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TAHAWK last won the day on July 9

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    The following, for what it's worth, from the National Council (I inquired after everyone I talked to at local council claimed to be unaware of the proposed new rules):: "National legal counsel stated that 1 person must be registered (Merit Badge Counselor) and the 2nd adult does not have to be registered but must be over 21 – suggestion is a parent.." This is not responsive. The new rules does not call for "persons" or adults, but "registered adults." The new rule needs to be withdrawn and reconsidered by competent adults aware that parents have legal custody and Scouters have, per se, no legal status vis-a-vis the children of others. The claimed purposes of YPT do not required "registered" adults, when parents, law enforcement officers, librarians, or school teachers could insure a Scout's safety at least as well. Here is the rest of the response from the central hive: "1. Why is YPT training reached on web via "position-specific training" when it is not? (This is a required training for all adult leaders.) [Ans] Every registered adult is required to complete the YPT. Therefore, the link is provided. [Apparently doesn't understand what "position-specific" means.]2. The rule prohibiting use of alcohol and drugs on Scout property was eliminated. Now I find two rules barring drugs and alcohol "when prohibited by a BSA rule," but there is no such rule any longer. An oversight, I trust. [My local council "knew only that they could now rent property for events where liquor would be served and had no idea how that was accomplished. My local council had not passed any policy to replace the revoked BS policy barring alcohol and controlled substances from its property.][Ans] Councils have the decision on this. While most councils have a policy that talks about no alcohol while scouts are present -they have left it open if they want to be able to rent out the property for weddings and other events that have a controlled situation and may want to offer alcohol. Again it is the council’s decision. [So a council rule is a BSA rule and the drug issue is ignored. I conclude National wanted, for financial reasons, to free up Scouting property for booze. Same logic as needing a "liquor license" for success in the restaurant world. Then the time came to communicate. 😐 ]3. Summer camps cannot be certified without registered Merit Badge Counselors for all Merit Badges that they offer per national camping standards. Further, The Guide to Advancement requires that only registered Merit Badge Counselors pass candidates on MB requirements. Yet many Council Camps allow minors - not registered MB Counselors by definition - to hand out Merit Badges, often with no testing whatsoever on any requirement. This is known to National Council. What does National Council propose to do about it? Another Merit Badge Mill summer is upon us at Camp Frontier. [Ans]The council’s advancement committee is to approve the syllabus for the courses during camp and approve who can teach the courses [False if she implies minors or persons not registered as Merit Badge Counselors can be authorized by a local council to be Merit Badge Counselors. In fact, expressly prohibited. See Guide to Advancement.] Most councils state that a 21 or older person must sign them. [Issue is who tests AND chronic failure to test. Yes, camps have an adult sign Blue Cards - in total ignorance of what the candidates have done - or not done, constituting a fraud.] National Camp Standard (NCAP) PD-106 requires that they be presented by qualified personnel . [ Anyone qualified can teach, although many who teach are highly unqualified, but Registered Merit Badge Counselors MUST be the gatekeepers who decide if the requirements are met.] and are consistent with the BSA advancement policy.. As a result, were rules to matter when filling camp and mass "advancement" is at stake, some arrangement to have registered Merit Badge Counselors monitoring the MB program is required by National Camp Standard PD-106" for a camp to be "Approved." Name omitted to protect the authoress. At least she responded, which is rare. But how can the official information source be so clueless?


    Passing rules with the expectation that the solution to the damage the rules do is solved by the rules being ignored is incompetent.


    Exchange with one bubble at National Council: Q: "4. There is a new rule in the Guide to Safe Scouting (effective10/01/18) stating that: Two "registered adults"(necessarily 18 or older to be "adults") must be "at" all "Scout activities." Even assuming you speak only of BSA scouting activities, what does this mean? I can no longer meet with a merit badge candidate in his home with his parent(s) in the house but must gin up another BSA-registered Scouter? . . ." A: ". . .National legal counsel stated that 1 person must be registered (Merit Badge Counselor) and the 2nd ["registered"] adult does not have to be registered but must be over 21 – suggestion is a parent.. . . Mandy Nora Member Care Contact Center Boy Scouts of America 972.580.2489 " OK. 0___0 I suppose that if we need to pretend that a parent is, ipso facto, a "registered adult," to get some relief from a truly ridiculous rule that will greatly damage program, we do the "Wink; wink; nod; nod" bit. Still does not provide any way to conduct merit badge sessions at summer camp without two "registered adults" present (whatever "at" means), but as they have been, for many merit badges at many (most?) council summer camps, largely doing without any Merit Badge Counselors, or passing requirements, those camps can and may probably ignore that rule too. "Wink; wink; nod; nod." Rules are obviously for LOL. _____________________________ Timeless Values


    http://www.apa.org/education/k12/teacher-victimization.aspx "How Big is the Problem? According to the U.S. Department of Education, from 2011-12 (PDF, 4.14MB), approximately: 9% reported being physically threatened ["Assault"] 5% reported being physically attacked in schools. From 1997-2001 (PDF, 800KB) 1.3 million nonfatal crimes (including 473,000 violent crimes) were committed against America’s teachers. What Does It Cost? [assault and battery on k-12 public school teachers] Victimization costs — both obvious and hidden — include: Lost wages. Lost days of work (927,000 days/per year). Training and replacement of teachers leaving the school or profession prematurely. Medical and psychological care. Student disciplinary proceedings. Increased workers’ compensation claims and premiums. Incarceration of perpetrators" SOURCE: http://www.apa.org/education/k12/teacher-victimization.aspx Thinking about this topic, I witnessed two incidents in my 13 years in public school ( eleven in Orange County, CA:) An 8th grade student put a tack on a teacher's chai ( He was surprised to find himself denounced and, when back from suspension, shunned.); and An 8th grade student a year older than the rest of us, decided to attack our Health and Science teacher who had told him to put out a cigarette he was openly smoking during the section on health risks of smoking. To the delight and amusement of the rest of us, short, blocky, middle-aged Mr Thornton demonstrated why he was the California power lifting champion in his age group and held Bob the Bully against the blackboard (kicking, screaming, and cursing) (at least ten minutes) until a couple of us could, via the "office, " summon help in the form of two Garden Grove police officers. Bob's bully creds were ruined. "MK T" was the school hero, but never should have needed to prove he had a big "S" on his undershirt. Both occurrences in the same, brand new, "lntermediate," school.


    "Confronted"? He was asked. He told the truth. Yes I would have moved my car. Even the IRS makes allowances for errors in returns that reduce taxes, unless they think intent was involved. So compared to these "educators, "the IRS is Christ-like. I hope for mercy, especially for innocent mistakes, as God is merciful and many mere mortals are not. For such creatures, who elevate rules over justice, I try to hope for mercy when they are judged. What "weapon"? It was a small pen knife in a survival kit. locked in a glove compartment in a locked vehicle. Or do we speak of the six-year-old who showed his friends his knife/fork/spoon tool. As an educator, you can find a definition of "weapon." As a former educator. I certainly can. In a prison, a sharp pencil secreted about a convict may fairly be regarded sa a weapon (AKA "shank"). This is a school and a six-year-old. "Suffer the little children" does not mean Reform School for what the child did. "Educators" (and police) like this need to be swept out at the next election. Six years old. Jailed. Really??


    Whatever is is right? We teach that it is OK to work for change. That is how we got a nation. The Eagle reported himself, as you, understandably, did not. He was punished. You were not. He did no more wrong - if any - in a moral or ethical sense


    No. They said no decision was required. The penalty followed automatically from having the knife, regardless of any intent or knowledge that anyone with reason could regard such a tiny knife as a "weapon"- thus dodging the issue of whether the knife was a "weapon" rather than a common tool. I suppose it was coincidental that he was an Eagle Scout. It should not have been done to anyone without some reason to decide that the knife was a weapon, rather than something else - say a common tool that helped make him more "prepared"for a winter crisis. In Ohio, our Supreme Court has held, one cannot be prosecuted for "carrying a concealed weapon" for having a knife on their person absent a finding that there is probable cause to believe the knife was carried with the intent that it be a weapon. Obviously, our precious children deserve less in some eyes. And nutso penalties are meted out regularly in No Tolerance Land: "A 6-year-old boy's excitement over joining the Cub Scouts may just land him in reform school for 45 days. Zachary Christie was suspended from his 1st grade class in Delaware's Christina School District after bringing a camping utensil - a combination knife/fork/spoon [aka "Hobo knife") - to use at lunch, prompting calls to reexamine schools' zero-tolerance policy for bringing weapons to school, according to a New York Times report Monday. Zero tolerance policies were instituted in many school districts across the country, at least in part due to violence at Columbine and Virginia Tech, the report notes. Their rigid enforcement is designed to eliminate the appearance of bias or discrimination on the part of school officials. The school district's policy is enforced "regardless of intent" and "does not take into consideration a child's age," reports CBS News correspondent Jim Axelrod. But residents, and some lawmakers, are now wondering why schools can't apply a more common-sense discretion to such instances. "It just seems unfair," said Zachary, who is being home-schooled while his mother, Debbie Christie, tries to fight the suspension. That involved Zachary appearing before a district disciplinary committee with his karate instructor and mother's fiancé vouching for him as character witnesses. "Zachary wears a suit and tie some days to school by his own choice because he takes school so seriously," his mother said. "He is not some sort of threat to his classmates." Christie started a Web site, helpzachary.com, to drum up support for her son. State Representative Teresa L. Schooley wrote the disciplinary committee, asking each member to "consider the situation, get all the facts, find out about Zach and his family and then act with common sense for the well-being of this child." But the strict enforcement of the policy has its supporters. "There is no parent who wants to get a phone call where they hear that their child no longer has two good seeing eyes because there was a scuffle and someone pulled out a knife [pencil, pen, finger, scissors, drafting ruler?]," said George Evans, the school district board's president. There has been a move to give school officials more flexibility in "weapon"-related incidents. After a third-grade girl was expelled for a year after bringing in a knife to cut the birthday cake her grandmother sent in to the class, a new law was passed allowing officials to modify punishments on a case-by-case basis. But that was for expulsions, not suspensions as Zachary is faced with. Another revision to the law is being drafted to address suspensions, according to the report." © 2009 CBS. All rights reserved. " "It’s a Fork, It’s a Spoon, It’s a ... Weapon? For Delaware, Zachary’s case is especially frustrating because last year state lawmakers tried to make disciplinary rules more flexible by giving local boards authority to, “on a case-by-case basis, modify the terms of the expulsion.” The law was introduced after a third-grade girl was expelled for a year because her grandmother had sent a birthday cake to school, along with a knife to cut it. The teacher called the principal — but not before using the knife to cut and serve the cake." New York Times at https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?_r=1> "Chapter 5 of One Nation Under Arrest is titled “Criminalizing Kids.” This chapter includes stories demonstrating that it is not just adults who face the dangers of overcriminalization. The prevailing mindset among most legislators and government policy makers is that criminal law and criminal punishment are generally the best tools to “solve” any important problem. As a result, more and more children have been victimized by overcriminalization. The Boy Scout motto is “Be Prepared,” but not even Miles Rankin’s Scout Master could have prepared Miles for the injustice this twelve-year-old adventurer would suffer in Henry County, Georgia. Miles Rankin was a dedicated student with good grades. In addition to being diligent in his studies, Miles was learning to serve his community with the Boy Scouts. So it was shocking to many when they saw Miles being handcuffed in class, marched through his school by uniformed police officers, and taken away in a squad car to a juvenile detention facility. What was his offense? He did not take his coveted Boy Scout pocket knife out of his pocket before leaving home that morning. Unfortunately, cases like these have become increasingly common. In an effort to solve specific problems, lawmakers and public officials are eager to pass laws and implement policies that criminalize behavior regardless of the offender’s intent. Miles’s case is a perfect example. After showing some of his friends the two-inch pocket knife, one of them informed the teacher. None of the students who saw the knife said they felt threatened, nor did they think Miles might harm someone. There was no evidence that Miles had any intention of doing anything wrongful with the knife. While a school has every right to impose reasonable and appropriate discipline upon a student if his behavior violates school policy or poses a risk to others, the school board’s actions in this case were downright ludicrous. As if the humiliation of being treated like a common criminal in his own school and in front of his peers was not enough, that is only half of Miles’s story. After being taken to a detention facility, Miles was brought to juvenile court where Henry County officials added additional restraints. The presiding judge, who coincidentally also served as the attorney for the school board, decided that Miles should remain in the detention center. Only after Miles had spent 48 hours away locked up were his parents able to pick him up on conditional release. Following his stint in juvenile detention, the school held a disciplinary hearing, where he freely admitted to bringing the knife to school. The frightened 12-year-old was subsequently expelled for the remainder of the year. The Rankin family appealed the punishment, but the Henry County school board simply reviewed the transcript without conducting an independent inquiry of its own before affirming the school’s decision. Compounding the hardship Miles faced, the juvenile court deemed Miles “in a state of delinquency” and ordered him to serve thirty days under house arrest, imposed a curfew on him, and placed him on 180 days of probation. Miles’ story is not unique. Dozens of other innocent Americans like Miles have suffered from the arbitrary and unjust exercise of power that comes from overbroad criminal laws. When a Boy Scout’s merely carrying a two-inch pocket knife is a crime, we are in grave danger of criminalizing almost everything. This is just one example of “overcriminalization,” and you can read about more in “One Nation Under Arrest: How Crazy Laws, Rogue Prosecutors and Activist Judges Threaten Your Liberty” and at our web site, Overcriminalized.com Miles Rankin’s legal troubles stemmed from the zero-tolerance policy in his school. Zero-tolerance policies result in part from the propensity of many parents to challenge and even sue school officials for almost any exercise of professional judgment and discretion. Many school boards and administrators try to protect themselves by adopting zero-tolerance policies that allow for no exercise of judgment at all. Zero-tolerance policies do nothing, however, to engender respect for the law or for the officials who tie their hands with them. Of course, protecting students is a top priority, but in the process of ensuring safety, lawmakers and public officials must not abandon common sense and professional judgment. Miles Rankin and his family’s life have been scarred by an indiscriminate group of administrators who found it easier to hide behind a zero-tolerance policy than to exercise sound judgment. They were so caught up in their own policy that they could not appreciate the real-life consequences of such an irresponsible application of law. What kind of message does that send to society? Miles’s situation resulted from a knife he used in the Boy Scouts. He was not a gang member planning an attack on a fellow classmate. Like thousands upon thousands of Scouts before him, Miles was showing off one of the tools he learned to use while also learning the principles of good citizenship and how to serve his community. After this deplorable application of criminal law and school policy by Henry County’s public officials, maybe they too could benefit from a lesson in these virtues. And perhaps clear-thinking voters later gave them one." Scott Burton at www.dailysignal.com/2010/05/24/one-nation-under-arrest-the-end-of-the-pocket-knife/. (The author is an intern in the Center for Legal and Judicial Studies at The Heritage Foundation.) The quality of mercy is not strained; It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest; It blesseth him that gives and him that takes. The Merchant of Venice, Act IV, Scene I, “Hence, as regards man, who has God above him, charity, which unites him to God, is greater than mercy, whereby he supplies the defects of his neighbor. But of all the virtues which relate to our neighbor, mercy is the greatest, even as its act surpasses all others, since it belongs to one who is higher and better to supply the defect of another, in so far as the latter is deficient.” St. Thomas Aquinas (ST IIa-IIae, 30)[emphasis added ]


    Yes, and I staffed WB x 3 when officially, I had never taken WB and staffed numerous other council and district courses I had never taken - apart from "Scoutmaster training" in 1910 or 1912. Yours in Scouting, The oldest man in America. PS My records were fine until National forced all councils to switch to common software - that will not work. It also shows me as the District Chairman, three times, of a district that did not exist, twenty and more years before I was hatched.


    It must be frustrating to deal with people who constantly question received wisdom. and won't kiss your ring. But I experienced the last great "We know better" moment in 1972. The kids at National did not. I have my 50 in. I don't have to watch this fiasco again.
  10. TAHAWK

    potentially the stupidest GTSS rule?

    It is merely highly inconvenient and unnecessary to bar wagons and wheelbarrows for 10.5-13 Scouts in BSA Scouting. You can carry the concrete, sand, dirt, etc. in buckets (Risks to the spine unless load balanced!!) It would merely greatly increase the time and effort required for any service project involving moving significant weights and volumes of material. (The rule is being systematically ignored in this area, the historic fate of silly rules, creating disrespect and disregard for safety rules in general. It is a serious misdemeanor in Cleveland, Ohio, punishable by AT LEAST six months in jail to pick up a plastic knife at McDonad's or (in a "public place") any other "knife" with a blade 2.5" or longer. That rule, too, is ignored by one and all, except prosecutors seeking to over-indict someone charged with another crime for bargaining leverage. )( Go ahead. Measure a McD's plastic "knife." Thee blade is 3".) It is very damaging to program to seem to require two registered adults "at" all BSA Scouting activities: a fine example of people locked in a "bubble" - here the risk management bubble - and ignoring the need to provide program, already sharply limited by lack of adult help and now to be significantly more limited. The presence of a Scout's parent(s), nearby, should suffice They are the lawful custodians of the minor. We lack any legal status vis-a-vis the child because we are (for the moment) Scouters registered with BSA. "Stupidest Rule?" The local rules that allow axes and any "folding knife" and provide zero tolerance for fixed-blade knives are at least as stupid because safety is a function of the type and size of knife, training of the user, and supervision - not whether it folds or not. In fact, all other things being equal, a folding knife is, statistically, less safe. Lock-blades?- A lock-blade knife, when locked, is, at that point, functionally, a fixed-blade knife. But the authors of the ZT rules did't think of that, having little actual information but many fears. Most such rules tend to be made by the ignorant out of feelings rather than based on facts. Those who know and use knives might suggest a limiting rule, but it would not be THAT rule. ADDED EXAMPLE: 1968 ban on telescoping stocks and flash suppressors on rifles BUT allowed folding stocks and (!) compensators. The gun nuts knew how silly this was. The paranoid were clueless about the relative functions of the parts banned or allowed ("Learn about guns?!" 😵). The folding stock is functionally equivalent to the telescoping stock, and the compensator allows a higher rate of aimed fire, which the flash suppressor does not.
  11. TAHAWK

    potentially the stupidest GTSS rule?

    No. In is merely highly inconvenient and unnecessary to bar wagon and wheelbarrows for 10.5-13 Scouts in BSA Scouting. I is very damaging to program to seem to require two registered adults "at" all BSA Scouting activities: a fine example of people locked in a "bubble" - here the risk mangement bubble - and ignoring the need to povide program, already limited by lack of adult help and nor to be significantly more limited. And it is not about "safety." If it were, the presence of a Scout's parent(s) would suffice. They are the lawful parents, with custody. We lack any legal status.
  12. TAHAWK


    "Each individual should “take charge” of the documentation of their training, " Because BSA and Council records can be a little off. When I checked my record a couple years ago, it said I completed Scoutmaster training in 1910. I submitted the official form that I was given to point out that the correct date was 1961. My official record now says I completed Scoutmaster training in 1912. 🎃
  13. TAHAWK


    "Common Sense'" is typical humor in our culture. Like calling the biggest k😁id in school "Tiny.":😁
  14. TAHAWK


    No. Really? And this is the locus of a "hive mind."?
  15. TAHAWK


    An Eagle Scout who drove long distances to school in northern climes, admitted to having a small pen knife in a survival kit locked in his glove compartment, locked in his truck, in the school parking lot. Under a "zero tolerance: policy against "weapons," he was expelled. The school bureaucrats said they had no way to excuse his violation. So much for "judgment." Gee, how could discretion have been applied to prevent this absurd result? Not a "weapon." But that would require someone to take responsibility for the outcome. Instead, we get, in effect, " I was only following orders."