Eagledad

This is a difficult question. Was the CM out of line? Yes, in general the adult by stander is not the judge of right or wrong in a patrol method program. On the other hand, did the Patrol leader need some guidance? We talk about learning from decisions and adults giving the scouts space to learn, but there is so much grey area that it’s hard to know where the adults role is defined. Learning from our mistakes takes practice. Knowing how to turn experiences into positive growth takes time and patience. this troop sounds young and inexperienced. The adults need as much time and practice to learn as the scouts. Quazse and NJ are both good reading. Your son’s troop is somewhere in between. So let’s look in the big picture. My advice is ask the son if the CM was right? If he says maybe, then ask the son why he is angry. If the son feels what the CM said was wrong, then the son has challenges at several levels. I would ask him to take some time to reflect, then talk to the SM. Then I would give my own opinion after they talked. There is something for all of us to learn from the sons experience. In our lives, we will always have CMs telling us what is right and wrong. The challenge is how a scout (and mature adult) should handle the situation when the CMs are right, and when they are wrong. And trust me, it’s just as challenging for a scout master to find the right words as it is the parent. The SM has has the added burden of adult pride to counter with. We CMs stand pretty tall and don’t like to fall. I hope the son sorts this out and has a life learning experience. I hope the SM has great wisdom for the scout. I hope the CM has to work weekends and misses the next few camp outs. Barry

I don’t know Eagle93, National has admitted they brought in girls to save the program from a declining membership. Switch the BSA and GSUSA titles around and your post would be just as believable. The BSA membership numbers have been dropping for many years. Once the influx of girls is stable, National has done nothing I can see that prevents the return of a continued membership decline. A good marketing slogan for the BSA in this moment could be: “Join the BSA, the lesser of two evils”. Barry

Admitting girls was the deal breaker for me. I will not be registering with my grand kids. But, my kids aren't happy about admitting girls to the program either, so I'm not sure that would come up. However, pragmatically, I don't think these YPT changes would have affected our program much 20 years ago. Barry

If you have the clout, go for the District Commissioner. I personally believe the DC is most power person in the district and has the most leverage with council. Besides other advantages, the DC can control the training and training materials. I believe (I know) training is the fastest avenue for making broad changes through the units. The DC was my goal for taking over the world, bru ha ha ha. By the time I was asked, I was so burned out that I declined. I know, but just the possibility that the person at the other end of my ringing phone was someone wanting to talk scout business nauseated me. And, that is why you haven't seen the world change for the better. Barry

Seems like a reasonable change with a coed program. Over the years I learned of scouting behavior situations and statistics that shocked me. I know that there are boy scout babies in the world. I knew that far enough back that those babies could be adult leaders now. One of my Patrol Method role models, who I met on the forum, quit scouting because of the coed problems in their Troop/Venturing Crew program. He and I were chatting (1997) at a Camporee 1:00 am while sitting between the girls and boys tents. He felt that American youth in our culture weren't mature enough to be coed. They were probably doing it wrong, because I know of a lot of successful Troop/Venturing programs that don't have this problem. Still, even church camps have to deal with the situation. But now we live in an open gay, transgender , and whatever culture. In fact, in some ways these behaviors are encouraged. I have heard of youth sexual abuses in scouting. And If I know of a couple, you can bet National has enough information to motivate such a requirement. The only time I can recall any of our scouts tenting together that were more than two years apart was a 16 year old scout who volunteered to monitor (babysit) a severely mentally retarded new scout. And, many of the sexual abuse reports I learned about were with scouts of the same age, and consensual. So, it's not and end all. Barry

Kids don’t always listen, but they are always watching what you do. Cindy Crawford

Let’s change that. We can’t have too much of a good thing. Stupid adult, always making rules. Barry

Don’t fear falling down, fear not getting up.

I have never felt more appreciated and unwanted as I did in the moment of his request. One wonderful thing that came out of my time off was the independence my younger 16 year old son gained as a result. We never saw much of each other at the meetings or camp outs, but we both felt a since of freeing when I wasn't part of the program. Kind of hard to explain, but it was a growing experience for both of us. Barry

A large jar of hair jell.

My replacement requested I take a 3 month hiatus because he felt my respect with the scouts might overshadow his effort in developing a relationship with them. I thought that odd since I trained him to be "Just like me". Barry

That is exactly what we do. During my stint as SM, we had two or three BOR leaders who recruited parents standing around, including new parents. The scouts have to request a BOR by signing up on a BOR request sheet. We always try to do the review the same day they sign up, which requires building a board with those standing around at that moment. The leaders give the volunteers a list of basic questions to help them get involved. Typically the leader starts with a few questions to set a tone for the BOR and to keep the question appropriate. As you said, it is a great way for parents to get involved. Barry

I guess, but I was hoping for quotes that both scouts and scouters could use in their units to motivate everybodies daily efforts.

My dad taught me this when I was very young. But he never gave Mark Twain the credit.

To answer your question, the CC is responsible for the BOR. Ideally they delegate the responsibility to another adult. You are in a tough spot because you are going to have to bring this up to the CC and/or committee. At the moment don't worry about passing around the responsibility. Your committee (and SM) need to get trained to how the advancement system works. If I were you, I would get all the documentation I could to learn exactly how the advancement process works and where the adults fit in. When you confront the CC and committee, you need to present facts back by the BSA. I say confront, but that sounds a bit harsh for how you discuss this subject. You don't want to get them defensive. You want to help inform the team so that they can be more efficient and not create some confussion down the road when a scout is getting ready for his EBOR. Barry

If it doesn't challenge you, it wont change you.

Orienteering

Two reason why troops go this route is they are overly concerned about advancement requirements, or they are dug into tradition. But why change if the routine isn't seen as a problem? Kind of like our PLC when I requested the one year SPL term, they couldn't see the advantage and I wasn't doing a good job selling it. Most of the times I've seen SPL and ASPL relationship problems is when the two positions aren't well defined. Even two scouts who don't like each other can get along when each has their own specific, and challenging, task that keeps the rest of the team progressing forward. Most of us view ASPL as the back up for the SPL. But what does he do until then? They each need their own specific responsibilities that not only balance the team, but are also understood by the team. I'll bet the average scout today cannot list their ASPL's specific responsbilities other than taking over for the SPL. And typically all troops are a little different. In our troop, ASPLs plan and run troop programs. SPL delegates and runs PLC meetings. By the way, this happens A LOT with unit adults as well, typically packs. Barry

I hear you. We all do. That is why the greatest character attribute scouts can learn from adults is humility. Barry

Well to be fair, the challenge for all adult leaders is learning to resist pushing the program the way they think it should run. The adults goals are Character development, Citizenship participation, and fitness. The scouts reach those goals through the actions of the eight methods. That sounds easy, but most adults need experience to figure out how scouting activities work toward those goals. So, instead of focusing on goals we don't understand, we get more involved on the eight methods. And it is a show stopper because the reality is adults ideas are limitations to scouts decisions. I was one of the worst. That is why I taught new adults of new troops to give the scouts the SPL and PL handbooks and let them go. That forces the adults to step back and watch how they scouts decisions effect reaching the adult goals of Character, Citizenship and Fitness. It's now quick, but it helps both the scouts and adults start in the right direction. Barry

While our program is like yours, I've observed the most mature troop programs had the commonality of electing the ASPL every six months with their SPL serving one year terms. I proposed this system to our PLC and they said no because they liked our 6 month SPL terms and saw no reason to rock the boat. So, that was that. Our system performed well, so I had no complaint. But I agree that our SPLs needed about 5 months to become productive. They work so hard, they think they need a break at the next election. I say, they think the need the break, because they can't seem to stop being an SPL even after the next SPL is elected. I believe they are over the hump of getting used to the job around 5 months, but I never got an opportunity to prove that theory. If I stayed on as SM, I probably would have requested a trial of 1 year SPLs from the PLC because I believe it would raise the maturity of the troop to another level. I personally don't support keeping terms short to provide more leadership opportunities. Maybe it's my engineering nature, but I believe good leadership is developing the most efficient program they can vision. I also value "role modeling" as the "best teacher" for the scouts, so I desired the best leaders. Maturity starts from the top and works down to youngest least experienced scout. The best measure of a troop program are the oldest role models. Barry

Be strong enough to stand alone, smart enough to know when you need help, and brave enough to ask for it.

Our color guards always started their service at each meeting with a quote when they were called to present colors. This quote is the kind of stuff they looked for. It's easy to say and makes and projects a positive point of attitude for the day.

What I mean is everyone should add one quote per day. We should dozens of new quotes a day (I assume we have dozens of members). If only three of us add a quote, then maybe the one per day should go away. Sorry for the confusion. Barry

One per person per day. Quotes that scouters can take back in pass along to their scouts. You might even start a Quote of the Day before dismissing the scouts. I did something like this with both my Cubs and Scouts. Your SPL may want to start giving them at Troop or PLC meetings. Not a lot of rules, but scouts get bored quickly. The fewer the words, the better. They love humor. I'll start todays: Success is usually found in a pile of mistakes.