Eagledad

I'm not sure what we would debate. A discussion without denigrating would be interesting. Funny thing happened at work yesterday. A colleague, who I've worked with for 20 something years and attended the same high school 50 years ago came to my office to talk about her 50th high school reunion. She graduated a year after me, so we had a lot of the same friends. Well a group gathered as she was telling me how proud she was of her friends because they are more accepting of blacks, Jewish, gays and so forth. I noticed the crowd looking at us in wonder, so I explained that in our school of 1500 students, we had 3 blacks, and I'm not sure of any Jewish or anyone else. We didn't have racism in our part of the world because there wasn't anyone to be racist at. I looked at her and said if we were guilty of anything, it's that we grew up naive. I would rather be naive then so judgmental of your friends who didn't grow up in a school where we could even practice racism. She took a step back and didn't know what to say. She brags about being very liberal on the political spectrum. I think she realized that she was being the very person she was accusing her friends at our school. I kind of feel like that is where our culture is. The general population is being accused of all kinds of horrible things by cultural political activist when in reality the worst we can say is we were, or are, just naive. I'm still trying to wonder where those of us who don't approve of gay behavior fit. Can't change the bible or biology. Are we eventually going to jail. Or can the culture accept each others differences. I'm still seeing the word homophobic being thrown out every once in a while on this forum. The word homophobic is defined as an irrational aversion to homosexuals. Where is the line drawn between rational and irrational? And, what about those who have an irrational aversion toward the religious. What are they called, moral-phobics. The more we try to become inclusive, the more exclusive we seem to have become. Barry

Thanks for the clarification. I think two subjects were combined into one, helping out the camp staff and giving new scouts independence. Well, I tend to speak in idealism and work my way back. There are plenty of resources for scouters for most of the situations they run into. But the adults have to want to find answers. More often than not, scouters don't do the research and work the situation their way, not the BSA way. You think training will help? Training doesn't train person to be an expert, they train them in learning what they need to learn. BUT, I found through polling scouters at Woodbage that less than 20% of Scoutmasters have read all their SM Handbook. Less than 10% of ASMs. Passion seems to be the driving motivation for learning the concepts and elements for a Patrol Method program. Like you, those scouters are easy to identify. They like to talk about patrol method or boy run and they typically studied and read Badon Powel and William Hillcourt (Greenbar Bill). They can usually identify the Aims and Methods and how they apply to the patrol method. I'm not sure that Patrol Method was every easy for scouters, but it sure is harder today. Barry

With all do respect, there is absolutely no reason for adults to "ensure they (scouts) get to the program area" and "make themselves (adult leaders) available to assist (camp staff). One is just an excuse for the other. The primary mission for the troop is growth of your scouts. If you are uncomfortable letting your young adult scouts find their way in an area that doesn't get any safer than a Scout camp, then we can have a discussion about that subject. There is no safer place for your youngest scouts to grow and mature than the environment of summer camp. It is a safe place for them to make bad decisions. If your troop feels the need to supply volunteers to the camp, then they need to approach the camp director first when they arrive at camp. The adults need to leave for those program areas before the scouts and come back after. The scouts just need to be walking around camp with scouts. We typically had about a dozen adults attend camp with us. The only direction they were given is stay away from the scouts and enjoy themselves. If they wanted to help at programs, they could, but not along side their sons or scouts. They could fish, hike, sail and canoe, but not around the scouts until free time. Then if dad and and son wanted a little dad and son time, they could do it during free time. But the adults knew summer camp is where the scouts get intense patrol method experiences and we would rather give as much of that experience as we could. Which is why our troop typically puts the adults in a different campsite. Not far, the giggling new scouts still kept me up at night. Usually just across the road, but the intent is clear. Our experience every year is that the parents of new scouts tell us their sons came back a different person. In a very good way. I'm pleading, don't miss this opportunity to let these young men stretch their confidence and maturity by letting them make their own decisions at summer camp. If they get lost, they and their buddy will learn to ask for help. If they aren't in the mood to go to an uninteresting program, they and their buddy will learn from the consequences of their decision. But the adults must be prepared that the scouts had the best time of their lives because they chose something different from the adults. As you watch these boys grow to make adult decisions, you will grow to love this scouting stuff. Barry

Family scouting certainly will. Barry

Yes, but there is a difference between playing the adult game of scouting and the scouting game of scouting. Growing and maturing is typically assumed as growing more character and more wiser, "as and adult". So let's be careful how we define the game. Barry

I don’t understand, duty to god is our values. How is that redundant? Barry

I don’t know. My son in law is in marketing and one of his State of Oklahoma clients told him that figure. I will ask him where they got that number. But a friend also raise the same question and wondered if that included grandparents who take care of their grandkids during the day while the parents were at work. Seems more reasonable. Barry

I gave the SPL a simple agenda guideline for running meetings. Something like -reading of last weeks minutes -officer reports -old business -new business -SM minute (which was rare because I didn’t attend most meetings after the SPLs first 4 meetings) Our troop ran a 30 PLC meeting every week before the troop meeting, so he had a lot of practice. Program is fairly easy because he has been doing program since he joined the troop. PLC meetings are new for them because success requires the SPL to plan ahead, control the group, be organized, and delegate. Those are alot of skills to learn just to run a 30 minute meeting. And the success of entire program is dependent on that meeting. So I started simple with just giving him the short simple meeting agenda to follow. Then I watch how he plans the meetings, runs the agenda, controls the group and delegates or follows action items and assignments. It seems like there is a lot more to the responsibility for the leader of the whole program, but he will learn how to lead, support, serve, and guide the whole program simply by mastering the skills to run a successful meeting. All those skills I mentioned are required for a successful servant leader and require practice to master, but surprisingly controlling the group is always the most challenging. The skills he develops as a servant leader in controlling and guiding the members of the PLC in the meetings will develop his skills in serving and supporting all the Scouts in the whole troop. The agenda is a simple start for the new SPL, but he quickly finds it the most challenging thing he has ever done in Scouts. But it’s ok, I know he will struggle and I’m in no hurry. Barry

Does the SM follow the same policy? Barry

Maybe the BSA should get out of the family structure business. I just learn that 51 percent of children in our state (Oklahoma) are being raised by ltheir grand parents. FIFTY ONE PERCENT! I'm told drug addiction is the main cause and it is a huge rural problem, suggesting low income levels. Still, I work in a PHD rich department and I remember thinking 20 years that maybe education can be too much for some people because a 3rd of our department was raising their grand children. My faith teaches that family is the beginning of a moral righteous community. But, I'm seeing that confusing national cultural values can overwhelm the community, which can directly effects the dynamics of a weak family. We used to have pretty good debates on this forum. One of those debates was whether the only source of morality is god, or God in my case. National is struggling because they are finding themselves loosing god as the foothold of moral values, which is directly related to the family structure. Mention morality and family structure together in this forum and it brings out the worst in us. The American culture is becoming more anti religious (which naturally defaults to anti family in my opinion) and that challenges the BSA default fallback suggestion of "discuss this with your parents". Which parent! I had scouts with three step dads and moms. Over the years, Qwazse has posted his observations of the differences between American youth and European youth. I paid attention because I was curious of why youth in Europe are more mature. We just got back from a 3 week trip in Italy and Qwazse was on the mark. The big difference we saw is that the family structure is still very strong. The community is a reflection of the family, not the other way around. My wife and I have noticed lately in our local restaurants that it's common to see each family member at a restaurant quietly focused on their cell phones. We didn't see any of that in Europe. I know that is a little think, but it sure stuck out to us. Ironically, I believe building a unit of scouts worth multiple religions and multiple family structures was easier before becoming a family program because the scouts didn't really care about backgrounds all that much. Now that families are more in control (parents), units might become more inclusive. I'm can't say that is a good or bad thing. Seek out a unit that fits your style. But it will have it's challenges. Barry

My apologies to shortridge and the rest of the forum members. Qwazse's response is soooo much better and respectable. I still have so much to learn. Thanks qwaze. Barry

You are assuming there is only one reason for our opinions like religious morality. My opinions are based from life experiences, but are supported by my spiritual guidance. Mothers and fathers instinctively have different approaches to raising kids because they instinctively view situations differently. The differences balance each others reactions toward their kids to where most kids in a father/mother homes grow up basically more balanced than a home where the two human instincts aren't balanced. Most human behavior experts agree, or agreed until political correct activist forced a tamer opinion. So, the challenge is how the BSA could discuss the differences of fathers and mothers without implying suggesting ideal situations. I think that is where qwazse was saying. Maybe there isn't a good approach in this political environment. Barry

I don't think so, and here is why. I also regard them as inferior too. I don't base that off of religious beliefs, politics, or emotion. My opinion is the result from life experiences after watching several generations of families in similar situations. So what! If you don't agree, then respectively say so like an without being judgement. Funny, I didn't pay attention to who I was responding to until your last post. You seem to really struggle with respecting posters of which you don't agree. If you have a different opinion, then just be honest and strait forward instead of trying to cleverly disparage the poster with judgmental guilt. We may still agree to disagree, but at least we leave with our integrity. Barry

Yah, I think it was more than simply using the words of the poster. The question was for me offensive and out of line. It was not inquisitive to understand the poster better. It was derogatory by implying the poster for you was too judgemental. Respecting opinions of which don't agree is challenging, but it is scout like. Barry

I was once given some sound advice from a forum member to hold off responses until our emotions and judgement don't control the content. I haven't always followed that advice, but it has saved me much embarrassment over the years. Barry

The challenge for adults is knowing skills for filling in the gaps where scouts struggle. For example I found that 80% of the scouts in our NYLT courses had "NO" guidance for how to run a PLC meeting. The adults basically threw them into the den of lions by telling them to run the meeting without teaching any skills. I learned that most adults don't really know specific skills to plan and run meetings, they just know how to be methodical. But scouts don't have a life experiences to think about what is required for meeting agendas. Our NYLT participants where taught a simple meeting plan used for all meetings and patrol corners as well as simple plan for planning meetings. That gave those scouts such a huge lift in running meetings that the SMs told me they were learning from the SPLs. It's easy to say that National doesn't know what they don't, so they can't teach everything. But I found that the SPL Handbook does give simple guidelines for running the PLC meeting and PL Handbook for Patrol corners. So, there are good starting places. IF the troop would just start with the simple guidelines in their handbooks, then the holes that stump the scouts are a lot easier to work through. I certainly agree adults need more guidance for Patrol Method. I developed a Patrol Method course for our council. But, if the adults would search a little more for BSA sources to specific situations, they would find that there is a lot of information. Especially in the age of Internet. But, adults, for whatever reason, choose to teach scouts their own personal techniques that are usually very complicated and confusing. If we should teach the adults anything, it's to search their resources to the problem first. Barry

Seems like a reasonable, intellectual, and pragmatic approach to THIS topic. However, not only have I not seen your reasonable approach attempted during the gay and transgender topics, they were basically ignored by both National and frowned against by many members of this forum. So, I don't expect much cooperation on family dynamics by National. I don't hold much hope for the forum. Barry

Whatever is encouraged, it should be for the character growth of the scout. The goal of the scouting program is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law (BSA Mission). In short, character. Character is simply judging self-behavior and making choices without being influenced by our personal nature and temptations. I think the phone would be a great tool toward developing character because it is such a strong temptation and repetition of habits. The scout is forced to make a choice against his nature and bad habits for the good of making the right choice. Adults see phones as an annoying distraction. But annoying distractions are the best kinds of teachers of self-discipline. And it's not just a great teacher of character for the scouts, it's a great practice for adults of using tools to develop discipline. I compare it to the uniform. Scouts struggle with the uniform because they are concerned about their identity. Adults struggle because the uniform represents respect and not wearing it correctly shows disrespect. Adults need to shift their ideals of the uniform to developing the habit of making ethical and moral choices. Scouts need to learn and understand the practical reasoning for the uniform and what it represents to the scouting community. It requires both groups to grow and mature in their respective places in the scouting program. The adults learn better skills for helping scouts grow, and the scout develop a better self-discipline and making decisions. Barry

Every troop is different in their policies and procedures, so I'm not sure how far a Webelos leader would want to go. Of course joining an existing troop has it's own challenges because they may not have a program that fits your goals for your scouts. This is what we ran into as we looked. So, we decided to start a new troop. And that was much easier. Barry

The most important part of patrol method is understanding what the goal is for the scouts. If you don't know where you are going, how do you know when you are off the trail? Barry

For the boys side, get the SPL Handbook and Patrol Leader Handbook. For the adults side, set up the adults camp site 100 yards away from the Patrol camp sites and wait for them to tell you what to do. The adults should also use the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook so they know what the patrols are doing. Barry

I have no proof, but I believe the BSA has been forced by economics to turn the program into a YMCA style family scout program. For a lot of reasons, funding can't support the present higher risk outdoor values program and they are in survival mode. It will be a way for families to get some outdoor time together. It will not be a character building program anymore than YMCA is viewed as a character building program. And, based on my experience of the kind of families the program will attract, it will develop an even more nerdy reputation. I think scouts in Europe survives being more traditional is because the outside influences that are killing the program here doesn't really exist in the culture over there. Ironically, I believe the GSUSA will one day be considered the more traditional scout program. That is how much I think the BSA will change. Barry

I think the BSA will have to force some direction somehow. I believe the membership changes will heavily burden the program with unexperienced adults who will require some hand holding to keep the program moving forward. The induction of female leaders around 1990 forced National to completely overhaul the training program for troops. This membership change is going to be a lot worse because all the parents will view themselves as leaders. Even the few adults with experience will be pushed hard to conform to demands. Barry

Wow qwazse, that’s pretty deep. You never posted anything I didn’t enjoy reading (oh ya, there was Eagle thing, wasn’t there?), but I need some time with this one. Ok, Lake Erie, buttressed bluffs, and obstructed views. I’m sure those are key. Thinking...thinking...🤔 Barry

There is no debate, my response to your demeaning choice of word does says something about my religious beliefs and something I can’t change. Homophobic is a derogatory trigger word that says no tolerance of homosexual behavior. Many religions believe homosexuality to be immoral. Members of those religions have no choice no matter how they feel about it. I can see that offends you, but I’m sure even your religion teaches a behavior of tolerance. That you can’t think of a better choices of words exposes your anger and bias. Sore winner? Ive learned over years that more often than not choosing silence makes a more powerful statement and reflects maturity. Barry