MattR

Welcome to the forum @SCCMatthew.

Welcome to the forum, @sandlime. Good question. Maybe someone else can help with that.

Someone should talk about the cost of those MBs. $300 camp for 4 MBs is $75/MB. That's a lot, and probably the low end given how many partials scouts get. I wonder how many parents would think that's a good deal. Maybe bring up the whole thrifty thing and show the scouts how to call a counselor. Anyway, I agree. A few classes for the activities requiring certification to teach. Make the rest fun. Camps could help patrols find activities. That would be good.

I agree with CalicoPenn that the rules are for those without common sense. Summer camps used to fire off a cannon with a blank to wake everyone up, until some fool decided to stand right in front of the cannon and the wad killed him. One solution to this, that the BSA implemented, is to ban all cannons. Another would be to implement some training. The first is easy and the second takes some effort. If that's all there is to it then the first is the obvious choice. But I think there's more to this. There's talk about philosophy of hazing or shooting at a human likeness. There's even a philosophy behind safety. But there's another philosophy that's being ignored. Namely, letting scouts take a risk. Letting them get closer to the edge is where they learn. I'm fully in favor of discussing gun safety and then letting a scout shoot a gun safely because it brings the scout closer to the edge. He might do something stupid. He might point an unloaded gun back towards where other people are. If he does there's going to be a teachable moment when the ranger master chews him a new orifice. (Been there. Done that.) I do not like the "smoke shifters are hazing" rules because there is a line that is a teachable moment that we can't use. Stay on one side of the line and it's harmless fun. Cross the line and a scout is miserable. Getting close or even crossing the line is a teachable moment. Not allowing the scouts to get at anywhere near that line is just wasting opportunity and denying fun. Sure, they can have fun doing something else, but most likely it won't come with that teachable moment. And it's getting worse. Not allowing scouts to do any events without adults around is the same thing. If the scouts are truly responsible then they are closer to the line. The only way to allow that is to keep the adults away. There is a risk, just like shooting a cannon. One option is to not allow it and the other is to create training to support it. There is a risk that things can go wrong. Right now the rules are fairly vague as to what it means to have an adult around. The BSA will not relax those rules. What happens when someone says scouts can no longer cook on their own because some scout got burned starting a grease fire? The phrase fun with a purpose should be considered with the idea of risk in mind. Fun involves risk. Competition, adventure, or trying anything new all involve risk and it's all fun. Maybe the purpose is to teach scouts how to minimize that risk. The scout motto is about minimizing risk. We want them to learn how to make good decisions. That's mostly about dealing with risk. I understand that some things are too risky. I'm fine with requiring scouts to be top roped while climbing. But can the BSA at least try and quantify some of these risks, rather than just say no risk is allowed? Honestly, how many scouts have been hurt by electric screwdrivers? If there really is an issue then make a 5 minute video the scouts can watch.

I use algebra all the time. I would have used calculus or relativity theory as better examples. But your point is still valid. It creates an environment where the real learning happens.

Welcome to the forum, @CanyonCowboy.

Call the Longs Peak Council or Denver Area Council and see what they have. I know Longs Peak runs something similar to Philmont. They don't have as many activities but they have better mountains. It's called Elk Horn. The Denver Area Council has something called Camp Tahosa. If you drive out I-80 you'll go right by both of them. Just don't take I 76.

I spent the past couple of days with some scouts from Israel. They do things very differently than we do and some of it is very impressive. Here's my understanding of their program. Scouting in Israel goes from 4th grade through 12th grade. There is only one program. So no cubs, just scouts. It's essentially our webelos and scouts combined. The scouts I talked to said that scouts is very popular in Israel. There are very few adults involved. My impression is it's somewhat like the venturing model where the adults are advisors at best but mostly take care of support. Note that the venturing model assumes older scouts, 19-21, whereas the Israeli model is doing this with 16-18 year old scouts. A big difference is that adults are never around for more than about 6 years. They typically start around age 24 and are gone by 30. I'm not sure but I think they're paid. Probably not much and that might be part of why they leave. There are no ranks. I didn't hear anything about badges. I'm under the impression that requirements are a lot fuzzier than what we're used to. There is a book of skills and characteristics that scouts should work on but the program is not defined nearly as in as much detail as what we get with ranks and merit badges. The scouts that lead get to decide what it is they will cover. A unit is called a tribe and is much larger than what we're used to. One scout I talked to came from a tribe with about 700 scouts. That is not a typo. They all said that's typical. That means about 100 scouts per grade level (everything is by grade, age was never mentioned). Each grade from 4th to 9th is broken into what I'd call patrols of about 10 scouts. Rough guess is about 50 patrols in a tribe. The leaders of these patrols are the older scouts (10th - 12th grade). These leaders are grouped into teams and those teams are led by the oldest scouts. I think they're all called counselors. Each counselor decides the program for their patrol. They need approval from the older scouts that are above them. Something to think about is that with so many scouts they can't meet as a single unit. Everything has to be by patrol. I'm under the impression that there are about a dozen adults helping with each tribe. Think of it, 12 adults for 700 scouts. They're job is mostly associated with money, so gear, dues, making reservations. Adults can get involved in training the older scouts and advising the oldest scouts. They can disapprove plans from the older scouts. To put it bluntly, the scouts own it. My visitors all made comments about how they wouldn't want to be in the BSA because they can't see how they could lead the way they are used to. My visitors thought the BSA's summer camps with buildings and dining halls were preventing the best part of scouts, namely building their own. They got really excited about describing pioneering structures for summer camp. They prefer to start with an empty field and a pile of poles and rope. The outdoors is not nearly as big a component in Israeli scouts compared to the BSA. Given the population density in Israel it makes sense. I talked to them about some of the high adventure trips I've done with my troop and they thought that was really cool. The thing that impressed me the most about these scouts is their confidence at leadership. While they were typical, forgetful teenagers, they could lead. Their leadership development program seems much stronger than ours. I believe everyone goes through it. It starts in 9th grade with training. In 10th through 12th grade it's full time and takes on more and more. They must lead. There is no troop program that can bail them out. There are no den leaders or ASMs to pick up the slack. These positions are mostly handled by the 12th graders. Everyone knows they must lead when they hit 10th grade. Compare that to the BSA's program where training is a week at best and minimally requires 16 months, which can be such things as bugler or historian, which are less about leadership and more about responsibility. I'm sure that the good SPLs from the BSA are as good as these scouts, but all of their scouts go through this leadership development while few boy scouts go through the best of the BSA's leadership program. They seem to understand how to implement scout led better than we do. I may be missing some important details but I was impressed. All the things I've grown uncomfortable with in the BSA, focus on advancement and adults that won't step back, have been easily dealt with. The biggest problem I have with it is I wouldn't be allowed to go camping with them. For the betterment of our program I could live with that.

Hi and welcome to the forum, @seaoat. Your post is a testimony to what scouting is about.

I suspect the toilet paper does not shred. I once heard of putting the flour in socks and it just works its way through the sock, leaving a white spot on the person that was hit. But there's only one way to figure this out!

What is the purpose of playing in mud?

Don't over think this. After 4 weeks the camp staff wanted to go to a dance. The other issues are mistakes that should be brought up with the council. It sounds like they had a new camp director that didn't have much experience. Or maybe they just wanted to mix things up and it flopped. Maybe the underlying issue is a low salary for those in charge and they're getting people that just don't get it.

2011 http://www.gazette.net/stories/05182011/olnenew201953_32535.php 2015 https://issuu.com/thegazette/docs/rockville_052015

yes. I had 30 years between ordeal and brotherhood. I did brotherhood with my son. There were no records so they just had to believe me.

One step further: skip the paper and just put it over a burner for about a minute, then remove it so the ash doesn't fall into the burner. It still takes 20 minutes. Put aluminum foil on the ground if there is any moisture in it. Any water will put the coals out. If it's at all windy we put our DOs in fire barrels. I modify the dia +/- 3 for cake-ish things. It needs much more top heat. Rim the lid with briquettes plus 2 or 3 in the middle. Only put 7 or 8 underneath. Now I'm hungry.

Remember, these are the parents of the scouts in your troop. Reason has no place at the table. 3 weeks before it's due I'd start setting up lap tops at meetings and reiterating the consequences. If you talk about it every week from now till then you will just condition them to ignore you. So, be prepared for the ensuing chaos 😀

Could be a bit of work but: there's a map with cities, train tracks, major roads, and rivers. Between each city and along each road, train, and river there is also a time it takes to get from city to city along that method of travel. Now the fun part. Break the scouts into teams and give all the teams a place where they start and a couple of cities where a treasure is to be found. Their goals is to find a quick route from start to collect each treasure. So take the road to city X, then take a train to city Y, then grab the treasure, then take the boat to city Z and get the second treasure.... The team with the fastest route wins. They will have to study the map to figure out the best route. Play a couple of games of this and they'll learn the major cities and routes. You can even put in hiking trails. Put a treasure in a big lake, make them write down a list of what they need to bring (scuba gear!), and the amount of complexity can be as big as their age can deal with.

Especially if it's wicked cold I'll change to clean and dry clothes for bed. Sure, it sucks for a minute while you change but it's much warmer than sleeping in damp clothes.

I wish the SM minute idea applied to merit badges (other than safety issues). You have one minute to discuss careers. One minute to discuss the food pyramid. That's all they'll listen to anyway. Safety is different. Besides, all you have to do is talk about how you can die doing something stupid and they'll pay attention. Good point. If merit badge books came with examples of ideas of these kinds of things then that would be a profound change. First of all, scouts would actually read the books! If the scout planning books did the same thing it would also help. I like coming up with ideas like this but it is work. A few scouts have the imagination to do this but most don't. Most adults don't like it either. I made a whole camporee out of activities like this and the response was very good. In all honesty, a one day course on making the fun in fun with a purpose would be good. Tell them the basics in a half hour and then spend the rest of the day making the games and then playing them. Especially if there's a stream or rock out cropping or a bunch of trees or pile of snow or a hill that you can slide on or .... My recipe was always a planned activity in the morning and free time in the afternoon. Very few scouts will hang out in their tents. I've had so many scouts tell me the free time was some of the best fun they had.

More doing seems to be a common thread. And yet, the BSA is filling up on requirements the boys just don't care about. By boy behavior do you mean roughhousing? Or is it more than that? I've seen that they can't elucidate on any conflict. Their emotions take over and then the talking stops. It could be good for problem solving that needs to get done right now but they need lots of practice at dealing with people problems. And many parents just won't let them deal with those problems. Does the BSA do a better job than at schools? So is the BSA encouraging any of this? Class rooms for MB fairs. Individual advancement is not team based. The shortest path syndrome makes planning really hard for them. Consequently the easiest meeting to plan is ... some older scout standing up front reading out of a book. I think this is important. Is risk a good motivator? I'm not talking about class 5 rapids but it could be as simple as hiking up a hill to get a good view, without the adults around. Does the BSA encourage risk taking? A lot of parents block it. Advancement is the antithesis of risk or adventure. Eagle bling is attractive but that's it. I certainly would like to hear from more people because these are good points.

Or maybe it's a generation of girls that never went outdoors when they were young and just don't like dirt. I know plenty of women my age that did a lot of camping and canoeing when they were younger but those that are 15 years younger didn't do nearly as much.

@cocomax, do you want this as a new thread? You'll likely need a couple of women if they're not related to any of the girls.

How about a discussion regarding what boys need more of as opposed to what they need less of (i.e., girls). The threads about girls are mostly stuck on boys need less girls around. That's a negative. What are the things the boys need more of? What is it in the BSA program that helps boys? And please don't say boys need there to be no girls. I'll start. One thing I read is that boys learn much better when doing things then, say, sitting in a class where they need to pay attention. So, all the describe, discuss, and explain in MBs are a huge waste for most boys. The boys need more opportunity to do and either fail or succeed. The other thing I've seen working with the boys is they need a purpose. I've seen huge changes in a boy when he goes from not having a purpose to having one. The biggest loss in older scouts comes from boys that don't have a purpose. But they need to find that purpose on their own. I can't tell them what to do. A suggestion might work but more likely they'll bounce about till they find something that fits. Maybe another way of saying that is boys don't respond well to external motivation nearly as well as internal motivation. If so then maybe they need more opportunity to find their purpose in a troop? I don't know. Motivating teenage boys is off the charts hard so I doubt if anyone has an easy answer for that. But I'm listening.

Time to be proactive and ask those that run the EBORs. At the same time have the scout document specifically what he's done for leadership. It would be a lot better to address this issue now than wait until the EBOR. We've seen a lot of messed up scenarios on this forum. There shouldn't be any extra rules but ....

And from us they get all y'all. I once made fun of someone that said y'all and I was corrected: English doesn't contain a second person plural pronoun. However, we can blame those on the other side of the pond, so it's all good . I did need an explanation of the difference between y'all and all y'all. I don't know of any language that distinguishes between a few and a bunch, so I think they're just messing with us.