qwazse

My COR, a Presbyterian (PCUSA), said she would support us if parents in the community wanted to charter a BSA4G pack or troop. In the Presbyterian (EPC) church I attend, one of the knocks against chartering a pack was BSA's narrow focus on male theists. I do not expect there to be statement on the issue from either church's respective denomination. Both churches would not tolerate such an incursion on local governance.

I think he would be deeply concerned about our dependence on prefabricated tents. Actually, I bet ... He would be thrilled with Scouts Indonesia. The scouts in former Eastern Block countries would receive high praise for rebuilding from scratch. He would tout those as models for the rest of us. Scouts UK's decision to give different oaths for different religious sensibilities would baffle him. Regarding BSA, he would challenge us about what we're doing with an abundance of riches. He would be very concerned about facilities for scouts in distant parts of the world. It would be neat to have a monthly podcast from him.

I would like to know who was the first boy to publicly credit his scout training for being able to stop a runaway horse.

What? You all wouldn't know where Laurel Highlands is without seeing the CSP? I'm all for the going the opposite direction. A custom CSP for each unit: a view from on high of the planet (or at least the part wherein your council resides), state boundaries in black, with your council boarder in red and a red thread pinned to the location of your CO (or the centre of your district for district staff). No more lettering. It's time for you all to know you geography.

I just want to put out there that, in units steeped in tradition, this form of "nuclear option" doesn't go over well. This is especially true if your COR hasn't even dropped in on committee meetings in a while. If it's his way or the highway, but half the room hits the road, all he gets is a lonely highway and nothing to haul on it.

Let's also not write-off your soul doing a reality check. Maybe you should only go to one weekend training a year, because life is busy. Maybe you can only realistically give your den quality time and beyond that your family, job, or spirit might need a lot of attention, and if you commit to the 10 opportunities that come up at round-table that will have you "dropping the ball" somewhere else. If your personality has always been one to say "yes" then your stress response may be your body saying "no can do" on your behalf. In this case, verbally saying "no can do" and turning down the people trolling for volunteers is less stressful. (As one who loves volunteering, I assure you that this is true.) But, if you're not used to ignoring other people's feelings, this can produce a lot of inner turmoil.

Yes, read the guidebook! Things are more nuanced than that. I suspect your COR is only concerned with good people as leaders and the last one out turning off lights and locking the door ... and smiles on the boys faces. I think the "baby step" that your husband agreed upon is a good one to work with, but only if you have at least a patrol of boys itching to try a different camp. We could not convince our boys to pick anything but their spot-by-the-water in week 1 for love nor money. When we merged troops, most of those boys were not going to give up on the camp they had been attending (also in week 1). So, if we are to plan anything for the summer, it's those camps + whatever other adventure scouts plan. By the way, this has nothing to do with how many years you have in the program. It does have to do with building shared vision, and the new person can do that as well as some SM emeritus who comes to the same realizations as you.

I always took this for granted, until I congratulated the SM for the minute he gave at his 1st court of honor in the position. He told me that was the first time he ever spoke in front of a crowd (scouts exempted). He said he was incredibly nervous and avoided public speaking like the plague since high school. I would suggest confiding in a friend about your anxiety. Just knowing that someone in he crowd understands the challenge that you're facing might help. Simply put, it's nice to be prayed for.

I have mixed feelings about WB. Funding was the least of my concerns. Now, if you would have offered to take my crew on a whitewater trip, or even host them on your property for an evening, while I was off taking the course ... THAT would have eased my mind greatly. So, let me give you a bigger "ask". Every year ask a scouter who you think could benefit from WB what's keeping him/her from attending. It could be kids who need babysat, a unit like I mentioned who is short on leadership, chores around the house to get done. See exactly where you could fill in. Or, it could also be down payments on a high adventure trip they need to make. See if you could (maybe with your scouts or another scouter) could fill in that actual gap. Sometimes, we can over-monitise a situation. Money is great, but a lot of people will respond to personal involvement.

Two solutions: 1. Maintain it for 15 days. "Release" it to your buddy's for a day. Maintain it for 15 more days. 2. Start the requirement on Feb 1. Complete it the day before March 1. Or, just adopt the animal as a pet! That's the point of the requirement. Some boys will want to keep a pet, and this badge is a way for them to master that responsibility. Others would rather watch tadpoles die metamorphose.

Dues (about $80/year now) cover registration fees and bling. Summer camp, uniforms, and nominal weekend camp fees are out-of-pocket. Troop equipment is payed for by fundraisers. The SM also has a discretionary fund. But, lately he hasn't been tapping it. A portion of funds raised by each scout is put under his stewardship for the good of the troop. (E.g., if you buy your uniform with your allocation, your are expected to turn it in when you are done with it.) The treasurer puts out a regular report of income and expenses. So it's pretty clear what we need to raise. I think we have been on target. A troop should have reserve for about one year's worth of expenses. Usually that number should be calculated after summer camp so you have a good idea what's in the checkbook after summer camp fees are spent and before fall fundraisers kick up. So, if that number keeps dwindling every year, it's your problem. If it sky-rockets (say a big donation or some other windfall), it's your problem. If it's roughly what it was in years past, you're okay. Offloading expenses to families sometimes works. Sometimes doesn't. It really depends on your community.

E94, you got to know when to hold 'em: NEVER NEGOTIATE BACKWARDS! That's as bad as violating my rule #1 (don't ask for a rule)! You could have said "OKay, whatever, tenderfoot it is." And left the room. It's not my job to solve some adult's beef about a kid. If it matters, the SM can just say "kid, you're not ready yet." I sure hope that you went and apologized to that scout.

Proof will be in the pudding if the 4G results in a net gain in B a decade from now. We're both skeptical about that one. That doesn't negate that OA has hedged its bets with marketing doublespeak by contriving youth membership requirements to be dependent on the make-up of some divisions of BSA, fiddling with loopholes rather than admitting its narrow focus as an honor society for boys in scouting.

@HelpfulTracks, it's my understanding that a boy who did all of his activity in a post at the time, providing he had obtained 1st class, could be elected. No troop involvement required. I've met a few explorers from central PA and NY who camped regularly. So, a nomination from a post would not be that far fetched. For me, this is very simple. And it has to do with @Stosh's scouts' ambivalence toward OA: Either they are scouting's honor society like they say they are, or they are a safe space niche program for boys. I'm fine with either. Just don't make your byline one thing and when you are the other.

How quickly we forget that OA's byline is "Scouting's National Honor Society" Well, in the first place, OA was open to Explorers. See Mike Walton's reply in https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/07/18/female-youth-order-of-the-arrow/ regarding the history of OA including Explorerrs, then closing that door in the 90's.The contrived "troop/team" specification was all to could avoid saying "no girls allowed." Like I said, it would be fine by me if the up and said that. But, when it no longer recognizes a swath of the organization's honorable campers, what kind of society is it really?

Explain to me again why I should dismiss a scouter who may be, for example, my best shooting instructor, because he has a chip on his shoulder about the opposite sex? If this is going to work, we are all going to have to put up with each other's rough edges. My boys and my daughter had to learn skills from folks who voiced views that Mrs. Q. and I disagreed with. And sometimes what was said was objectively demeaning. I asked the kids to tune out the noise and respect who did the work. They are better adults for it. No regrets.

@ParaSloth, please don't be offended by the snark of that last reply. The whole "won't go camping alone" seals the deal. We just have to accept that ... Mom and dad have their reasons for not getting registered and trained. The boy isn't ready to be off on his own. The troop has it's policies for their own reasons. Nobody is going to adjust in time for crossing-over. And you know what? That's really okay. We're assuming you want to do your best. Thus your post. I think your best is to encourage this boy to spend as much time as he can with the pack and the webelos den. Then, on his 11th birthday, consider joining your troop. But, also give your parents a list of troops in your district and encourage them to take him for a visit. The whole AOL award is secondary. The goal is for the scout to have fun. Being in a troop that he's not comfortable with is not fun. Are you transferring to the troop? If so, the next-in-line DL will have to help with the award. This isn't bad. Maybe by learning to work with a different DL, he can be more comfortable with the new caring adults that he may find wherever he lands.

I never understood why DL's get worked up over this sort of thing. Bingo!

It's not so much a matter of "less safe", but of unknown odds. A teacher knows the track record of a school backing corrective action (or not). Scouters aren't so certain about who has their back if someone decides to pillory them. Following YPT should keep the odds in your favor, but not by much. And, because experience with BSA4G-type scenarios is limited, we can't get a good grip on the odds of false reports. Frankly, even now, I don't think BSA can produce any stats on rates of abuse reports vs confirmed abuse in recent decades. So, we don't know if we're going up, down, or sideways.

I see no reason why a BSA troop couldn't invite a BSA4G Webelos den to come camping with them.

@hawkwin, that may be one way of preserving the "boys-only" tradition, but I don't think a "girls-only" society in BSA4G will pan out. We've seen that happen with Venturing societies. And besides, I've found mixed sex drum circles to be thoroughly enjoyable. I think O/A missed the boat by avoiding giving girls and boys the chance to work this out decades ago.

@springnow, welcome to the forums! And congratulations to your son for all of his hard work. According to https://www.scouting.org/stem/Council/Volunteer_Support.aspx, the counselor should Submit any questions regarding the Nova or Supernova awards to myscouting@scouting.org. I'm just taking a crack at your questions based on the way the reqs are written and human nature when it comes to developing these things. 1. The way it is written, the scout may choose the order based on logical progression. So, in your scout's case, earning the MB was already done. So, he could present what he learned from that, as well as the results from reading and developing research questions. In other words, he would meet with his counselor regarding reqs1&2, then set a timetable for the remaining steps. 2. It looks like "Let it Grow" is a new module this year, according to http://www.usscouts.org/advance/nova/scout-nova-5.asp. Probably they are in negotiations with the web designer about how much to pay the graphic artist for a new icon. Thus your confusion. As I biologist at heart, I like how including agriculture makes the NOVA award STEAMy! Have fun with the program! Let us know what your son does with it, and his likes and dislikes about it when he's done.

The following reply explains why I'll never be in the key-three ... Some messes are just better cleaned up after the cake is in the oven.

Like TT, I don't want to waste words with scouters or scouts in my district. If a handful of girls come knocking, our COR made it clear that the CO wants to try to support them, and that stupid third point of the Law will constrain me. Until then there is nothing to talk about. Some scouters have brought this up with the boys' sisters, and none of them are interested. BSA really derailed themselves with all of the "family" doublespeak. When they simply market this as for girls (i.e., 4G), we can all be honest about what we're supporting or opposing. I am certain that scouters opposed to BSA4G are pro-family types just as much as those in favor of it. I loved it when Son #2's best frien took his family camping after his first summer camp. As I've said elsewhere, I'd be fine with increasing the nights required for Camping MB if nights under the stars with folks outside the boys troop (e.g., family, youth group, soccer team) could count. So, if you said "family camping" four years ago, I'd say "Great, that's one desired outcome." But by trying to use a buzzword that everyone is supposed to like for policies that people will have apprehensions about, National muddied waters needlessly and insulted the intelligence of a couple million scouts and scouters. So, we've got people arguing over the lipstick on the pig when the only thing that matters is how long the bacon's cured.

I feel you TT, but that goes against my rule #1 (never ask for a rule) on so many levels. You do realize that the guideline we have was expressly written to exclude female youth? Until some lodge chiefs invited a few gun-ho female explores to be tapped out, no distinction was made. It's not like there were hundreds of candidates getting elected by their troops while camping exclusively with Gramps at his deer stand for two years straight. I would be fine if O/A explicitly said "boy only" and trimmed the nonsense out of membership requirements. Some enterprising individuals could then establish O/A4G, possibly allowing a pathway for venturing females. Then the two honor societies through combinations of joint and segregated activities could compare notes and figure out best practices after a little real-world experience. In fact, had someone offered such a possibility to GS/USA decades ago, we might have avoided this current mess. I would also be fine if O/A left the requirements unchanged. If BSA4G organizes in troops, then those units could rightly hold elections. Activities would necessarily be co-ed, and current G2SS rules apply. Norms on modesty vary by region, but I'm sure we're not letting these young ladies run around dressed like Pocahontas at Jamestown (hint: it probably wasn't the Disney princess cover-up). The chiefs and advisors will have to hollow out this new canoe slowly. But, expecting National to bang out a set of best practices in one year with no idea how popular it will be among young women or any real vision of the character of those young women who a BSA4G troop would nominate ... that is just setting the whole thing up for failure. Those practices won't stand the test of time.