Eagle94-A1

Unless things have changed in 4 years since I was involved with Cubs, BSA offered all kinds of resources for Den Leaders. In addition to training, there was a "Program Helps" which contained den lesson plans for each meeting. They were great for new leaders as they provided information for everything you needed. As you got more comfortable as a leader, you could use it for a basis for the meeting, then expand up on the literature. Those books were so popular that I had folks from other youth organizations buying them to get ideas for their meetings. As for people, that is what Roundtable is for.Experienced volunteers provide information and resources to conduct programs. I have not served as a RT commissioner in several years, but I still have folks contacting me for advice. Now One thing I will grant you is the lack of classroom training. While online training provides info, it lacks what a Trainer who has "been there, does that, have the t-shirt" can bring to training. When I was training chair and running courses, I was able to bring in knowledgeable folks who could relate to the new volunteers, give them ideas and help them during training, and give them a resource outside of RTs.

Regarding Pack Fees and Webelos 2s/AOLS, The pack I was did it two ways. The older two were not charged anything except national fee, which transfered over to the troop, Since they were leaving in December and January respectively. Youngest was charged a pack fee, but that was the cost of their AOL plaques in February. They got really, really nice ones.

No offense taken. Just wanted folks to know that volunteers were involved who actually talked to folks in the field. I was NOT (emphasis) part of the committee, but a friend was, and he got a lot, and I do mean A LOT (emphasis) of input. He was an involved Cub Scout leader for a while, but moved up to Scouts before being on the Cub Scout Committee. So he had knowledge, skills, and experience. He also knew enough that just because one council did it a certain way, doesn't mean that is the only way to do things. Glad to hear it about CASTAWAY. That was the highlight of my middle son's den in 5th grade. Preparing for, and doing that was what kept them motivated before crossing over in January. More than likely your council is using the process to make it a selling point. While it is complicated, troops do it all the time. Yeah, there was a lot of questions about it when the material started coming out in January 2015. A lot of folks thought AOL lost its meaning. Myself included. BUT I can count on no fingers how many 5th graders joined Cub Scouts. The challenge is that this is setting the Scouts up for major challenges when they become Scouts. Further it gives the parents false expectations regarding advancement, The biggest complaint I have heard from crossed over parents is about advancement, they still expected it to be handed to their Scout. Trust me I understand being a DL. I did it for 6 years with my hoodlums, and I was exhausted at the end of the 6th year. And this was from someone who has been a Scouter for over 30 years at the time.

From the Guide for Officers and Advisers. Adult membership qualifications. All members of, or candidates for membership in, the Orderof the Arrow who are 21 years of age or older and who are registered members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be considered adult members or candidates for adult membership. Individuals shall be selected as candidates based on the following: 1. Adult leaders in units: Each year, upon holding a unit election for youth candidates that results in at least one youth candidate being elected, the unit committee may nominate registered unit adults, 21 years of age or older, for membership in the OA to the lodge adult selection committee, composed of the lodge adviser, the chair of the council committee on which the lodge adviser serves, and the lodge staff adviser. The number of adults nominated can be no more than two-thirds of the number of youth candidates elected, rounded up where the number of youth candidates is not a multiple of three. In addition to the two-thirds limit, the unit committee may nominate the currently serving unit leader (but not assistant leaders), as long as he or she has served as unit leader for at least the previous 12 months. Recommendations of the adult selection committee, with the approval of the Scout executive, will be candidates for induction, provided these conditions are fulfilled: • Selection of the adult is based on the ability to perform the necessary functions to help the OA fulfill its purpose, and not for recognition of service, including current or prior achievement and positions. • The individual will be an asset to the OA because of demonstrated abilities that fulfill the purpose of the Order. • The camping requirements set forth for youth members are fulfilled. • The adult leader’s membership will provide a positive example for the growth and development of the youth members of the lodge. 2. Adult leaders in council and district positions: The lodge adviser, district chairs, council president or board chair, or members of the professional staff may nominate adults to the lodge adult selection committee. All requirements set forth for adult leaders in units must be fulfilled, with the exception of the camping requirements, which may be waived at the discretion of the lodge adviser and Scout executive. Recommendations of the adult selection committee, with the approval of the Scout executive, serving as Supreme Chief of the Fire, will become candidates for induction. Adults may be nominated for membership only one time per year as either unit Scouters or district/council Scouters, but not both. How they are nominated depends on where they maintain their primary registration. Because the Order of the Arrow is principally a youth organization, unit, district, and council Scouters are not selected for membership as a recognition. Selection should take place only when the adult’s position in Scouting will make OA membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. There is a third category for professionals, but since this is not the case, I won't post it.

Thank You @RememberSchiff. It is sad when I get information faster her and other social media than through my council.

The original version of the current program had a committee of volunteers working on it for over 2 year ( I thinkit was closer to 4)and getting input from other volunteers in the field. If you pack likes boating activities, or your Webelos/AOLs like the CASTAWAY ADVENTURE, you're welcome. I was the one that reminded a committee member that Cubs could only do boating activities at council event s at the time. And I talked up how my troop growing up used wilderness survival as a recruiting tool. As for the hoopla, prior to June 2015, you had to earn the Bobcat and Webelos Ranks in order to earn AOL, and symbolized your readiness for Scouts. They changed that because folks thought it discouraged 5th graders from joining. WHOA. Each adventure was designed to take a month, not a single meeting Giving away awards is not cool, especially at the Webelos and AOL levels. Webelos and AOLs are suppose to be transitioning to Scouts, getting prepared to do things, not just their best. Eight adventures pushes crossover from December-March time frame to February- May time frame. Research shows that the earlier the Cross Over, the better prepared the Scouts are for Summer Camp, which is crucial for retention. One thing that I am worried about, and is still missing is the transition from Cubs to Scouts. Research showed it takes 18-24 months to prepare folks. If you shorten it, which is what it is looking like, retention rates will drop. I know some packs already do not begin transition until 5th grade, and see those new Scouts dropping like flies because neither the Scouts, nor the parents, are ready for the differences between the two programs. The pre-June 2015 program only had 3 or 4 activity badges required for AOL so that as soon as it was earned, they could start work on AOL, which had 5 or 6 activity badges. Again the focus wa on preparing for transition. Sadly they will need to meet the new requirements.

This part really concerns me. I see very few packs in my council actually making 4th Grade the beginning of the transition. I blame current training on it because there is no longer an emphasis on beginning the transition in Webelos. The pack that begins transitioning in 4th grade has a better retention rate on Scouts than the one that waits until 5th grade in my area. The third pack does not begin transition until 5th grade, and does not Cross Over until August of their 6th grade year. While I honestly think that is too late, their troop's retention rate is higher than the one that waits until 5th grade, and Crosses Over in March. 6-8 months is not enough time for transition.

Here is the link to the info. https://www.scouting.org/program-updates/cub-scout-program-updates-announced/ The four areas of improvement are the Bobcat badge, Cub Scout Adventures, Webelos, and Cub Scout Awards. Bobcat will no longer be a badge that is earned once when a Cub Scout joins. It will become a required Adventure for each rank and earned each year. The requirements for the Bobcat Adventure are different for each grade to make them age-appropriate. Cub Scout Adventures have been improved to make it easier to deliver the program to multi-rank dens or as a Pack. To earn each rank in Cub Scouting will require a Cub Scout to earn the six required Adventures and two elective Adventures. Required Adventures reflect the aims and focus areas of the BSA. The number of elective Adventures increases. Webelos and Arrow of Light will be separated. Webelos becomes the 4th-grade program in Cub Scouting. Arrow of Light becomes a stand-alone badge of rank for 5th graders and will no longer be associated with. Arrow of Light will be the program that prepares Cub Scouts to join Scouts BSA. Cub Scouts Awards will be reimagined as Cub Scout Adventures. Topics like camping, STEM, and range and target sports will remain and are reimagined into elective Adventures that can be used towards earning a badge of rank. The changes will take effect officially on June 1, 2024.

My experience, and research done in the past points this out, Cubs who cross over no later than March tend to go to summer camp, which retains them longer. I grew up in the old 3 year Cub Scout Program, and when I crossed over to a troop, 1. My family could not afford the lump sum payment required to go to summer camp and 2. My mom did not know any of the Troop Scouters, and didn't feel comfortable letting me go even if they could afford it. And my parents weren't the only ones with these issues as the BSA's research in the late 1980s, early 1990s shows. This is why when BSA revamped the Webelos program into an 18-24 month program in the 1990s, they encouraged Cross Over NLT March. I was trained as a WDL in the late 1990s when it was a full day class that covered all the different positions. The emphasis on the Webelos Den Leader section was preparing the Webelos for that transition. If done, the Webelos 2s/AOLs are ready and chomping at the bit to Cross Over. My youngest felt restrained and resented a bit having to wait for his den to Cross Over. One thing that did help was putting the Webelos 1s in the senior Cub role model role. Not only did it help with them gaining confidence, it helped showed the parent what their Scouts are capable of. In my experience the parents have the hardest time transitioning.

As @MikeS72 points out "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old." So the earliest based on Grade is December (BSA's computer system uses June 1 as the start of a school year, regardless of when they actually finish 4th grade). If you go by year, it is theoretically possible to move them up by March of their 4th grade year, And since Webelos is no longer required for Arrow of Light, you can immediately start work on AOL as soon as they turn 10. We did the following based upon the old CS training I did back in the day. Sadly the current training doesn't really cover this like it should. 1. As soon as they move to 4th grade, begin treating them as a patrol. Let them elect a denner to help things. Start telling the parents to back away That is the hard part as they have the most difficult time. 1a. If you have a Den Chief, let the Cubs go to him, and let him supervise and plan things. That way you can show parents what Scouting is about, what Scout led can do, etc. HOWEVER YOU NEED A GOOD DEN CHIEF!!!!!! (major emphasis) I lucked out, I had phenomenal den chiefs, and even gave up one to the Webelos Den because the WDL quit, and the folks taking over were not campers. BUT My pack also had horrible DCs, one of whom was asked never to return. 2. Start having the Cubs run some of the meetings, and remind the parents to let their Cub shine. 3. If you have any district Webelos activities, do them. And if they are competitions, remind the parents that this is for the Scouts. I remember one event where the Webelos were supposed to build a catapult and launch tennis balls in a field. One den had engineers as DLs, and you could tell the engineers designed and built it, and not the Cubs. Long story short we changed catapult rules because of them. ( their catapult shot a tennis ball out over the field, some trees, a building, and into the lake). Again remind parent s to let the Cubs do the work. 4. Start visiting and camping with troops as 4th graders. I lucked out, my boys were Webelos in the brief period were Webelos could camp with troops at camporees. Some camporees even designed special Webelos only events for them, and allowed them to try their hand on different events, time permitting. BEST. RECRUITING. TOOL. EVER! (yeah I'm shouting now. :) Think it is mistake they reverted to the old policy..) But do joint activities. 5. If your day camp has the faculties and staff, they can create a Webelos Woods program, another way to keep them pumped up. 6. Visit and camp with more troops as 5th graders. One popular acticvity was CASTAWAY ACTIVITY BADGE. We had Scouts teach the skills to the Webelos, and had them camp with the troop during our wilderness survival weekend. 7. We aimed for a December-January Crossover. Youngest's den was a little behind and did a February cross over. But youngest essentially stopped attending meetings in December as he had everything needed for AOL. He started hanging with his brother's troop. Good luck.

One of the biggest concerns many parents have in my experience is camping. And now they cannot camp with Scouts, Sea Scouts, or Venturers as all adults MUST (emphasis)be registered. And even without the council add on fees, that can be prohibitive to some families. At least National listened to Cub Scout folks who stated that if the new rule applied to Cub Scout camping, it would destroy the program. I am glad family camping is still allowed without restrictions at the Cub level.

Thanks. I would bet a Dutch oven pizza that the cancellation of AOL and Crossover Ceremonies I a reason for the lack of interest in AIA.

I have been known to give people a second chance. But if my Scouts are saying something, I would listen. I have found that Scouts know more about what is going on with each other than adults do. If they are concerned. You should be too.

@mrjohns2Can you show me where that stat came from? Also Can you provide me the info from a NOAC for the 2018 NOAC? Also total attendance from 2018 and 2022 would be nice as well if possible I ask because 2018 was when National stated no more ceremonial regalia for AOL and Crossover Ceremonies, and mandated skits ceremonies that seemed more like commercials. This 2018 rule caused so much of a ruckus in my lodge that folks refused to do those ceremonies. I have stated that many folks get their interest in the OA from those ceremonies, and it would kill ceremonies over time. Thanks in advance.

One of the attorneys is on the record, specifically an NPR interview, stating he wants the BSA dissolved. One of the bankruptcy threads has a link to the 30 minute interview.

If the BSA's Powers That Be (PTB) didn't agree with this decision, I bet NOAC would have been held elsewhere, This decision was made years ago, and they came up with a plan to phase out AIA. Look at ceremony teams today. I know when the OA chapter came and picked up their gear and equipment out of storage I had, everything AIA related, except the drum, was left behind: ceremony regalia, dance regalia, regalia making supplies, etc. Stuff that took years to get the money to buy and make just left behind like it was garbage. I bet they took drum, despite having no singers, because they can sell it for a lot, even used.

I know folks who have not missed a NOAC since they were first became Arrowmen and are now skipping out on Colorado. I also know some lodges bring large contingents to compete in AIA events. I remembering one lodge had so many folks signing up that they did not have enough spaces. Almost all were competing in AIA events. I do believe attendance will be low.

@Cburkhardt, I do not know where you live and what socio-economic class your Scouts are in, but mine are in an extremely low economic class. If we were to charge full upfront costs and conduct no fundraising, we would not have a troop. 2/3 of the troop are on some type of financial aid for national and council fees as it is. EDITED I am hearing from the packs that the lack of prorating fees is hurting recruiting. It is too expensive to join. At least with the prorated fees, they could see if the child liked the program ( Scouting is not for everyone), and units had time to help out Scouts Yes, Scouting may be cheaper than some activities, and that is why Scouting is some families only activity: they cannot afford other activities. And around here, there are some activities that are cheaper than Scouting. Depends upon the council. Mine is expecting folks to also contribute to FOS. Problem is you got families that can barely afford Scouting as it is, they don't have any extra money to give. And some families cannot even afford the national and council fees. And to be honest, no volunteer in my area sees any value for what they are paying. Some are praying for the mergers to start so that we may get better service from professionals.

[Old man Voice] "In my day, when we were coming from {insert activity here}, we went into the bathroom and changed into our Scout uniform, AND WE LIKED IT!" (OLD MAN VOICE OVER) 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Seriously though, I remember several times coming in late and changing in the bathroom. Heck I went from a HS senior ring ceremony (semi-formal dress)with my date to an Eagle Court of Honor, changed into uniform, went to the ECOH, and as soon as the ceremony was over change back into coat and tie and go to ring dance. But the absolute best was my girlfriend's winter formal. Prior to going, I had to MC a Court of Honor. She shows up to that in her formal, and I had my tux on a hanger. As soon as the ceremony was done, changed and to the formal we went.😂😂😂😂

Glad someone is being successful. The packs I have talked to are having issues with recruiting. Lot of folks cannot afford the $140 fee that national and council is charging.

A few comments. 1. be prepared to leave as the COR can do anything they want. grant you they are doing too much and really should be a support role. 2.. While I am a fan of troop ceremonies, my troop growing up had a standardized ECOH script, they need to be flexible. MY father was out of the picture when I got Eagle, but my Godfather was a big support, and he got the dad pin. 3. If you go the ECOH on your own, be prepared to pay the financial cost, as well as the emotional cost. It will cause issues with the COR. 4. A cheap way to go for initiations is to create a photo invite and print locally, or using a certain national online vendor. One Eagle I know figured out that as a member of the online provider, it was cheaper for him to mail individual photos via them. But a lot of $0.27 charges on the credit card. 5. I do not know who gets the eagle credentials. If he gets them and tries to hold them up, you can get replacement credentials though the Scout Shop. You will need some info, i.e. full name on application, date of EBOR, etc to have it verifies and sent to you. I had to get a replacement packet. 6. While I do not like what this troop did, It may help in this situation. Troop used another person's credentials to buy an eagle kit in order to have all their eagles presented at their annual eagle COH. This troop does one per year, it is a MASSIVE deal, and while confirmation is in SCOUTBOOK, it does take time to get the credentials. More later.

When I was a youth many years ago, we had a troop fold and some of their Scouts joined our troop. We also got some gear out of them folding. Once I became an ASM, I found out the full story. CO was a civic organization, and the president and few board members were not favorable towards Scouting. They were also having some financial challenges. When their board found out that they owned equipment and money in the account, they decided they were not going to recharter the unit, sell the equipment, and use the money for themselves. One of the board members was pro scouting and got the word out. Before they folded, they prepaid all their members for another year's membership, summer camp, and a few had national jamboree paid for. They sold the equipment to the various units the Scouts were joining dirt cheap ( I seem to recall $1 either for all or per item) and essentially left them with about $100 in the account. IH was mad, but the treasurer, who was the pro-Scouting member, reminded them that even if they had everything, it was supposed to be saved for restarting the troop, and they were not suppose to sell the equipment or use the funds for themselves.

We are in a similar boat. We have no Cub Scout pack affiliated with us, and our council has refused to help when we asked for it.. Recruiting is strictly word of mouth, and usually entails folks transferring from other troops. However we now have 2 with no previous Scouting experience. We are pushing recruiting, both Scouts and parents. With the exception of me, none of the active, registered adults have Scouts anymore. And my youngest is looking to drop next year.

I admit, I see the necessity of having a SMALL (major emphasis) professional corps. UK is quite successful with a small cadre of pros. But BSA's overbloated bureaucracy is wasteful IMHO. Even councils can be wasteful. One council I know of has 3 individuals working one district, yet the other two have vacancies, and even when one was filled, the pro was not visible.

@Cburkhardt, You may not realize it, but there are ways for SEs, and to a lesser extent DEs, to manipulate who is, and is not, on a district committee, council executive committee, or council executive board. When I was a DE, my SE and DFS had an in-council training session on how to get the folks we want onto those committees. They essentially said we should get folks who will shut up and do what we tell them to do without question. One of the reasons why I was in trouble with them is because I refused to replace some "critics" with "yes men." I wanted the best folks for the job to be on my district committee, and didn't mind having folks coming up with alternatives, especially since these alternatives 95% of the time had better results than what I was being told to do. They couldn't fire me because I was meeting my goals, and they had no excuse todo so. But they could make my life miserable, which is what they did. The way Pros control who is on the committees and boards is via the nominations committee. They get folks who are yes men on those committees to select other yes men for the various positions.