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I never understood why DL's get worked up over this sort of thing. Bingo!

It's not so much a matter of "less safe", but of unknown odds. A teacher knows the track record of a school backing corrective action (or not). Scouters aren't so certain about who has their back if someone decides to pillory them. Following YPT should keep the odds in your favor, but not by much. And, because experience with BSA4G-type scenarios is limited, we can't get a good grip on the odds of false reports. Frankly, even now, I don't think BSA can produce any stats on rates of abuse reports vs confirmed abuse in recent decades. So, we don't know if we're going up, down, or sideways.

I see no reason why a BSA troop couldn't invite a BSA4G Webelos den to come camping with them.

@hawkwin, that may be one way of preserving the "boys-only" tradition, but I don't think a "girls-only" society in BSA4G will pan out. We've seen that happen with Venturing societies. And besides, I've found mixed sex drum circles to be thoroughly enjoyable. I think O/A missed the boat by avoiding giving girls and boys the chance to work this out decades ago.

@springnow, welcome to the forums! And congratulations to your son for all of his hard work. According to https://www.scouting.org/stem/Council/Volunteer_Support.aspx, the counselor should Submit any questions regarding the Nova or Supernova awards to [email protected]. I'm just taking a crack at your questions based on the way the reqs are written and human nature when it comes to developing these things. 1. The way it is written, the scout may choose the order based on logical progression. So, in your scout's case, earning the MB was already done. So, he could present what he learned from that, as well as the results from reading and developing research questions. In other words, he would meet with his counselor regarding reqs1&2, then set a timetable for the remaining steps. 2. It looks like "Let it Grow" is a new module this year, according to http://www.usscouts.org/advance/nova/scout-nova-5.asp. Probably they are in negotiations with the web designer about how much to pay the graphic artist for a new icon. Thus your confusion. As I biologist at heart, I like how including agriculture makes the NOVA award STEAMy! Have fun with the program! Let us know what your son does with it, and his likes and dislikes about it when he's done.

The following reply explains why I'll never be in the key-three ... Some messes are just better cleaned up after the cake is in the oven.

Like TT, I don't want to waste words with scouters or scouts in my district. If a handful of girls come knocking, our COR made it clear that the CO wants to try to support them, and that stupid third point of the Law will constrain me. Until then there is nothing to talk about. Some scouters have brought this up with the boys' sisters, and none of them are interested. BSA really derailed themselves with all of the "family" doublespeak. When they simply market this as for girls (i.e., 4G), we can all be honest about what we're supporting or opposing. I am certain that scouters opposed to BSA4G are pro-family types just as much as those in favor of it. I loved it when Son #2's best frien took his family camping after his first summer camp. As I've said elsewhere, I'd be fine with increasing the nights required for Camping MB if nights under the stars with folks outside the boys troop (e.g., family, youth group, soccer team) could count. So, if you said "family camping" four years ago, I'd say "Great, that's one desired outcome." But by trying to use a buzzword that everyone is supposed to like for policies that people will have apprehensions about, National muddied waters needlessly and insulted the intelligence of a couple million scouts and scouters. So, we've got people arguing over the lipstick on the pig when the only thing that matters is how long the bacon's cured.

I feel you TT, but that goes against my rule #1 (never ask for a rule) on so many levels. You do realize that the guideline we have was expressly written to exclude female youth? Until some lodge chiefs invited a few gun-ho female explores to be tapped out, no distinction was made. It's not like there were hundreds of candidates getting elected by their troops while camping exclusively with Gramps at his deer stand for two years straight. I would be fine if O/A explicitly said "boy only" and trimmed the nonsense out of membership requirements. Some enterprising individuals could then establish O/A4G, possibly allowing a pathway for venturing females. Then the two honor societies through combinations of joint and segregated activities could compare notes and figure out best practices after a little real-world experience. In fact, had someone offered such a possibility to GS/USA decades ago, we might have avoided this current mess. I would also be fine if O/A left the requirements unchanged. If BSA4G organizes in troops, then those units could rightly hold elections. Activities would necessarily be co-ed, and current G2SS rules apply. Norms on modesty vary by region, but I'm sure we're not letting these young ladies run around dressed like Pocahontas at Jamestown (hint: it probably wasn't the Disney princess cover-up). The chiefs and advisors will have to hollow out this new canoe slowly. But, expecting National to bang out a set of best practices in one year with no idea how popular it will be among young women or any real vision of the character of those young women who a BSA4G troop would nominate ... that is just setting the whole thing up for failure. Those practices won't stand the test of time.

Welcome, and thanks for all you do for the boys! If you decide to act on one of these "little bits of golden wisdom", let us know how it goes. ... just one poor beggar telling another where to find food ...

There's always going to be a bit of "if you give a mouse a cookie .. " on both sides. The public may contribute to the well being of the camp in ways far more valuable than the cost of occasional conflict.

Praline Connection ... used to be in the warehouse district ... after Katrina relocated east of the FQ. Might be worth looking into. Best red beans and rice I ever had.

This is what I've observed when our troop was one-patrol. Responsibilities weren't defined by the patch so much as what needed to get done. There was this constellation of 16-17 y.o. boys on who knew how to operate the facility (as well as the program) and did what they could to make life bearable for the PL - who was younger and faced all of the usual problems that learning to lead a half dozen boys involved. The SPL/ASPL/QM/TG (or whatever they called themselves at the time) kept their distance, dropping in from time to time. With a resource that the PL could use. We were pretty strident about "he who does the work holds the position". I was hoping that would motivate the boys who weren't likely to step up and grab a PoR patch. I think it did for a couple of them. I'm afraid it made things worse for one of them. (But he was having pretty big home/school challenges at the time.) I would have preferred just one PL at the top, and the boys claiming some specific patrol role, while investing in a task-oriented PoR for the troop like QM, Librarian, Scribe, etc... I would have then advised a couple of the would-be SPL's (including Son #2) to become Webelos den chiefs. I also would have asked boys whose advancement stalled to consider Musician or Honor Guard. This would have prepared them for when the troop merged to have something of a specific culture that could flavor meetings. Hindsight. That's the problem with a one-patrol troop. Getting the right boys in the right positions so that what's best about their style is preserved and rubs off on the new kids. You have limited depth, and your vision is a little cloudy, and the boys have limited patience for vision-casting anyway. If you can get them around a campfire every month to reflect just a little, you better your odds. But maintaining physical presence is the post-modern youth's biggest challenge.

I'm not expecting anything until conclaves and NOAC. Read plainly, the current membership requirements (https://oa-bsa.org/pages/content/membership-and-induction) would allow a young woman to be nominated after 15 camping nights and a first class rank while registered in her BSA4G troop. I'm not sure if her odds would be greater or less because it would be a troop of just girls doing the voting. The current chiefs and advisors could revise the requirements to explicitly specify that only boys may apply, or drop the ridiculous "Boy Scout camping" gerrymander that carved Venturers and Explorers with things like Ranger awards out of being recognized as honor campers, or keep things as they are and welcome candidates from BSA4G troops, leaving lodges to adapt as they see fit, or go the extra mile and allow - as soon as her BSA4G troop charter is submitted - elections for any girl who had been camping regularly in a boy scout fashion for the past two years.

Talked to a 9 year old great niece, and mentioned that she and her friends could be a cub scouts next year. She said she was having fun in Girl Scouts. If she'd be interested at all she, wouldn't want to give up her GS troop. The to groups do a few activities together, and she already camps with her family enough to suit her. Her oldest brother would like to keep the space between himself and his siblings. So, there's no interest in big changes there.

oh, I remember that, now.We can now tell which scouters grew up when on this. I think men in nursing became more popular in the mid-80s. One of my best buddies from high school took it up, and it spring-boarded him into a career in medical device sales. I'm glad to hear that being a track starting in high schools.

This is a no brainer. I wore my uniform every Feb 8th in High School, often being the only uniformed guy in school. I'm glad I did. It helped when I was the only sexually restrictive ethicist in my college dorm floor, the only Christian in the Mosque, the only person who admired Darwin in a room full of creationists, etc .... You have everything to gain by wearing your field uniform in school every chance you get. You have so much to loose if you don't. Opportunities like this come rarely. If you are worried about friends (or enemies), talk to them tomorrow. Tell them you were asked to do this. Ask them what they think. Speaking of your culinary vocation, the culinary school students (when it was in town) road the same bus I did through a rough part of the city. They were to walk through the doors in proper uniform. Which meant they were dressed that way waiting for the bus ... some of them in gangsta land. On the other hand, anyone would be a fool to tease kids with sharp knives in their kits!

@prof, let us know what your people ultimately settle on and how it works.

Is this emblematic of folks being less charitable to Boy Scouts, less charitable in general, or to scouts and troops having to deal with increased fees to national? Consider, registering 20 members would have been $300 cheaper just a decade ago. That buys a lot of flag.

There's two duck to get in a row: speaking plainly saying that BSA4G starts as of X date, asking all parties to do their best to make it work with references to other scouting organizations who have done this. There is no need for long speeches.

I've only been to Seabase, where burn prevention was the biggest challenge. If your troop is young, you might want to work on the discipline of sunscreen+hat. I have hiked in the northern Rockies and canoed/kayaked a bit. I think I would find NT more challenging because of my weaker upper body. BUT, your boys will be at least 15/16 and more than capable for either adventure. I would suggest committing to a couple of weekend trips of both backpacking and canoeing each year until they make up their minds. Fact is, you may have to put your unit number in the lottery for both to see what comes available to you in 2019. So, it may literally be a coin-toss.

If it's any consolation, friends of ours completed their IRV training and flew into Houston with the assignment to transport one to Sacramento (their first love), but they had also just completed whatever training was needed for running a shelter, and got reassigned to close one in the ensuing three weeks. Last Sunday's dinner with them was all after-action review. The wife said the past couple of years living on the North Side of Pittsburgh prepared her well for interacting with clients already displaced for seven weeks!

The reference to me did not show up on my notification bar, but still linked to my profile. So, it's doing one half of its job, but not the other. P.S. - I'm in an internet-free home for the extended weekend, so I can only check this stuff as long as a barista is pouring coffee. P.P.S. - Although there's lots of flotsam and jetsam on the Treasure Coast, folks have cleaned up after Irma here nicely. Thanks for doing your part, Stosh!

This fall, we started with them meeting 15-30 minutes after each meeting. The crew also meets during this half-hour slot, but so far that hasn't caused any conflicts. Most of the PLC aren't interested in Venturing ... may not bode well for my crew, but I'm okay with that.

@clemlaw, I'm think stosh was using 'swimmer' in the general sense of the word. Reiterating my bottom line: Second Class means to me that I can count on you to jump in and swim those 10 yards to safety when the "Dark Day" comes. That day could come with a boat fire, a dock fail, slipping on a rock, getting swept up by a wave or rip tide ... it's a very long list of scenarios. Is a pool sufficient? My kids were either in Lake Erie, on the Indian River, or in the Atlantic Ocean. I learned to swim in a pool (and in the Monongahela River and some ponds rife with Snapping Turtles sometimes), which was sufficient on Lake Erie on a flat-as-glass day. The first time I was smacked in the face by a 3 foot white-capped roller, it became quite clear that I would have to relearn what I was taught. Minor tweaks. But, I was 100 percent sure that I could adapt to the added chaos - and later, the salt water. For my kids, the pool was nice to teach, but the lake on a really wavy day (with whitecaps) was what really determined that they were either beginners or swimmers or snorklers. (None ever really became guards, but the knew how to rescue with durable support.) But, what made me sure that they could get to the level that they needed to be in the environment they were handed? When they stood at the edge of the pool with just themselves (in their swimsuit, of course), jumped in, and covered the distance to the other side. SO let me be clear. This is no mere requirement for rank. This is us telling a boy he's ready to face his next aquatic challenge. If there's any inkling that the scout is seeing it as the last time he will ever swim, then he has demonstrated that he is an ender, not a beginner. Enders are not second class scouts.

No scorecard. But scouts are asked (and trained to asked) what has been done in this PoR this month? (I really don't care about a laundry-list of things not done, as some of you have seen me write in response to some scouts' posts.) Sometimes I phrase it dramatically. For example: "How have you saved our troop from disaster this month?" The hope is they will wind up repeating the question to one another. The goal is to get the boys so proud of their positions that they have an accomplishment to brag about. Basically, try to get each scout to write his own score-card. My experience is those will be tougher than any committee draws up.