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I think we need to remember a couple of things here: 1. The BSA, as far as I know, has not responded to Ms. Ireland's request. Therefore, any comments along the line about how National has devalued the Eagle, made it worthless, cheated previous recipients, etc. etc., are incorrect, because National has not done anything on this subject. Personally I think National is going to reject her request for all of the reasons that have been discussed in this forum. But whatever may happen, it hasn't happened yet and we shouldn't treat it as if it has. 2. Let's please remember that this

Whether this belongs here or scouting round the world I thought I'd swing by and show off our troop review of the year on Youtube here. Seemed to go down well with the troop tonight! A very happy and peaceful Christmas to you all

@Back Pack your post was edited. No need for derogatory references. Don't confuse awards and achievements. Your achievements are not worthless nor are their worth determined by awards assuming you receive an award. And no one can make your achievements worthless. cc: @NJCubScouter @Sentinel947

I think Back Pack sentiment shows any deviation from the rules for the first Girl Eagles --and our CSE has said there will be no change--is a land mine waiting to go off with many scouters. The first female Eagle Scout is out there somewhere and needs to earn it fair and square. Unfortunately for her I do not think Miss Ireland is that girl even though she seems like a terrific scout.

The reason for the double standard is that everyone knows all male scouters are pedophiles, but female scouters aren't. So much for the emphasis on a Scout is Trustworthy.

I read it differently. Two adults are needed. At least one of those two must be 21. At least one must be a YPT trained female. You could meet the requirement with just two people.

My sons had to give up other activities they also wanted to do to make time to fit in the Eagle. I feel bad for the girl but she was taking a risk if that was the goal. When I was a teen I got 1290 on my SAT and missed a badly needed scholarship where the cut off was 1300. I missed an A in a class after bringing up my grade from a C even though I had a 89.6 average. I missed getting Springsteen tickets (back when you had to do it in person) by ten minutes because the bus ran late. (Hey I am seeing a trend here!). To give her, or any other girl, a pass on the requirements takes away from t

Scouts are like squirrels, they forget where they bury things. Schenectady, NY "A Statue of Liberty replica that was erected in Liberty Park by the Boys Scouts in 1950 is looking for a new home. Schenectady was one of six locations in New York that had enough interested and enthusiastic Boys Scouts to order a statue. Due to construction in that area of State Street, across from the former YMCA, the replica has been put in the city garage on Foster Avenue for safekeeping. But Mayor Gary R. McCarthy expects it to have a new home soon.... The replica is about 8 1/2 feet

The old guard protectors of the Eagle award and past history and traditions are holding onto their own glory. Obdurate objections to a changing world will not do anybody any good, and may give some psychologists and ulcer doctors more work. Move with the times and find ways to make current challenges fit your involvement, hopefully to the overall benefit of all. As noted, life is seldom always fair. Whatever comes from all this, it can be positive or negative, however one chooses to view it. How will this affect any of us as time goes by. Our own Scouting accomplishments will

You can also have the Tigers lead grace to contribute to a shared meal experience. Duty to God, oh my! Keep it simple, make it fun! Rub a dub, dub, thanks for the grub!

I enjoy the international links. I'd love to visit some of the folks like skip someday. On a good day Scouting feels like a calling, on a bad day there are better things to do with my time but then I get sucked in my some scout that needs me and get all those positive vibes. My own sons have now aged out of the program after pretty good 'careers' I was pretty happy to be around to see a side of them I did not know existed. I now have to figure out the best place to put my energies in my (or a nearby) Troop. I also need to tend to the knitting at home with my 'Scout Widow' wife. If she wants to

Based on this, then I can certainly see a way for BSA to allow for "transfer credits" (and they might already do this) for any Scout that earned "stuff" outside of the United States but still within Scouting to obtain Eagle. For example, if she has satisfied the exact same leadership requirements in Canadian Scouts, then there is no reason IMO that she need duplicate them in BSA. I would assume that we would extend the same courtesy to a male scout that currently lives in England but that transfers to the United States at 16. Credit for requirements already accomplished.

I don't think there's one straight forward answer to that. partly I guess I can't imagine life without it. It's also fun. The stuff we get up to is just that, fun! The last camp I was on was quite relaxed in terms of program and we spent a weekend chewing the fat round the camp fire. Other times we've been climbing, canoeing, gliding, sailing. What's not to like? The kids are also great fun, they keep me young I think. They come and go. There are those that come along for a year or so and others that stick at it seemingly forever. And some ultimately do go from being those you helped

When one has the background I do, people would like my input into the program. I was all set to leave scouting many times throughout the past 45+ years and only flat-out quit when I was in Scouts as a youth. When my boy quit I was tempted to join him. When the troop's adult led policies were running rampant, I was tempted to quit. When I was asked to step down as SM, I was tempted to stay out of it. I have no skin in the game other than people (the Council this last time) asking me to do something. Then I stay on. I prefer doing my outdoors selfishly with my wife. We do a lot tog

Long and the short of it is...I enjoy it. Okay, sometimes it's frustrating, annoying, and stressful. I love seeing the going people grow in confidence, being brave, growing up, trying new things and doing the things they love. I'm not gonna lie, I feed off their enthusiasm and joy, I get a kick out of it if you like. There's the camaraderie with the other leaders, and yes, with the young people too. There is something magical about doing things together as a group. There's probably a bit of the Peter Pan in me that still enjoys things that still enjoys things I've done hundreds of times - wha

Well how old! It’s not like I remember the industrial revolution. My kids keep telling me I’m old, and my knees hurt on cold days. Isn’t that old enough? Barry

I think new parents need to be guided to useful things that don't interfere with running the Troop for at least 6 months after their son joins the Troop, ESPECIALLY the former Den Leaders. I was the Webelos Den leader for the tenure of my oldest son in Webelos, then I was the Webelos Den leader for the last year of my youngest son in Webelos (they are one year apart in school and Scouts). Our SM at the time knew to keep me diverted away from the Scouts in terms of meetings. He had me as Advancement chair, and it was a good way to observe the Troop, and still help out. There were a few times

It really pays off to have a close contact with the tribes. Our tribe up here is the Winnebago (Ho-Chunk) and they have been very gracious to our boys. Again a nearby reservation really makes a difference in one's outlook on the Indian culture. Even the Indian Ceremonial Program at the Wisconsin Dells (tourist trap) has gone away. It was once the main draw to the region. It's been replaced with amusement parks and water parks. It's really a shame to see it gone.

Our OA Lodge consults with the Seminole tribe and we try to make sure (some) of the clothes and dances are authentic. We often have representatives at ceremonies. But I have seen other lodges not treat Native American culture respectfully and I think eventually the whole thing will go away. But I have learned some fascinating things in OA (beadwork, how authentic Seminole shirts were made and how to make them) that was an enriching experience that I never would have know and I went to school with kids from the nearby reservation.

Yeah, I hear you on the pride issue. But I find it easy to swallow that pride when I'm trying to help out the boys. At least that's the self-justification I feed myself. I do find that the older I get the easier it is to take a pass on the pride issue. I ain't 17 anymore, it's been a while.

I have my pride. And there are times I like to practice my own scout-craft--I want to have fun too. But YES always a good sign. The older I get the more help I accept.

Oddly, that's what nearly every ambitious girl, atheist, (and in the late 90's, newly minted homosexual), and 18+ year-old says. They would like to be recognized for their work. Their claim is that, right now, you are being cheated, because your badge doesn't recognized what you've accomplished. It recognizes what you've accomplished, but only while being of a particular identity. The it's saying, "You did pretty good, for a boy." (Before anyone balks. Check that this isn't what you'd say about a GS/USA Gold awardee.) This isn't merely BSA's fault. GS/USA abandoned the "First Cl

Old Guard.... oh that brings back memories. I used the same term. We had an old guard cadre in the pack that was coming through the pack with younger sons after having "done it all" with the older sons. They were burned out and didn't want to do it anymore.....but somehow they could not let it go. Even later when they did let go and I agreed to help, they still didn't really let it go... and continued to not really help that much....and in my view their toxicity even hindered finding my replacement as CM when I was finally done.... some people wanted no part of it.....smart folks, thos

I once hammocked in a Tropical Storm with 35 to 45 mph gusts perpendicular to my hammock. I prayed real hard not to sway all the way into the trees. I actually fared better than the boys in tents. njdrt-rdr I recommend practcing rigging, knotting, and getting in the Hammock over a weekend at home. It is pretty hard to set up on a dark Friday night. Always embarrassing when a scout wanders over to help me out.

I haven't slept on a hammock in cold weather but I was intrigued about trying a hammock for sleeping. I'm a short really fat dude and didn't want to try one in public. we had an empty lean to at summer camp and I strung one up in there. Didn't want to have the boys watch me try and navigate a hammock for the first time or trying to roll out of the thing.....It was a bit rough for me to get out of. But OMG....I slept solid all night long and never woke up...that doesn't happen to me even sleeping on cot or a bunk...I loved it...

Really? Sitting around watching the adults cook is a fun program for Tigers? For me that would rank right up there with watching paint dry. When they're done eating, do they get to watch the adults clean up? When I taught Webelos overnight training for DL"s it was always interesting how just two people could lead the class and somehow breakfast just appeared, then lunch and then dinner. While one of us taught, the other did behind the scenes camp chores and we had an extensive discussion on this very topic. How, with just two people, one could maintain the attention and interest of

Yes it does. Have guys gotten their Eagle because they were In Eagle mills? Yes. That’s way different than breaking, not bending, the rules for this girl. It makes my accomplishment worthless because I worked 7 long years, lead a troop through four years as SPL and Jasm and [edit] they GAVE it to her because of her gender. That makes the award meaningless because they just given it away. If you work 80 hours a week for your money and I work 2 hours a week for the same pay is that fair? Do you not feel cheated? Cmon.

Well if we don't want men alone with girls, why allow women to be alone with boys? As I see it, the girls are not in the program yet, but their is already a double standard in how we treat them.

I'll be interested to see how single sex dens end up working out in practice in these early adopters. I'm assuming it will be a royal pain and we'll end up with coed dens all over the place.

Regarding two deep leadership, anyone notice the double standard? An all boys den only needs 'One registered leader and one other adult, one of which must be 21 years old" whereas an all girl den requires "One registered leader and one other adult, one of which must be 21 years old, and a Youth Protection trained adult female must be present." (bold for emphasis, underline in original) See the screen capture from the video.

You may be right, but I took it as sarcasm. Anything other wouldn't make sense.

Well if they're "just" dollars, I'd be happy to be the custodian of those dollars, if you're offering.

OK, I just have to say that your work to get to Eagle is obviously not meaningless and no one can take that experience or honor away from you. Also, there have likely been boys who have skirted the rules and been awarded Eagles in less than sterling fashion. I'm not saying it's common, but in the numbers of people in Scouting and the, er, variations in local Scouting, some people here and there probably have been given exceptions and lax standards, etc. Just because someone else had the rules bent does not diminish your accomplishment. I understand it will feel like that, but don't se

Slippery slopes on membership vs program requirements. To use sports as an analogy, we've decided to allow gay kids "play", gay adults "coach" in our sports league. That doesn't alter the rules of the game. Letting the Ireland family bully the BSA into changing program requirements is changing the rules for one "Player". Like if in soccer one player can use their hands and nobody else can. It breaks the game.

Terrible idea. Sorry, she's just not the right age at the right time. It sucks, but it is what it is. Eagle is not a measurement of being a good Scout or a good person, and she should be comfortable with the fact she is both of those things, but not an Eagle Scout. If they make this exception I'd be hard pressed to see how the flood gates of exceptions just bursts open.

One of the things I remember not only being taught when I did BA 22, but also taught when staffing JLT was "Counseling." I remember when I had issues, I went to the ASPL or SPL. They were my mentors, not the adults. Even when I was ASPL and acting SPL, it was my peers I went to, not the adults. @Col. Flagg brings up a very good point regarding adult intervention. Heck it is even discouraged that Scouts deal with discipline problems in their units anymore.

I'm calling foul at use of a certain word here (which is included in the thread title). These are NOT BSA rules. These are not BSA policy. These are safety pointers - suggestions for using a hammock safely and without doing damage to trees. No where in any of this is the word must or any other word that would require you to follow these pointers. Everything is written on a "should" basis. We spend more than enough time going back of forth on actual rules and policies. Can we stop getting people all hyped up over things that are not intended to be policy or rules?

Old fat middle aged men struggling to get our of a hammock look remarkably like a turtle trapped on his back....anything for the enjoyment of the lads.

I would think not a problem ... for a Turtle.

As an Arab American who feels that half of the country's problems stem from men unwilling to greet one another with a holy kiss, I'll comment no more.

I put in a bit of a snarky response, but coming from @qwazse I took it as a friendly poke.