Eagle94-A1

Some folks had signed up with an organization that you agree with, and over time the organization changes their ideas in an attempt to attract new members..

When I was a Scout, there was a unit that folded because a CO's IH no longer wanted a troop, and they wanted the troop's money, and equipment to sell at their yard sale. One of the members opposing the decision, and was an ASM or MC with my troop. Prior to folding, the money in the account was used to pay registration, BOYS' LIFE, summer camp, and in a few instances Philmont or NSJ. Equipment got sold to those units taking their Scouts very cheap ( I think we paid about $5 for 5 tents). The troop left about $100 in the account to give to the CO. So I understand the jadedness. In this circumstance, no one has issue with the CO doing that. With the exception of the recent de facto temporary pastor, the relationship has been extremely good. They have provided us with many resources over the troop's long history. They have paid for many things for us to use, and in the past have helped Scouts out financially.

We were fortunate for a long time. CO was involved with us, but it helped that the pastor is an Eagle and his son was in the troop. However when he left, the de facto interim pastor was not a fan of Boy Scouts. Things we had been able to do for decades were no longer allowed. When one of my sons had their Eagle Court of Honor, which was planned over 3 months in advance per her instructions, at the last minute she asked if we could postpone or move it because the church wanted to use the reserved room. When I suggested using a smaller room at the church that would accommodate us, she got very defensive. She went on and on about how we had to clean up after ourselves, not make in messes in the kitchen, etc etc. And when the pack that was folding went to her to see if they could move there and restart the church's pack, her attitude and demeanor threw the leadership off and they wnet elsewhere. With the new pastor, things have gotten back to normal. So with the 100+ year history with the CO, we would not have a problem with them keeping the money. However, with everything the council has done, and not done, we don't want them to get a dime more than what they are charging. Finding a new unit in our area is the challenge. Officially the last new unit is 2-3 years old, but in reality it resulted from the folding of one pack and moving to a new CO. Otherwise the last new troop was the girls troop founded in 2019. Even before their creation, units were dying. Our problems started before COVID.

Alright, I have read in multiple places that while the CO owns the gear, the unit's money goes to council. Does anyone have documentation on that? Plan with the funds we currently have is to pay for registrations and at least 50% of their summer camp for our guys . But we want to leave some money in the account for if the troop gets restarted, they have seed money. However if council is going to get the money, we will spend it all. Pay as much as possible for summer camp, have an awesome day trip, have a blow out Christmas party, etc. EDITED: I found the relevant documentation. Since we do not know how long it will take to restart the troop, if it ever gets restarted, I will suggest going with the worse case presented: completed dissolution with no intention of restarting. That way money can go for the purpose it was intended, providing opportunities for the Scouts, and equipment can be distributed, or completely disposed of ( we have a lot of old donated gear that we have not even looked at because newer is available).

Anecdotal, so take it for what it is worth. I transferred to an out of town troop after 6 months and stayed there until I left the region for a job. I have 3 Scouts transfer into my troop with 30 minute drives. We also had 2 scouts in the past live in their area making the trip. I had one Scout rejoin my troop. He had a 20 minute drive, and stayed with the troop until they folded. We had 2 troops and a pack switch COs from intown to out of town, basically 20 minutes away. Those units are thriving. In my experience, it is not the time spent travelling, it is whether or not the troop is meeting the wants and needs of the Scouts.

1. Welcome. I know there are good professionals out there, when I was a young Scouter, I worked for some who led me to become one when I got out of college. And being on here is a sign you may have been a good one IMHO. 2. Professionals. Treatment of volunteers by pros in the past, i.e. being ignored, overruled, lied to, yelled at, cursed out at, or being placed int he IVF for questioning council finances/insurance, has made many folks not want to volunteer at the district or council levels. So not many volunteers are around. I do not have issues with volunteers, as few as there are now, because I was heavily involved on the district and council levels prior to joining my current troop, and focusing on its survival for the past 7 years. I know the limitations and issues they face, especially in this council. I know all about the 5 P's, and backdating. Requests for help have been made multiple times in timely manners. The only "rush" times is when we get new DEs, and we talk to them about the needs when they first come aboard. And yes we know it is sometimes to late in that situation. But the same issue over and over? I know fundraising is important, but when the council has an abusive reputation because they curse out their district chair, who happens to be a local chamber officer, word gets around and donations flounder. When volunteers see you focused on one aspect of your job, Money, ignoring the Membership part, and abusing your Manpower as stated above, further donations flounder. COR is aware of the situation and understands. The troop was close to folding last year when 3 Scouts were not planning to re-register due to costs or losing friends. Local insurance benefit, and a Scout transferring into the troop saved the troop. And when my family joined the troop they were on the verge of folding for the same reasons. The troop is one of the oldest in the council, actually predating it. There is a lot of history in the Scout room There have been challenges in the past, I just hope this is one of them. But my loyalty is to my Scouts. I need to think what is best for them. And joining a larger troop that has resources and a feeder pack is in their best interest.

One reason why there are more troops is that it is not as dependent on adults like Cubs. In all my years as both a volunteer and professional, being a CS DL was the hardest. Another reason is CS used to be 5 years, and now 6. Scouts is 7-8 depending when they join..

Tough night last night. The decision to fold the troop was made last night. We been trying to recruit on our own because council is not helping, despite repeated requests. With only 4 Scouts, three of whom are in band, and one is just staying in until they get Eagle and really has no interest in camping but has no choice as he still needs Camping MB, it is now impossible to have an active outdoor program. Both the de facto CC and I realized this last nite when we tried to organize dates for November, December, and January. October was already out of play. We have not told anyone yet. I do not want to fold the troop just yet, as there are some 'housekeeping" things I want done. Finding troops for them is first and foremost, but will be challenging. All four have burnt bridges with at least one troop in the area. And another troop is in the same situation we are in: no Cub Scout feeder pack. They got an infusion of 2-3 Scouts when another troop folded this year, but otherwise are in the boat with no prospects for new Scouts after this year. Even if we merge with them, that only delays the inevitable. Also we are going to pay registration fees, but summer camp may be more challenging. We want to leave enough money with the CO to restart the church at a later date, if possible. And summer camp prices are skyrocketing. Sorry for the rambling, but it has been tough for me to get e grip on this decision.

No. The entire purpose of those requirements to to better prepare the Cub, and more importantly IMHO the parents, about the differences between Cubs and Scouts. I have seen first hand multiple times what happens when Cub "earn" AOL without actually doing those parts of the AOL requirements; They quit. Worst was the one den that didn't do any of the meetings or outdoor activity/camping, yet all members got AOL and "Crossed Over" to the troop. Troop gave them the custom neckers, slides, handbook, and never saw them again after the Cross Over ceremony.

the pre 2024 requirement was a hold over from LDS period. LDS packs could not camp at all, so Webelos1 and 2s could not camp at all. And 11 year old Scouts could only camp 4 times a year, and not attend summer camp.

Not always. I have seen Scouters go through all the training, yet still want to do things their way because 'Scouting needs to change with the times." Others just go through the motions, and then focus on their child. When you try to explain things, and mentor them, you are accused of "mansplaining," "being a misogynist," or "you don't know my son."

Not necessarily. I gotta be in the bottom 3 due to size. I could be wrong though. We are running the program as it should be run. Biggest challenge is no feeder pack, and have not had one for approximately 12 years. We got most of our scouts from existing ones who were dissatisfied with their troops. A few others who were never in Cubs, but had friends having fun with the troop was the other source. As the council stopped recruiting, packs have dwindled and died. Troops take a little longer since it is a 7 year program, and not a 4.5, now 5.5 year, program like Cubs. The Strongest troop does things their own way, and are successful because they are extremely protective of their pack. Leadership is shared, and they get fussy if other Scouts even talk to theirs.

With national increasing prices, and councils adding their own fees, Scouting is slowing becoming cost prohibitive for most families. And do not tell me to sell Popcorn. We have only 1 unit in my area selling it, and they are struggling. Only reason they are doing it is to have council waive their per Scout unit charge. And I have a feeling council will backslide on that.

CST 15 posted the following In August 2025, there were 51,888 Scouts in CST-15, compared to 53,544 in August 2024, reflecting a decrease of 3.09 percent. National youth membership stood at 814,950 at the end of August 2025, down 6.35 percent from 870,177 in August 2024. Results per CST-15 councils are shown in this table. Over the past 12 months, the number of units in CST-15 decreased from 2,593 to 2519, a loss of -2.85%. Nationally, units decreased from 39, 511 to 38,582, a loss of -2.35%.

$170 membership fee?!?!?!?!?! Only 1 of my Scouts could afford that.

i do not remember seeing this when I took Aquatics Supervision Swimming. It was an intense course.

While the Scouters in my district were skeptical of me being their DE, I was #3 in a 3 or 4 year period, only had one long time Scouter try to intimidate me. I didn't know who he was, but he made some comments about me "sleeping in a mudpuddle" at an OA Ordeal. Since he was spotless, I replied with my home lodge's old mantra, " a clean Arrowman is a lazy Arrowman," and walked off to join my chapter.

Biggest drawback is time prep. We did our own summer camp during COVID, and although I was an essential worker and had to go in to work, I had a lot more time to create a program. I do not think I could do the same thing now. Plus most of the adults are now focused on advancement and MBs, and not adventure. And this attitude has gone down to the Scouts. I have 2 scouts whose last summer camp will be 2026. One of them's attitude is the same as their parent's: they have all the MBS they need for Eagle and do not need to go to summer camp. The previous SM and I had to talk about HA activities at various camps. neither the Scout nor their parent realized they could do those activities. Funny thing is the ones who went to COVID CAMP said it was the best summer camp ever, but would not want to do it again. When asked why, they said no MBs. Even though every activity was part of a MB, and several MBs were started. Absolutely correct. Especially when camps are up for sale. Understatement. Same thing has happened in my council. Now some districts have less than 30% of the district positions staffed. It is not stupidity or ego, rather it is their superiors pressuring them to get agreeable, or as one SE called them "Pro-Council" committee members instead of the best possible choices. At least when I went thru the DE training, they taught us the right way, and would not talk about how folks are being told to do it. So the problem is known.

20 year olds cannot serve in the district role per National. And as a 21-24 year old district committee member, I can tell you from first hand experience some Scouters viewed me as "just a kid, " 'you do not know anything because..." no knots, no beds, no SM patch, ad nauseam. No, we are not complaining about lack of support from district committee members, we are complaining about the treatment by pros, which causes folks to not want to be involved at the district level at all. In my district's situation, the large majority of positions are vacant because no one wants to deal with the issues mentioned above. On thing I forgot earlier Pros need to be TRUSTWORTHY, and. not lie abut why things are being done, or not being done. Best example I can give is the council being told one reason things are being done, and the unit and district volunteers a different reason why things are being done. Do you want how it is supposed to be done, how the Pros want it done, or how it is done in reality, at least in my experience with multiple councils? The nominating committee is suppose to look at who is the best person for the job recruit them, and have the district committee vote EN BANC (emphasis) as a slate of officers. There are no choices for each position, and committee member selection can be rigged. The Pros want a nominating committee who will put people in positions so that they will do exactly what the Pros want them to do with no questioning. When I was a DE, my SE told me point blank to only select folks who can follow directions, and not necessarily the best person for each job. In reality it is whomever is willing to do the work gets the job, regardless if they are capable or not.

How many CORs are actually active on the district and council level? In my long experience, I only know of two. One was a former SM. The other was already active on the district level, and elected District Chairman when he was "appointed to be the COR. The members-at-large are usually the ones doing the actual work. 1. Pros should not ignore the unit Scouters when they need help. Listen to them as they are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program to recruit members. They know what works and what doesn't. While some have been Scouters a short time, others have years, even decades, of experience. 2. Pros need listen to your district level Scouters as they tend to have a lot more knowledge, skills, and experience than the pros do, especially in the service area. While Pros can stay 3-5 years in an assignment, in my neck of the wood the average 9 months. One DE left in under 30 days. 3. Do not second guess, over rule, etc the volunteers when they are assigned something to do. Best example is volunteer who was "voluntold" he was running a district camporee with 7 weeks notice because the camporee chief quit (see 4 below). Pro didn't interfere that year and it was a successful camporee. Volunteer agreed to do the following year. The Pros interfered so much it caused major headaches for the volunteer, and the event to go overbudget. Supplies were not ordered, so those supplies had to purchased locally at a higher cost. Camp got triple booked over the objections of the two folks running ITOLS and the camporee. This caused the campwide compass course to be redone hours before opening, and additional supplies not budgeted to deal with the anticipated parking issues and to designate the Cub area from the Scout areas. And I can go on and on about the interference. That volunteer promised to never run another district event ever again. 4. Pros need to remember "a Scout is Courteous." They should not yell, berate, and curse out volunteers. Especially ones who are also business leaders in the community. Not only will folks willing to volunteer dry up, but also FOS dollars will as well. Some long time businesses donors heard about these things, and stopped giving. More later

As a former pro, I can tell you even with professionals leading every troop, the quality will vary. Yes it is a red flag, one that says the council is not supporting the units, at least in my experience with 2 different councils. Districts and councils are there to support the unit, not the other way around. If a unit is in need of help from the district/council, and is constantly being ignored, the unit will start isolating themselves. If unit leaders work to put on events, and do not get the support they need to run the event, get overruled on things, or the event is cancelled last minute despite everything being in place and ready to go, but the "budget surplus" is not being met, then units will start isolating themselves. If a unit attends their council summer camp, and it is an absolute Charley Foxtrot; with the suggestions and recommendations to improve the camp and its program are ignored, then you will have units doing their own thing. The irony in my experience is that the leaders of these units were usually some of the most active, pro council volunteers. In one council I was in, the units in question had former district committee members, Silver Beavers and OA Vigils in them. They were accused of being "Council Kool Aid Drinkers ( I know, Jim Jones used Flavor Aid), because they were at one time so supportive of council. Ditto on the second council I have seen this occur.

I would be EXTREMELY leery about this. Sometimes that is all it takes. But most of the time it takes that PLUS mentoring. And I have seen cases where folks took the training, thought they knew better, and ignored any mentoring to get them up to speed. Kayn Hourbacker got it at 11. He joined at 10 years old, and did it in exactly 19 months. Then there is this girl at 12. I question how much they really know. I met one Eagle who got it at 13 that I can say knew their stuff. He was also pushed by his Eagle And Explorer Ranger Award dad ( OK I screwed up, I called the dad a Gold award recipient all these years because Ranger ended in 1949. But I recently found out that if you started it before 1949, you got to finish it until 1951.) Here is the deal though, he quit immediately after getting it. No HA trips, jamborees, OA, nothing.

Thanks for the updated stats. You are correct.. Don't ask about recruiting outside of school round ups and talks. We do them, and most boys interested in what we do are already in Scouts. And those troop are catching on to focusing on adventure, not advancement. I have recruited more girls for the girls troop. One Girl Scout said she wished her GSUSA troop would do some of the stuff we do. When I mentioned the girls troop she said, " My mom would kill me. She works for the Girl Scouts."

Depends upon circumstances. My unit follows the program, retains Scouts, even long after they earn Eagle in some cases. We have an active program that the Scouts pick. Adults do not force them to do an activity they do not want to do. But we have no feeder pack, and have not in at least 15 years. Troop always had transfers into it. Out of the 7 on my charter, 5 transferred from other troops, and 1 had his older brothers transfer into it. And the troop has survived by having an active, Scout-led program since before I transferred 7 years ago. I cannot find the stat now, but last time I checked 90+% of Scouts move up from Cub Scouts. And usually troops die within 6 years of packs folding. The other troop without a pack has not had one in 5 years, and they may be folding. The 2 troops with packs have wised up, and started imitating us. Not only do they jealously guard their Cub Scout packs, they are now retaining their Scouts. One of those troops, is the one I transferred from. I almost had 1/2 the troop transfer with me, until the COR stepped in. And in my neck of the woods, lack of Cub Scout recruiting is the #1 reason units are folding.

You do know that the research for "OPERATION FIRST CLASS," "First Class, First Year," or whatever it is called now is deeply flawed? The research was done in the 1980s, and the idea came out in August 1989. That's when they did away with Skill Awards, time requirements for Tenderfoor, Second Class, and First Class, and went from "Master the Skills," to "The Badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (SIC), not what he has done." mentality which IMHO leads to "One and Done." Research showed that Scouts who got First Class in 18 months stay around longer, which is true. BUT what was not included in the stats was 2 things: 1.How active a unit is and 2. LDS units. The more active a troop is, doing the activities the Scouts want to do, will lead to retention. Yes advancement is slower, but those Scouts stick around longer. Best example is my soon to be 21 y.o. ASM. He spent 4 years working on First Class as the swimming requirement was the issue. But the troop dis activities he liked, and he stuck around. He eventually passed the swim test, and earned Eagle. He has stuck around as much as possible while in college. And all of my Eagles have stuck around until 18, or until they started college. Why? Because we are active and do the activities they want to do. But the surveyors dis not show how active a troop was in their results. The LDS units would segregate their 11 year old Scouts. I have seen lesson plans where the 11 year old patrol would repeat the same program every year. They were treated as if they were still Cub Scouts, with an ASM serving more as a DL, and TGs acting more like den chiefs. Their program guaranteed them First Class in one year. One reason why LDS units got upset when the Camping requirement for First Class went from 4 camp outs to 6 campouts in 2016: their 11 year olds were not allowed to camp more than 4 times /year. And their protest changed it back to 4 (aside this ticked off my middle son as he had to wait 2 months to get the 6 campouts in, and right as he goes for his First Class BOR, National changed it back to 4. He was ticked off) And since the LDS used Scouting as their youth program, ALL (emphasis) males were registered in their troops, whether they were active or not. That skewed the data. So do not take the First Class, First Year to seriously. If you push it, you will have Scouts get bored, note care, leave, or stick around long enough to get Eagle and then quit. I have seen this happen with a lot over the years.