Eagle94-A1

1. WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and yes i am shouting at ya ) 2 Why the focus on advancement, will this be something done during classes? 3. DO SOMETHING FUN THAT THE SCOUTS WILL ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (this time MAJOR emphasis) Summer camp is suppose to be fun, not school. Sadly too many camps are turning it into school. Do something fun and memorable that the Scouts will enjoy and want to come back for more. Do not worry about advancement. 4. Good luck. EDIT: I am an old school Scouter, in that I think the goal should be fun, not advancement. Sadly too many folks focus on advancement, including my Troop CC and Scouts. When I was a Cub Scout Day Camp PD, while most activities had some advancement element to is, not all of them. Kids had so much fun, that we doubled out numbers my second year. The year I stepped down, the camp focused on advancement again, and it was not fun for the Cubs. I came back as PD. During COVID, my troop did their own summer camp. While we did some advancement, the focus was on fun.Every one said it was the best summer camp ever, but the problem with it they said was only 2 MBs were able to be earned.

I had a friend accused of CSA and was placed in the IVF. However I cannot find her file among the ones released by a law firm a while back. I can verify that one had police intervention, and she was not prosecuted because evidence supported her , not the accuser.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (yes I am shouting my appreciation at you.) This topic really gets to me, and I want as much information as possible. I was fortunate, I was not a victim. However I could have been. My CM was later arrested for CSA. Something didn't seem right with him, and when he moved up to the troop with his son, he became SM, and I was not comfortable and switched. I found out several years later he was in jail. I also had to report/help incidents twice.

Serious question, can you show me the source where you got that? I ask because the research I've done showed that the first mandatory reporter laws were for physicians only, and started in late 1960s. CA was the first state to enact these laws, and gradually they expanded who was a mandatory reporter, and the idea spread to other states. The next group was nurses, then other healthcare providers. Teachers started to be come mandatory reports in the late 1970s/early 1980s (again CA started it if memory serves) and that too expanded to other states over time. Youth group volunteers started in the late 1980s, and some states didn't make youth group volunteers mandatory reporters, with libel and slander protections if the accusation was false, until the late 1990s/early 2000s.

When I did research on this topic a long time ago, the rationale for reporting to the SE, and not directly to authorities, was that different jurisdictions had different definitions of mandatory reporters. Unless you caught them in the act, if you reported an incident, and it was false, you would be held liable and face possible civil litigation. Different states have different laws, and laws change over time. If you read some of the files, there are notations that victim's parents did not want their child to relive the horror in court. So there was no prosecution. As for defamation, and proof, if the victims are unwilling to testify, it makes things difficult to prosecute. Also there are times when allegations have been proven false. I know of one such case in BSA. Duke Lacrosse team also comes to mind. And it wasn't until the mid-late 1990s, that youth volunteers got mandatory reporter protections if memory serves.

And there a families that do not do sports for just that reason as well. As for putting it on plastic, again you have families that if it is a choice between $150 worth of food, or paying for a program your child may not be interested in after 1-2 months, food wins. One reason I liked prorated fees, it gave families time to get money together. And sometimes packs could help out, but that was when the fees were sub $35. $150 is a lot for some units. But not every one. Some councils are not breaking even, and others barely. As for savings plans, that helps long term, but not the immediate registration question of coming up with all the fees, sometimes over $150. Best example I comes from when I was a Scout. I crossed over in May, and was told to If I wanted to go to summer camp in 6 weeks, I needed to come up with $75 (about $214 today) get as physical, etc. And there was no way my family could come up with that fee. But I agree budgeting is the way to go. I did just that, plus fundraising, to be able to go on trips. Once a campership was also given. But again budgeting is not the problem it is the high initial cost.

Sorry you are wrong. Cost is indeed a major factor in membership loss, especially since national no longer prorates fees to the unit recharter time. The prorated fees allowed folks to try out the program for a 1-4 month period to see if you liked the program and would remain. Asking for $105 national registration and joining fee, PLUS whatever additional fees your council added PLUS unit fees, scares off families real fast. Some council that is over $150. And that doesn't cover uniforms and activities. THEN poor program, and lack of leaders takes effect. I do agree that poor recruitment, specifically the inability to conduct round ups, and poor community relationships, i.e. the professionals have no clue who the superintendent is and other community leaders who could get you in the schools, is a problem.

Yes she knew what happened to them. Some got lost in moving HQ locations. The bulk thrown away when the storage unit they were in had water damage. I knew about the lost records as it happened before my time. The water damaged ones happened while I was gone. My council is now using records laws to keep stuff the legally required time. Then it is destroyed. I am told a lot of councils have been doing this

One SE told us how to manipulate the nominating process to get the folks who are "friendly" to council on committees and boards. So I wouldn't be suprised. That happened in my council. Local camp was sold. They said the reason was that it was costing almost $70/ camper to maintain. When volunteers looked at the raw data, they noticed the data was manipulated to show a loss. They included capital expenses, and forgot to note the camp was closed for 7 months as a result. taking out the capital expense made it $11/ Camper. But it would have been less because of the 7 months of weekend camp outs, district and council events, etc not taking place. They also conveniently forgot to include the previous 3 years data, which showed the camp was actually a money maker supporting the primary camp. However the amount it raised did not compare to the amount they sold it for.

Here's the deal, and I am not trying to be a negative Nelly here. As a former pro, I know what the job entails, and appreciate the good DEs. What do I mean by good DEs, I mean, and in no particular order. 1. They listen to volunteers. 2. They are more focused on The Movement in general, than FOS. 3. They appreciate the volunteers. 4. They are courteous towards the volunteers. I give every new Pro the benefit of the doubt when they come aboard. I have even talked to them about situations and challenges they will be facing when they work with volunteers. For the past 10+ years, it seems to go in one ear and out the other. Kind of hard to appreciate and respect the pros when they do not appreciate and respect the volunteers.

Back in the day when it was under $30K, buddy of mine calculated how much we averaged an hour, and that is not considering summer camp. It was under $3/hour. As for vacation, what's that? Seriously for the 16 months, I had 1 day off, besides holidays. And I only got that day off because when I showed up to summer camp, there were too many staffers. So those of us not needed were sent home AFTER we showed up on Sunday. It would have been nice if they told us Friday afternoon, or even Saturday morning before we left. Since I had no plans for Monday, and the girlfriend was off on Mondays, we went to the beach and had a great time.

It wasn't just DEs that were insulting, but also FDs, DFSs, and one SE. And what really ticked me off about the SE was that the only reason the event he did this at was a success was the hard work and dedication of one volunteer, who also contributed his treasure knowing Council would not reimburse him, that he ignored. While I have seen a few Pros that care, most of them lately seem to be recent college grads and want a job. At least in my neck of the woods. As for treating volunteers with respect and thanking them, that is a must. When I was a DE, there were times that the volunteers disagreed with what I was doing. Heck there were times that I agreed with them, but was being forced to do what was being done. But because I treated them with respect, explained why things were happening, and thanked them for the work, like yours, mine would move mountains to help me. But more importantly, if you show that you care about the Scouts, and wanting them to have a good experience, the volunteers will respect you. I knew a brand new DE who showed up to his first district event, a Pinewood Derby. Now this DE hated PWDs, because he had a very negative experience with them as a Cub. There was a single mom and her Cub who showed up way to late for him to compete. There were issues with the car, so mom left and spent time and money getting them fixed. But by the time they got back, the district was about to do the final race to determine the overall champ. Only thing left after that was the Leaders' Division. Scout was visibly upset he would not be allowed to race, and mom was too. The DE stepped in, said he didn't have a car to race in the Leaders' Division, and could he borrow the Cubs, When the Cub said yes and was handing it to him, the DE said to go ahead and get it inspected for him. Then when the adults started bringing their cars to the track, the DE asked the Cub bring it for him. The DE knew how it felt to be in that Cub's place, and didn't want the Cub to have a bad experience. Word got around that the DE was in it for the Scouts. While there was some disagreements with folks, sometimes even heated one, there was still respect between everyone. So I guess I want Pros who are in it to improve Scouts' lives, and not just collect a paycheck.

CANNOT. EMPHASIZE. THIS. ENOUGH! (Caps, bold, etc for major emphasis). I t is sad when you ask for help, and the professionals won't help you. Concur, although the last one will be the hardest. Sadly most pros are clueless on programs, and the National literature on Patrol Method has been seriously watered down. My additions. -Respect for volunteers. Volunteers are what make the program happen at all levels: units, district, council, section, and national. I have seen DEs ignore, insult, yell at, and curse out volunteers. I've commented on my treatment by pros on other posts. I have had friends resign from district positions, including district chair and commissioner, over their treatment. One new DE with no prior Scouting experience and only 6 months as a pro, attempted to publicly humiliate one long time Scouter at a district meeting. She got so angry she responded, " I've forgotten more about Scouting than you've ever learned, and I still know more than you!" -Focus on program, not money. Yes money is important. But need a program that is worth investing in. At least in my council of late, there is no worthy council programs. The local summer camp is being negatively talked about on social media because of issues last year. And to be honest they have had issues for a very long time. Very few people, usually the military folks who are moving into the council from another, are willing to spend the time and treasure to run programs. When I ran district activities, I was put in charge at the last minute, ignored when it came scheduling a third event at the location at the last minute, did not have my supplies ordered or in insufficient quantities (you always over estimate you patches!) If you build a program, they will come. If you have a good program, people will support it. More later.

It was commonplace in a lot of councils. I heard stories from other pros about folks going to graveyards and using phone books to get names. I know one district had 1/3 of the members and units that were fake. The DE tried his best to clean up the mess, and the SE and DFS were ticked off and forced the DE out of the profession. While I agree it is insane to keep paper units and Scouts, there are some pros who would do anything to get the numbers so they can meet goals and get raises. Same DE was at a staff conference, and thought his SE was telling folks how to spot fake units to fix the problem. His peers told him to think about it, they were just told how to fake membership without getting caught right. While theoretically CORs and the executive board have some power, there are ways to limit it. If CORs are not informed of the meetings until the last minute or after the fact, how can they go? Also you do know about the CORs in Chicago a few years back? And the same SE and DFS above told DEs how to manipulate the nominating committee in order to get folks who would be friendly towards the council. They wanted the DE to remove 3/4s of his district committee because they questioned council. And I can go on. If your 50+ years were not like my 40+years, I am jealous.

Once upon a time, DEs were trained in program. Before my time, it was held at Schiff Scout reservation. When I was a DE, we had 3 months to complete Scoutmaster Fundamentals, Exploring Basic Leader Training, and Cub Scout Basic Leader Training in order to go to PDL-1. Also there was a 1 day mock "campout" where we went ot a camp and did some stuff there. Planning events was also part of the process. But when I talked to a DE about training, it is mostly online now, I have no idea what it covered, but I know it is inadequate.

Regarding why districts are failing, in some cases you got longtime volunteers who have been ignored and abused by pros, and they are fed up with it. They are told they will be treated differently by the new pros, but it is the same old, same old.

While the Cubs may be gone, You have a few, and I stress a FEW, who still treat the Webelos/AOL program like it was originally intended to be: a transition program from Cubs to Scouts. Usually those Cub Scout Leaders are long time Cub Scout leader who were Cub Scout basic Leader trained, or newer leaders who have either trained under, or been mentored by, older Leaders who have been around a while. IMHO, the training for WDLs is the problem as I got rid of that information.

Sadly I know several councils where numbers were fudged. Heck one SE and DFS had a reputation for doing this, and using the DEs as scapegoats to get out of trouble. It was so well known that I was warned to watch my back with them by a SE I knew. As @Ojomanstated, if you want to kill your career in Scouting, be a whistleblower. I have met pros, really good ones IMHO, that found some shady stuff, reported, and were penalized.

If you look at how the pre-2015 structure was created, as well as the older pre- CS Position Specific Training syllabus circa 2007 and older, Webelos was created and expanded to an 18-24 month program with the purpose of preparing them for Scouts. Parents no longer signed off on advancement, guest experts in different Activity Badges were recommended to come in a teach a few meetings to simulate MBCs, utilizing the Patrol Method with a Denner with duties, wearing the Patrol medallion instead of den number etc. When they went from CS Basic Leader training, a day long class covering all positions, to each position having their own training, I thought it was a mistake becasue people think they are "Trained" in one POR, think they know what to do in another. WDL is a completely different creature than a CSDL. And online training has made it worse IMHO. And we are Seeing new Scouts who are confused and uncomfortable with the differences between CS Scouts. Worse off are the parents.

That is IF, and I stress IF, they kept the records and/or the records have not been lost or damaged. For my troop's 100th anniversary, we wanted names of all SMs. We had most of them, but not all of them. My council did not have the records.

Me neither. Our area is as rural one, with a high poverty rate. Median income is barely over poverty levels. If I had to pay for all three hoodlums, and myself, I could not afford the program, and I drank the council Flavor-aid when they were Cubs. Over $500 on national and council fees alone, then add $180 for pack fees. And I am not including uniforms. The new fees will definitely shrink the program. I am not big into Sea Scouts as I used to be, but up until a few years back, national only supplied patches, not uniform shirts and pants. Why someone said Sea Scouts wore "Piratical Costumes." Most ships purchased from SHIPS STORES in CA instead of National because A. National only kept a limited number of items, and B. Better quality. In fact the last time I purchased items form National, and they were on sale at the time, all of the labels had "Sea Explorer' (item name)" on it, and this was over 10-15 years after Sea Explorers became Sea Scouts again.

We have not had a feeder pack in about 12 years. Our Scouts recruited by word of mouth, and until recently most Scouts transferred from other troops in the area. We went from48+ back then, to 7 currently on the charter, and one of those ages out this year. We will not be folding this year, but it may happen next year. Because we have not been able to recruit in the schools, we are down to 2 packs in my county. 26 years ago when I first moved here, 10 active packs in the county. We had 11 active troops in the county, with 24-48 scouts each. we are down to 7 troops, with 6-24 scouts each. There were over 750 Cub Scouts, Scouts, and Explorers/Venturers in the county back in the day. Today there are under 400 Cub Scouts, Scouts, Explorers, and Venturers in the 7 counties that comprise my current district. It is depressing.

Going back to the 1980s and earlier. On a different note, from everything I am hearing, packs are already doing this essentially. Watch retention at the Scout level continue to drop.

In the pre-2015 program, as soon as a Webelos den completed the Webelos Rank, they began work on the AOL. The entire reason why BSA went from a 9-12 month Webelos program in the 1980s and earlier to the 18-24 month program was because studies showed it took the Webelos, and their parents, that look understand the differences between Cubs Scouts and Boy Scouts. I am friends with one of the 411 committee members that came up with the current program design. I asked can we still start working on AOL as soon as they completed Webelos, and was told yes, they shorted the number of required activity badges for the few that joined in 5th grade. But the goal was to cross over no later than March, so that they would be prepared for summer camp. When I did training on the 2015 program, I told the pack in attendance just that. Those packs that do start the transition from Cubs to Scouts in 4th Grade have better prepared new Scouts who remain in Scouting longer. Best example I can give is the Webelos 2/AOL Den that began the transition in 4th grade, and in December of 5th grade, just before Cross Over on January 2nd, did their last activity badge, CASTAWAY. The den had their individual shelters built and started cooking lunch before the Scouts completed their shelters. Heck one Cub had his shelter completed, and lunch cooked before the DL had his shelter completed. So if done like above, it should be no problem to complete AOL in 6 months of 5th grade. BUT, I know that people have said the new program was never intended to work like above, and that the person who told me it could, one of the committee that created the program. was wrong. And sadly7 whomever wrote the current WDL/AOLDL training did not know why Webelos went from 9-12 months to 18-24 months. With the new program, I see a lot of folks pencil whipping Cub Scout advancement, and a lot of new Scouts, and their parents, getting culture shock when the Cross Over.

If you read the older literature, I would say pre-2008 but I do not remember exactly when it went from Cub Scout Basic Leader Training to Cub Scout Specific Training, parents are not "do most of the work anyway." Rather they are suppose to start backing off, starting in 4th grade, and let the Cubs do more and more. It was recommended that Parents do not even sign off on advancement. Sadly I am seeing this more and more. Only packs with WDLs with the older training are doing it they way I was trained. Forgot to add, they have better retention in Scouts. I had a similar experience to the one you described in the early 1980s. Only difference was Cub Scouts was 3 eyars as Tigers did nto come out until 1982.