MattR

A lot of people don't realize this but if you read the original Hebrew, when Moses received the tablets that God had written the commandments on, there were 11. After Moses broke and then rewrote the commandments he dropped one. First of all, this illustrates that man wrote the 10 commandments and not God. Also, the one that was dropped was "Thou shalt not argue about religion, it just pisseth me off when you get so angry about what should be about love."

I agree with with the quote @Thunderbird found. Anything can scale up to the point of requiring leadership. Planting 6 flowers is easy. Planting 600 requires leadership. I suppose it's difficult to measure leadership. At least one way is to ask what would happen if the leader wasn't there. In this case a Webelos scout could have decided the flag pole needed flowers, asked mom to buy a pack of 6, and planted them. So what did the scout in your example provide? All he did was make a task list that was completely unnecessary. Another way of looking at a project is asking how much preparation went into it. We just rejected a project that involved painting stain onto a wood shack. The stain and brushes were provided. All the scout had to do was get the labor to show up. We asked the scout to ask the benefactor if there weren't more things that needed to be done in the area around the shack. It turns out they have drainage issues. That requires figuring out possible solutions, talking to the city about the best way to solve the problem, working with the benefactor, asking for donations. It's substantial. And the shack will get stained. There's also vision. The vision is typically solving some problem. The plan fills in the details of how to solve the problem. In the flower planting case there really aren't any details to fill in. If the vision is to plant flowers than I'd ask why? If the vision is to make the landscaping look nicer than it's easy to show that the plan, adding some flowers, isn't going to have much impact. But doing a landscape design of the entire area around the flagpole is much more substantial. We have run into many project proposals that just didn't have much to them. In every case we've been able to work with the scout to expand the vision to be something they were proud of. The too simple proposals are usually just a case of a scout not caring and wanting to be done with it. And that's a good description of a project that has no leadership.

It was fun! We ended up using two 8' 2x3's along with two 4' round fence poles (about 2" diameter) we found at camp. Turns out lashing rectangular lumber together is really hard so we suggested making a pointy ladder instead. 2 scouts pull and one rides. All of the 2x3's had nice rounded ends by the end of the day. A lot of scouts also learned the difference between tight lashings and not. Some learned that a diagonal lashing without fraps is close to worthless. Only one scout that was riding got run over by his own pullers (the lashes fell apart). We ran 4 patrols at a time and there were about 4 more stations to do after the travois. We had 15 out of 29 patrols do the race. Given how busy they were until that point that was fairly good. (At 6:50 this morning there was nobody awake.) In the morning there were 10 different events that each patrol could do to collect points. Archery, tomahawk, fry bread, first aid, even climbing for scouts with higher ranks (we have real rocks to climb on and we ended up finding a handful of climbers to resurrect our council climbing committee). Anyway, the points they collected in the morning was used to deduct time in the race. The competitiveness was really great. I took some nice photos of the travois jockeys. The only down side was the competitiveness was overwhelming for some older scouts in my troop. They gamed the system, picked the younger patrol that got the most points in the morning and then volunteered to win the race for them. I figured that one out and had a talk with them, the SM, and the other ASM's. Unfortunately the scouts never figured out that this might not be scout like. It was amazing. Four adults trying to explain how rearranging patrols to win for the troop was not ethical and the scouts just not getting it. They said all the troops did this so I went and talked to SM's of patrols in the order they ranked to find 3 that didn't cheat. Turns out I just had to talk to the first 3. That was the good news. Now I understand why I was so burned out as SM. Two of the four adults had scouts involved in this. It's really a case of one self centered, outgoing scout that created this. This kid is about to age out but he's been a pain for a long time. I honestly feel sorry for his dad. He was frustrated. There was another patrol that was fairly sure they got a bad deal with the scoring. But they were very polite and asked me. So at 10pm last night I was waking up adults to get to the bottom of the story. Turns out there was a misunderstanding in some numbers this patrol saw. They were disappointed but respectful. I'm thinking of making them an extra award ribbon just for being very scout like in a tough situation. I told them they showed a lot more character than the scouts in my troop that whined and complained and argued with the adults over what was fair and what wasn't. Some adults warned me about having patrol vs patrol competition and the ugly stuff that would come up. It certainly was a headache for me (look at how long this story is!) but it was also a teachable moment and a lot of fun for the scouts that didn't worry so much about the award. All in all, we'll keep doing it.

Welcome @dciesla. Sounds interesting and different from what we do. Thank you very much for the glossary.

We have someone new so I hope it changes but previously half of each is announcements and half is something that the council thinks is important but doesn't really help the units put on a better program. Examples are how to do ypt online, lots of versions of our new replacement for FOS, how to do internet advancement using the latest and greatest. All good things for the committees but nothing for the cub and scout masters. I should add that people have tried before to have discussions on skills but nobody comes in and shows us something new, it's just the regulars signing to the choir.

Not in my district, so no. My guess is most round tables are not so good. I've seen some good people struggle with it. Just having a book, like the field book but covering a lot more than just outdoor skills, might really help. Figure out how to make this more consistent would really help a lot.

What you really want is drinkable alcohol. Denatured alcohol is just natural alcohol, or ethyl alcohol, with poison added. So, Everclear at 190 proof. The last 5% is just water. If you spill it in your pack just open it up and let it dry. The big problem is buying it. First, it's expensive. Second, I'm not sure it's scout appropriate. I did use it on a backpacking trip once. I did not tell the scouts what it was.

I certainly don't know how to tie a sheep bend. Is it like a hog bend (related to a hog tie). Maybe you're thinking of sheet bend? Anyway, I really like the idea of "give them enough to get started" but a critical part is to include information on where to find more. Get them through their first meeting and if they're excited then show them where to easily find a bit more. I'm sorry, but the current handbooks that I've seen don't really help. While Hillcourt has some really great ideas (fun with a purpose really could be the basis of that first idea), expecting a new parent to dig through the hundreds of pages he wrote is not going to happen. People don't have time and if they don't know there could be more then they won't look. Rather, someone else can dig through them. It's like fire building or knots. The basics are good but here's where you can find more info on starting a fire in a rain forest or here is how to tie a woggle. Or something deeper about scouts leading the troop. The point is make a sequence of ideas, or a tree of ideas, that they can explore and quickly get results from. Not only that but give examples of how to have fun learning each skill and that would help immensely. A think tank has to produce something that's easily accessible. Just waiting for people to come and ask won't work. If it did we'd have thousands of scouters asking us questions about how to improve things rather than how to deal with an odd SM. So, start writing. If you write it they will come.

Well, the forum has changed, scouting has changed, but the boys are still interested in knives, fire, food, gross stuff.... All is good.

We do mostly outdoor meetings in the summer. It's light enough we can do most anything. Those meetings are the most fun. So, from my viewpoint not counting that time is really odd.

Unfortunately, the Polaris system has not been applied to that yet.

I'm not sure I like the words "redundant or dumb" but there are just a lot of words in these policies. No slight to the lawyers among us but when things start getting into that much detail it sounds like there's just no trust between the SM and the scouts. Much of it is already in the GTA so maybe that's what DuctTape means by redundant. Also, so much of it just begs for more complex answers. It says there will be a uniform inspection at least once a month. What if there isn't? So what if there is? If a scout shows up in blue jeans then what? Is this really a policy or is it what the troop usually does? If it's not policy then remove it. The scoutmaster can remove a scout from a POR if he doesn't fulfill his position's requirements and there have been two meetings. And those requirements are specified where? It says the scout should ask for a conference at the start of the meeting for the lower ranks. Does this imply he'll get one? What if it's the week before a COH right after summer camp and 10 scouts ask for a conference? The SM is going to do all of them? What if the meeting is a bike ride to DQ? Is the SM still going to do all of them? Rather, I'd suggest writing a document that just describes how things work. Don't call it policy. Explain how the scout or a parent can get things clarified. As long as the SM and committee treat all the scouts the same and there are no surprises then nobody will complain. My troop has been around for 20 years and we have few policies. We do have a document that describes how things are done. To me it sounds like the real problem here is a lack of trust.

Well, a 2x4 is really 1.5 x 3.5 and split is more like 1.5 x 1.7. Anyway, 2x3's are $2.50 apiece. I'll try those. Run a planer down each corner to get rid of the splinters. But you know what this means? I need to make one and jump up and down on it. That's a video I won't take because, well, it could go viral.

Welcome, @Pack07. Plain white is just fine. We found someone that made us decals. They're still on their after 15 years.

Sounds like a good scoutmaster minute. Thanks. Oh, and it's one more thing we can blame on the British

This is only one segment of the race. But I'm still glad I'm going old school

Welcome to the forum, @TazDevil22. I'm really sorry this happened to you, but we'll try to help. There's a missing word here that could change the meaning a lot. Who did the SPL ask to calm down? I just think there has to be more going on than this. If I saw an ASM shouting at someone and this were the first time it happened I wouldn't ask someone to step down. Are there other reasons why people might want you as an ASM anymore? If you don't know, go ask the SM. There are lots of ways to appeal what happens to a scout but in all honesty what happens to an ASM is really up to the committee and SM. The Chartered Organization really has final say in any situation but usually they just follow the committee. I don't think appeal is the right approach. Fixing what's broken is probably going to work better.

We're going to have a travois segment of a Coulter's run at a camporee. Has anyone done anything like this before? Hints? Here are my plans. If I have time I will go find some small lodge pole pines for poles. If not, I'm going to rip some 2x4s. There will be two long poles, a cross piece for the load at the bottom and a cross piece at the top for pushing against. The patrol lashes this together with provided rope. A scout hops onto the load pole and holds onto the long poles while the rest of the patrol picks up the push pole and pushes the scout the requisite 10 or 20 yards. I'm wondering if the push pole even needs to be lashed in. Rather, lash the other three in the shape of an A and just wedge the push pole through the top of the A.

Sounds to me the men are making somewhat better decisions. Or just maybe they are drawn to degrees that lead to better pay.

I've told the parents the same thing I've told the scouts. I've asked questions as to why they think they didn't get elected. I try and keep personality issues out of it. Are they participating? Are they cheerful, friendly, and helpful? Are there other leadership options they can take on to get more experience? Yes, I am avoiding the obvious question they have of why don't I just make a decree. If they push for that they get the boiler plate we're modeling our community. Then comes the talk about failure is just a bad attitude. I'm just happy when they can make a decision. But for some parents it doesn't matter what I say and I suspect this is the type of person you've run into. Forty minutes on the phone over this? You get extra ice cream for that. You call that a bit of a moan? I'd hate to see a full moan. Anyway, there are no magic words. You did the best you could. There is another situation I've seen and I don't know if this is what you ran into. There have been a couple of times the scout elected had more hat than cattle, so to say, and I just shake my head. I've also talked to the scout about how real leadership is not always the one with the patch. When the duly elected PL fails to show up or do their job, just step in. It will get noticed and the problem will eventually resolve itself.

You need to go back to school, fred. There are 3 bullet points. To everyone else, all I can say is college was good for me, and I'm not even a girl. I think it's fair to say that college is like a lot of things, you get out of it what you put into it. (Eagle, anyone?) A lot of students have always looked at school as something to put up with. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised to see that they don't get much out of it. Then there are the people that find something they really enjoy learning about and get a lot out of college. Doesn't it always get back to one's attitude? That said, some coaching about job expectations and debt loads, up front, would be a wise thing for students to hear. To be honest, I never could stand scouts whose attitude about Eagle was just put up with it and get the piece of paper. I'm thinking I should change my approach. Some scouts have the right attitude and some don't. Kind of like college.

Welcome to the forum, @BillG. If you have the backstory you may as well tell all of us, as there is some doubt about whether this will work.

Welcome to the forum, @2dGenSM. It sounds like a difficult situation. Sounds like you put your heart into it and there's not much support. To be honest, if you were the longest running SM in some time at 2 1/2 years then I have a hunch something else is missing. I mean, why do SMs get burned out so quickly? Is this why you're moving on to another troop?

Just as soon as trout taste bad.

I tried something similar a very long time ago and the results were not good. At best, there was one or two scouts that could lead before and the rest were struggling. Now the rest don't need to struggle anymore. In other words, it doesn't encourage scouts to lead. I see the problem as the scouts do not have the correct leadership skills, because they've never really led, and therefore making it fun for them will not teach them to lead. The specific leadership skill that I'm thinking of is being prepared, i.e., making a plan. That just takes time, grit, and focus. I don't even care if the scouts follow the plan but if they have one then they have enough of an idea of what's coming next and can then work on all the other things they learn at nylt. The quality of their leadership is almost always related to how well thought out the event is. The eagle project is one example of where we force scouts to have a plan with enough detail that they can give it to someone else to run. Not that they'd ever do that but it forces the scouts to think of the sequence. Getting back to patrol method, I'd rather see a sequence of challenges for developing leadership skills. Kind of like ranks. Start small and build it up. Planning, communication, feedback, dealing with negative scouts. All those things would help a lot. I still remember reading the scout handbook for the first time and wondering if I could get to Tenderfoot. First class was so far advanced I was afraid to even think about how bad I'd do. The outdoor skills were very well laid out. The leadership skills were/are just a mystery.