MattR

Welcome to the forum, @roberthynesii

I think this is the real issue, only because I've been there before. They just went with the normal program and older scouts don't really do much strongly suggests to me that starting a crew won't solve the problem. The scouts of a crew should be able to lead the crew by themselves but it appears that these scouts can't. Otherwise they wouldn't have gone with the normal program and they would be helping out at meetings. So, one solution is to develop leadership in this age group. This might require the adults to learn some new things as well.

@CodyMiller351, welcome to the forum. Woodbadge at 19? I'd say no. There are better ways to spend your time. At least for now. One of my concerns with eagle scouts that come on as ASM's is that they don't always understand the difference between being an adult and being a scout. The adult's job is very different from being a scout. There's no doubt you have all the outdoor skills nailed down but there's a lot more going on than that. Another thing you likely have is a ton of enthusiasm and that's great. My suggestion would be to study up on how a great troop runs (something wood badge won't cover). Don't assume that your troop does it right. Most troops don't. Go to ebay and buy old copies of anything that Bill Hillcourt wrote and read them. Ask questions here. Get a vision. Figure out how you can help scouting. Then do it. After you've done that for a few years then you might get something out of what wood badge is trying to teach you. If, on the other hand, you take wood badge now, without knowing what a great troop looks like, you'll probably just end up with a bunch of useless ticket items. I know from experience.

I think it's the start of a great project. However, I don't know the details. When we see a project that seems light on leadership (when someone says routine labor) we start asking for details. We also encourage the scout to go back to the recipient of the project and ask for more. Not just more work but how to make it better. In the case of the lego kits, let's say two kids are playing with their kit right next to each other. The kits will get all mixed up. What's a solution to that problem? Also, he has the instructions, but does he have electronic versions for when they get destroyed? Are the instruction appropriate for all of the children at this facility? For example, kids that are dyslexic would likely appreciate instructions in a bigger format. Are the kits in their original boxes, which will get destroyed, or will they be in small tubs? Where will the tubs be stored and how will the children know what they're building? Any project can be made more complex by just scaling it up. 50 kits is nice, but go through your neighborhood and do a lego drive. You'll have 500 kits. Now what? Do this for 500 kits and you have a major project that is really cool. The bottom line here is talk to someone that works with these children to figure out how to make this work for them. I am surprised that the troop was one gate keeper on ideas. Scouts in my troop present to the committee and the committee helps dig in to understand, all with the goal of helping the scout come up with a good project. There is a lot of changing minds going on as we dig deeper. And he likely gave up, clammed up, and that was it. I'd suggest finding an adult that can coach him through this. These are the guys that usually get the mentor's pins.

I'm confused. Why doesn't the SM just put a stop to it and tell these people they're no longer invited?

@Vanhall21, welcome. Do you by any chance mean the cub master and/or committee chair? Or the previous den leader and his wife became cub master and committee chair? The term den leader doesn't make sense in this context. If these people are not the cub master/committee chair then that's who you should talk to about these people being a problem. If these people are the cub master and committee chair then that's a much messier situation. If you could clarify that would help us understand. BTW, your husband is great for taking on being a den leader.

@Momleader, I suspect you can safely ignore this. Here's another DE story just to amuse you. I'm the district camping chair. We made reservations for our winter campout and have, since the 70's, always looked for the coldest, snowiest place we could find. Yesterday our DE said our reservation was cancelled and we had to do it at the council camp, where it has never been. I made a few phone calls today. Turns out the council is broke, has not paid last year's bill, and is just trying to stiff these people, the neighboring council. We're going to ignore the DE and have all troops write checks to a 3rd party that we can trust to make the payments. There are several companies that won't do business with our council anymore. If anyone in the council complains we'll open up the books, so to speak. As I said, just ignore them. You're providing a great program for your pack. Keep up the good work.

I think the fitness standard should be for one to do their best. And the only way to do that is to do something one enjoys. For some reason I do not like anything with reps. I would much rather go for a bike ride or a hike. For those that like doing reps, I'm jealous.

Thank you, @qwazse. Actually, I've been lurking for some time and just decided to help out.

@TEP, welcome to the forum. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that your son should have or get what's called a blue card (and it's blue!) that has a record of what your son did complete at summer camp. When he gives that to the next counselor that counselor will continue marking requirements as done. He should have received one from summer camp but many camps don't fill these out. In that case he'll need to go to his scoutmaster to get it. And while he's there he can ask about finding the next counselor. The intent of the merit badges is that the scout does the bulk of finding and contacting the counselors. The best thing you can do is help him learn the process and encourage him to do it. And making phone calls to someone a scout doesn't know is really hard, but a great skill for them to learn. Good luck!

That always sucks when you can't go out happy. However, it's much better to go out discouraged rather than burning bridges and absolutely angry. Enjoy the break. You'll find other things to help with.

I've used that exact same phrase. I've even told my SPL it was his decision on whether I drove a scout home. Nobody took me up on it but everyone knew who made the decisions after that. But when I was a new SM I wouldn't have done that. It took some time to be comfortable being the disciplinarian. This is a hard situation to deal with and a rude one for a new SM. I understand what you're saying, asking about where this problem came from, but for a new SM I can also see it being read wrong. Unfortunately, I've also noticed that setting the bar to some scouts has the added caveat "when adults are around." There's a certain Machiavellian mindset for some scouts that the scout oath and law just doesn't penetrate. When someone is teasing a kid to the point of crying then that's a red flag. One scout told me that an older scout told him that swearing was okay when adults weren't around. In another thread I mentioned the scouts that had to be disqualified for cheating at the camporee. Two of them have been a thorn since they joined the troop (and one of them was the source of the adult dependent swearing). I'd like to believe that the adults and I kept them in check but I suspect it's just a game for them. None of the other older scouts have anything to do with them and what that usually means is these other scouts have enough confidence in their own character that it's just simpler to stay away. But back to this situation. My assumption is that the SPL is the real problem and the rest of the PLC are watching and learning. There might be another one or two that provide an echo. I don't know the history of the SPL. It could be he saw someone at school do this and he's just trying it out or he's been a turd in the troop for a long time and he plays by his own rules. Another question I'd ask is how often do scouts deal with behavior problems? That has always been a problem in my troop. Nobody wants to rock the boat and there's no doubt that's the source of the "only when the adults are around" caveat. I would really like to know how to develop that. Given the peer pressure these scouts are suffering at this age I don't know how to encourage the scouts to stand up to problems like this.

It seems to me you're making some assumptions. It could also be that this is a first incident of this magnitude. The PLC is just 12-13 years old. It could be that the previous SM was the only one that would be the disciplinarian. It certainly was when I was SM. Nobody else wanted to be the bad guy. So when I left guess what happened. "The new guy won't mind."

Welcome to the forum @Bside. Sorry it has to be under such circumstances. I would not have the SPL talk in front of the troop. In fact, I'm not sure I'd start with a list of punishments. The real issue is whether the scouts understand they did something (many things) wrong and not just that they got caught. For any scout that just thinks he got caught I'd fire him. But I would give him a chance to figure that out. I'd start with sitting down with all the scouts that were there except for the one scout that took the brunt of the bad character. I'd start by reviewing exactly what happened in as much detail as possible. They'd likely really feel the pain as an adult asked them why a scout rubbed his crotch on the boy's neck. Once that was all out we'd talk about each point of the scout law and ask them how what they did represents that. Then I'd ask them if they think they need to make things right. If, and I really would hope this doesn't happen, they said it was all in good fun, I'd fire the lot of them. If, however, they show some remorse, I'd ask them how they're going to make it right. Then I'd keep my mouth shut and listen. Maybe I'd encourage them to think more and talk about it. Anyway, let them come up with a plan. If you think it's a bit light then sure, add some time or whatever. It would be great if they volunteer to talk to the rest of the troop but I wouldn't make them. Public punishment is frowned on and your making them do that is really nothing more than punishment. @Jameson76's idea is also an option. The fact that these scouts think they're above it all is a red flag to me. One other thing to think about is that some of the scouts were likely just following along. As guilty as they are for not standing up to the SPL, they might see what they did as wrong.

I grew up with an external frame pack. Bought an internal when they first came out. Bought a second one years later. Finally went back to an external pack. I like the external packs better. The internal frame packs are mostly a duffel bag with nice straps. The result, looking down, is a round cross section. An external pack is more rectangular. On the whole the center of mass is closer to my back and much less tiresome to carry all day. They're also easier to pack. There are more pockets so everything has it's place. A bear canister they can take up the entire inside of an internal pack. I can lash it to my frame, under the pack. I'm not saying they're perfect but I wish there were more companies making them. They are cheaper than internal packs. I also think both styles are starting to merge. As the frames get a bit more sturdy on the internals then some of the issues I have with them might go away. A carbon fiber frame that was built for my back would be the ticket.

I have a shirt with no position patch. If people have to look at my uniform to see what I do then they can just as easily ask me. Usually I'm right there.

I took WB. It was neither great nor a complete waste. More like a disappointment after all the hype. In hindsight I'd say WB is about how to implement a vision. If you know where you want to be then WB provides tools to get there. That's fine but it's not really specific to scouting. Plenty of people have said they've seen this material elsewhere. The two weekend training I'd rather see is the vision of running a pack, troop, or crew, and how to solve the typical problems you run into. If the trainers were seeing how their training was helping units then they'd be much less likely to see WB as the goal. Training should never be a goal, the goal should be people that successfully use the training. If WB was much better than anything else then there would be feedback on how units were doing better. JTE is supposed to be that feedback. Originally the metrics used in JTE were going to get harder as units got better. I haven't really seen that so I assume that units are not generally getting better. The bottom line is good units are figuring it out on their own.

Nope. It's my understanding that expiration doesn't mean unhealthy for anything the food bank will accept.

Welcome to the forum, @danw.

Google "Hebrew National hot dog commercial" The punch line is "We answer to a higher authority" than the FDA

I'm a push mower parent. Not nearly as loud or obnoxious as a lawnmower parent and I can also cut the lawn at 7am on a Sunday and not bother the neighbors.

@scotteg83, you have an opportunity to start fresh and not fight old baggage and old/wrong perceptions. This has nothing to do with girls. So first of all, this could be a lot of fun. I think the challenge is coming up with a small, tight, easily understood list of guidelines that everyone, scouts and adults, will respect. That will make the communication and training of all these new scouts and adults much simpler. Ideas these guidelines might cover, in no particular order: The separation of what the adults and scouts are responsible for. What the adults should and should not do. Same for scouts. How problems are solved. The process for defining/changing the calendar. Types and rough amounts of events? Challenging, fun, silly, advancement, service, fundraising ... The process for handling failure, both for the adults and scouts. (and what failure is, how to identify, review in general) The aim of scouting, in much clearer words than the BSA's (it better include fun) How you handle the situation where adults want to step in and scouts want to step back. How you handle the situation where the older scouts just don't want to do anything challenging.

You could easily use the forum titled "Girl Scouting"

Rather amusing that the one form of communication that's a huge no-no, is making a phone call (it's one-one). And yet we all managed to deal with those as kids.

@Zebra132, not sure if grumpy is the right word, but I'm certainly old. There are lots of discussions on this forum about what an Eagle scout should be. It's mostly about character. There are also lots of discussions about not adding requirements. Unfortunately, these two ideas create a lot of tension because what we think an eagle scout should be has little to do with the requirements. The requirements are very concrete whereas character is not. Courteous and kind and putting the needs of others is very subjective whereas 20 nights camping only brings up conflict when the idea of sleeping in a cabin or a lock in is brought up. I once said a scout had to be active in my troop to advance. There was a very clear description of what active meant. One scout didn't care for it and mom took it to council. I was, after all, adding requirements. They gave him his eagle. They said he only needed to be active for 6 months. So, in your case, has this boy's girl friend not been pregnant for 6 months while he was a life scout? I know, it sounds insanely stupid to phrase it that way but that's what eagle is. It certainly sounds a lot better to say a scoutmaster conference can not include retesting a scout on skills but it's essentially the same thing. It's a simple algorithm with little room for interpretation. And I kind of get it. I see stories where others were unreasonable about how they interpreted the rules. I was always reasonable . Rules rarely leave room for interpretation and character is rarely black and white. A recent example I've run into is where I had to disqualify a "patrol" for cheating on a competition at the camporee. The 2 previous SPL's along with the current one and a couple of other older scouts took the place of one of the regular patrols at the final competition (where the overall wining patrol was decided). That alone would be nothing but an opportunity to teach some scouts about playing fair. What bothered me was that when 4 adults talked to them they just didn't see how what they did could be considered cheating. For a half hour we tried to explain this and they didn't get it. They said all the troops did this. So I went and talked to the other troops and, in fact, none of them cheated. They still didn't accept it. I have never run into this type of situation where a group of scouts, all of which will soon be eagle, just couldn't grasp what most cub scouts understand. So I really have to ask myself what eagle is worth. If your scout does right by his baby and is otherwise a good scout in the troop then I'd take him over the scouts in my troop. We won't know for some time, though. A friend of mine kept reminding me that we're playing a long game. We hope they get it figured out in 10 or 20 years from now. Will the scouts in my troop come back in 1, 5, or 10 years from now and realize they were cheating? If so, I won. If not, I wasted my time. Either way, it has little to do with that patch with the bird on it.