boxes. We would put in a few water proof matches, some fishing line and hooks, band aids, little mirror, etc. One item would in fact be a couple of dimes so if one was lost and made there way out to the real world, you could make a call. In the early 80's we changed that to putting quarters in to reflect Ma Bell's pricing updates. Good memories. Actually found one of those a few years back in a box of old camping stuff that had been moved countless times over the years. The quarter still seems to be legal tender.