MattR

You need to go back to school, fred. There are 3 bullet points. To everyone else, all I can say is college was good for me, and I'm not even a girl. I think it's fair to say that college is like a lot of things, you get out of it what you put into it. (Eagle, anyone?) A lot of students have always looked at school as something to put up with. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised to see that they don't get much out of it. Then there are the people that find something they really enjoy learning about and get a lot out of college. Doesn't it always get back to one's attitude? That said, some coaching about job expectations and debt loads, up front, would be a wise thing for students to hear. To be honest, I never could stand scouts whose attitude about Eagle was just put up with it and get the piece of paper. I'm thinking I should change my approach. Some scouts have the right attitude and some don't. Kind of like college.

Welcome to the forum, @BillG. If you have the backstory you may as well tell all of us, as there is some doubt about whether this will work.

Welcome to the forum, @2dGenSM. It sounds like a difficult situation. Sounds like you put your heart into it and there's not much support. To be honest, if you were the longest running SM in some time at 2 1/2 years then I have a hunch something else is missing. I mean, why do SMs get burned out so quickly? Is this why you're moving on to another troop?

Just as soon as trout taste bad.

I tried something similar a very long time ago and the results were not good. At best, there was one or two scouts that could lead before and the rest were struggling. Now the rest don't need to struggle anymore. In other words, it doesn't encourage scouts to lead. I see the problem as the scouts do not have the correct leadership skills, because they've never really led, and therefore making it fun for them will not teach them to lead. The specific leadership skill that I'm thinking of is being prepared, i.e., making a plan. That just takes time, grit, and focus. I don't even care if the scouts follow the plan but if they have one then they have enough of an idea of what's coming next and can then work on all the other things they learn at nylt. The quality of their leadership is almost always related to how well thought out the event is. The eagle project is one example of where we force scouts to have a plan with enough detail that they can give it to someone else to run. Not that they'd ever do that but it forces the scouts to think of the sequence. Getting back to patrol method, I'd rather see a sequence of challenges for developing leadership skills. Kind of like ranks. Start small and build it up. Planning, communication, feedback, dealing with negative scouts. All those things would help a lot. I still remember reading the scout handbook for the first time and wondering if I could get to Tenderfoot. First class was so far advanced I was afraid to even think about how bad I'd do. The outdoor skills were very well laid out. The leadership skills were/are just a mystery.

Try synonyms for scout. You could also go with a Western theme. Replace troop with tribe. Patrol with band. Pioneers. Adventurer for explorer. Vanguard for PLC. Trapper. Wolf. Bear. Buffalo. And something outlandish for the award, like the Distinguished Silver Pelt with Crossed Talons. Or just the name of a bird of prey. Silver Hawk? Something a kid could understand.

@cocomax makes a good point. I think we should rename Patrol Method with Scout Ownership. If they want to own it then the patrol method enables them. If they don't want to own it then patrol method will not encourage leadership. One thing that really gets in the way of ownership is what @SSScout mentioned recently about planning (something about failing to plan is a plan for failure). Planning is nitty gritty work that involves thinking of all the details. It's a grind for the scouts. Coming up with the idea is much easier than making it happen. Again, I'd rather see more support for adults to teach this skill. Leadership may be a lot more than planning but having a plan sure makes leadership easier.

Ah, thank you. It's great that your son is so enthusiastic. On the other hand, there's more to scouts than advancement. So maybe channeling that enthusiasm in a different direction might help. One thing this patrol seems to be missing is some scout leadership, PA or no. Either a patrol leader or troop guide should be running the patrol, not an adult. Since your son is so much ahead of the rest of his patrol maybe he could be part of that leadership. Or maybe he could be the assistant patrol leader to the patrol leader or troop guide. It would give him a great opportunity. It would also get the adult back to being an advisor and not the leader.

Welcome to the forum, @Maxwell17. What's a PA?

It seems to me there's a problem when we're trying to define the meaning of words that are used to define what we're doing. Run vs lead vs led vs .... How about this: The job of the adults is to make the boys successful, where success is described as growing towards the ideals of scouting. If the scouts are taking on more responsibility then we're doing something right. A 12 year old PL is going to have a different definition of success compared to a 17 year old PL. I just got back from a backpacking trip with the scouts. One of the older scouts, who is 17.5, I met at a store a week ago and asked him if he'd like to go. He went, he was really a lot of help, and it was wonderful to see him help out. This same scout earned eagle when he was 14 and was a real pain in the butt. He was obnoxious and nobody really liked him as a leader but he did all the work and did a great eagle project. He kept coming by and I kept trying to get him interested but it took until last week before he took the bait. We did talk at one point and I told him how happy I was to see him. He told me he was a real butt when he was younger and apologized for that. We both agreed he had learned a lot. I don't know where this story fits in with run vs lead vs adult vs scout but it just seems like I did the right thing. On another topic, someone mentioned that woodbadge is based on what Bill Hillcourt set up years ago. I heard a different story. An old guy in my town went to a woodbadge class run by Hillcourt and the first thing Hillcourt did when he showed up was to tell everyone to ignore the flip charts and everything they were told. He then proceeded to focus on fun with a purpose. Each patrol made games based on skills found in various scout manuals. Then everyone played the games. That was it.

Maybe it's too easy to blame the parents on this. If you look at advancement resources vs outdoor fun resources the focus is clearly on advancement. There are pages of requirements. Manuals for judging the advancement. Arguments all over the place regarding examples of people doing things wrong. Then look at how to put on a fun, outdoor program and there isn't nearly as much. You don't even need to buy anything to keep it organized like the back of the scout handbook, no requirements to learn planning, no levels of learning how to make a skill into a fun activity. Unlike passing first aid or cooking, where there are levels and ranks to work up through, the fun things are just alluded too. Maybe that's why new parents with little experience move towards advancement, it's all laid out for them.

@Saltface and @Chris1, I sent you a PM.

Welcome to the forum! And thanks for the enthusiasm.

Holy Tintinnabulation, Batman! Good news on the grandson and your good health.

This is what I printed from their instructions. I must admit, the one they emailed to me is identical except that it has an expiration date. Guess what? my.scouting.org has bugs in it! Who would have thought?

I printed off the certificate and it clearly says "does NOT expire."

Welcome to the forum, @ncscouterz.

Welcome to the forum @mac266

Considering the 9 times I've take the previous versions every other year, it was kind of a sleeper.

Just to clarify what Jameson76 said. No, his eagle project is independent of the 6 months. He can take as long as he wants, as long as it's done before his 18th birthday. Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. He could complete all of his Eagle requirements in the 6 month minimum except for the last one, which is the board of review. BTW, that one does not need to be completed before his 18th birthday but it does need to be before 3 months after his 18th birthday. The reason for the 3 months is because it can take a month to set it all up and 3 is plenty of overhead. So, to answer your question, probably no.

Welcome to the forum, @MsAinGH.

Turns out the SE took care of it for me. The entire council staff had a sit down. Apparently the volunteers are important customers. Things have improved dramatically in the past week. Thanks for asking.

This is what I wish the BSA would focus on. I'd rather see them bet the farm on better training. If there's something that will increase membership it will be helping scouters, parents, and the community better understand the program. Axe and GPS skills are important but just understanding the basics is also important. The current model the BSA uses for training is based on the assumption that there are plenty of adults with plenty of outdoor and scouting experience. i.e., all they need to do is go over some BSA specific safety issues and they're good to run a program. Come up with a training program that solves this problem and make an issue of Scouter magazine about that. @qwazse has suggested ranks for adults and why not? Why not put parents in their own patrols to teach them about patrol method? I wonder if the whole push on family scouting isn't about the lack of skills that many adults have. I happen to think it's a half baked idea but there is something to think about. If the patrol method was working and patrols were independent then the adults could learn at the same time as the scouts and stay out of their way. For those that really don't want to camp put them in their own patrol. Make it official so every parent sees that what the PL is supposed to do and those troops that don't have PLs might just change.

Welcome to the forum, @DaBear-c5-324-15

Hi @Jishusa, welcome to the forum. While I'm not so sure about having the OA scouts decide that a scout must wait a month to try again, the idea of getting feedback from them is a very good idea. I've had scouts tell me, after an election went a completely different way then I thought, that a scout was very different when no adults were around. The best judge of a scout is the other scouts. They know who is lazy, who is a friend to the loner kid, who is selfish, who doesn't mind cleaning, who can be goofy and serious at the right times, .... I'd like to hear what other scouts have to say about a scout as much or more than what a scout has to say about himself. That said, the SM still should make the final call on this.