Eagledad

MattR pretty much posted my thoughts. Statistically the success of crew programs is directly dependent on the leadership and agreed direction. And statistically crews with specific programs like the EMT, Law Inforcement, Scuba, and Ships have greater longevity because the goals are more obvious with sponsors that maintain a program goal. Barry

My experience is a little different. First, 11 year olds will hang out with 17 year olds when they are together in the same activities and program. As for the boredom of older scouts, the key to ALL scouts staying satisfied in the program is challenging them mentally and physically everyday. Boys of this age get bored when their experience doesn't provoke some intellectual and physical stimulation. And I'm curious why you don't see leadership and mentoring as the challenge for the scouts. I once poled our 14 and older scouts (45 of them at the time) to find out how many enjoyed the high adventure part of our program. 14 of the 45 said they enjoyed the high adventure. So, something other than the high adventure kept them coming back. The key for adults keeping the program challenging is to insure that the scouts are continually making decisions that effects them at the moment. Mix things up a little. Change routines. Challenge them for new activities. Make them think and act. Give them a chance to make bad decisions and learn how to recover. I know we talk about younger scouts and older scouts, but I really believe thinking of the program in those terms sets the wrong ideas in the adults. Instead think of the program as challenges for EACH scout. Not all scouts are leaders, but they all should be practicing moral and ethical decision making. Truth is the Patrol Method isn't about servant leadership, it's about a servant lifestyle. Leadership is just one aspect of that lifestyle. We had a scout go to the emergency room because he broke his toe while running through camp. I asked the scouts why he was breaking the rules of no shoes and running if they told him to stop. Well, none of the dozen or so scouts near him said anything. I held those scouts accountable for their bad decisions for not serving that scout by stopping him. Everyone is responsible for each other in a servant lifestyle. Every scouts should be expected to make decisions and held accountable for those decisions no matter how small the consequence. The example I use when I taught that principle at SM Specific is the uniform. The Scout Handbook clearly, or did then, states what the scout should wear to a troop meeting. If the scout isn't wearing the correct uniform, then why? Whatever the reason, the scout made a wrong choice. If the scout shows up to the meeting a few minutes late without good reason, he made a wrong choice. If the scout isn't helping the patrol when he is needed, he is making a wrong choice. These are little things, but can start to become habits is not challenged. The hard part for the adults in the troop is that it is also a safe place to learn from bad decisions. Instead of forcing a scout to change (hide) his behavior by making him feel bad about himself, the challenge is helping the scout see the advantage of making right choices. Adults can't force a boy to change, only the boy can do that. Adults can shape a program to where the scout, during his scouting experiences, can see himself as he is at the moment and can be in the future. I use the uniform as an example of making right and wrong choices. Many would assume by that statement that our troop would look like a perfectly uniformed troop. Quite the opposite. When scouts are given the freedom to make bad choices, there are many scouts who go through periods of struggle in their choices. Strangely I found that the uniform to be one of the most challenging methods for both adults and scouts when making ehtical decisions. Ironically the challenge for adults is opposite of the scouts. I have found that the best patrol method troops are typically not the most uniform looking troops even though the uniform is expected. I'm rambling, sorry. Barry

The challenge with BORs is having a good group of members to man them. A canned list (as you call it) helps troops bring in parents without a lot of training. We tried to keep to BOR leaders trained so that they could guide the rest of the board members toward learning from the scouts experiences with the questions from the list. But it's a challenge. I'm personally not a fan of BORs because their purpose is difficult to understand for the novice of scouting. There is a lot of confusion understanding the difference of checking to see is the scout is ready to advance and checking the quality of the program. And how to do that without using the big "R" word (retesting). The BOR is encourage to not fail a scout, but what if the program quality is so bad that the scout isn't ready? Shesh! I've said for many years that if the main purpose of the BOR is a check on the program, the parents should be interviewed as well because they will fill in where their son doesn't give a complete picture. Otherwise let the Scouts do the BOR. Barry

Why do you say that? I believe the traditional scouting program is dying, but I didn't see National separating the middle school age with high school age scouts. So I'm curious why you think they will. Role modeling from the older scouts is the foundation of the highest performing patrol method programs. To take that away pretty much kills the boy run aspect of the program because the adults become the role models by default. And that is not the same. Barry

I tried to have a little chat with the scouts as often as possible so they got use to friendly chit-chats about anything. It is a challenge with bigger troops. But I knew I was doing ok when the BOR leader told me that one of the scouts they were reviewing didn't even know when he and I had our SM Conference. I ran into this scout after lunch at summer camp and offered to buy him a popsicle. As far as he was concerned, it was one of our usual chats while enjoying the popsicle. I also tried to have the same kind of chats with the parents as often as I could. Usually when they dropped off or picking up their sons from meetings or camp. The scouts do all the work talking to the drivers and loading/unloading the gear, so that leaves me plenty of time to mingle. A good relationship comes in handy on those rare occasions when I have to talk about a challenging experience with their son. Barry

This is exactly right. I am so passionate about this problem that I stood up in front of the district committee and asked them re-evaluate their MB College policies. They asked me to sit down. As the SM, you can't decline an approved MB card, but you can (and we did) tell the scouts that the troop wouldn't accept a counselor approved card that wasn't first signed by the SM. That forced the scouts to seek out the counselor and speak with them to get their personal information and class times before the classes and find the SM for a signature. That wasn't a perfect situation, but it help keep the troop policy that scoutlder just posted. But it's not like our scouts relied on the these MB Colleges. Our troop encourages the scouts to work MBs all the time. We keep a counselor list around for scouts just asking about badges. We brought in two counselors a month to give a 5 minute troop meeting presentation for any scout interested. The scouts still had to seek out the MBC and set up their meetings. The problem I see, and I was trying to stop, with these MB colleges is that many troops rely on colleges and summer camp for all their scouts' MBs. And those are the two worst places where the policies go around the the BSA stated polices. Without even knowing it, troops get into bad habits and practices. I found that half of the troops in our district didn't even know basic proceedure of the SM signing the MB card before the scout even starts working with the counselor. I fixed that in district basic training. Barry

There are different ways to handle scouts that don't earn the badge the rest of the den earned. When I was CM, we started encouraging the Webelos to award their badges and pins at the den meetings as soon as they earned them so they wouldn't have to wait so long. The Webelos earn so many pins that the parents get use to attending the last five minutes of the meeting to cheer the boys. Then we recognize them again at the pack meeting by calling them up each one at a time and handing them their award card. When they are called up individually and then sit down again, the scouts who didn't earn the award don't stand out. If the CM knows ahead of time that the whole den earned the award, then they can stay up front to stand as a group as each scout is called up. Barry

Yep, I guess you are right. At least we have a forum to help a little. Good post. Barry

I'm not a big fan of First Class skills instruction. Sometimes it's required, but less is more. Instead inspire your older scouts to think of some fun activities to motivate learning the skills. One year the PLC came up with an interesting skills lesson. It started with the SPL deciding to hike the troop about one mile into our campsite. Along the way the troop ran into a car accident. As the SPL encourage the troop to move in to the accident scene, it was interesting to see how many hesitated. It's hard to rush into the unknown. But when they got close enough, the scouts could see the accident was set up by the older scouts to teach first-aid. They had done research on the internet to make fake blood and wounds. The experience went better than I had hoped and every scout, old and young had fun and learned A LOT. Funny story, two months later our troop is driving to summer camp. As we came over a hill, we find our caravan is the first on to a roll over accident. The road was went and the driver lost control. We had several doctors in the group, so they went to work with the driver and passenger while we kept the rest of the troop back. What we didn't tell he scouts was that we were concerned another car would come over the hill and loose control right into the group. So we back up a bit. But, a scout approached me and asked why we went through the trouble of teaching them first-aid two months back at the simulated accident scene, and then wouldn't let them go help the doctors. I still laugh when I think about that scouts question. I didn't have a good answer. So, a quick idea that might motivate some ideas from your scouts is do a three mile hike instead of a troop meeting and set up stations along the way where the scouts experience or see skills in action. Just doing something completely different will be refreshing. Getting the older scouts to come up with creative skills stations ideas will be fun for them. And depending on your meeting location, the hike itself should be fun as well. Could even do it on bikes. Barry

My older son got the Eagle, my younger son was much like yours that he didn't want the leadership so much. But let me tell a story about my younger son. He and a bunch of his friends organized a Boundary Waters canoeing trip for their Senior graduation. He grew up with these guys, play soccer with them, church and scouts until crossover where my son went to his dads troop. It was their Sunday school teacher who organized the trip. He was a scout leader in a troop that six of the seven friends got their Eagle. He also did the Boundary Waters when he was a young scout many years ago. My son was the only other person of the group that had experienced a Boundary Waters trek. The trip didn't go so well because it rained the whole time and most of the scouts didn't prepare for it. My son was amazed that several of the boys only brought flip/flops for foot wear. The adult with the experience hadn't been in a canoe in 30 years, so he really didn't remember how to portage. My son questioned why they weren't preparing better in the days before the trip, but he is a bit introverted and didn't respond when the adult said everything would be fine. The first couple days were really hard because the group struggled with carrying, loading, unloading, and just plain paddling. The adult with experience realize because it had been so long, he had forgotten most everything and it was over his head. That is when my introverted son, who doesn't like leadership responsibility, stepped up to teach everyone how to do portages and move equipment. He taught them how to paddle and how to find their camps on a map. He eventually turned into the go to guy, FOR EVERYTHING. You have to remember that it's raining most of the time. So even starting fires was struggle. When the group got back, they were pretty excited. I think because they were life time close friends, it was still a positive experience. The only comments from my son was he couldn't understand how all these Eagles were so inept out in the wilderness. That was all he said and hasn't mentioned the experience 12 years ago much since. It was the adult Sundays school teacher who told me that my quiet introverted son save the trip, and my have saved their lives. Then he told me all the stories of how my son, while never being called the leader, turned into the trek teacher and leader. He said there was even a point the group was lost and trying to figure out how to get back to base. The situation was pretty intense, but he said the reason nobody panicked was because my son kept his composure while they discussed options. I tell this story to say that even though we talk a lot about developing leaders, what scouting really does best is prepare all young men to deal with the unexpected. My son will tell you he is not the adventurous type. He likes to think everything through before he attempts anything out of his comfort zone. His older Eagle brother is just the opposite. He jumps into situations without a plan and finds himself having to get himself out of trouble. It was his patrol that showed up to a campout without any food. My introverted son hates surprises and trouble. But God put him in a place where if someone didn't take some kind of control, people might have gotten hurt really bad. The Boundary Waters is not a forgivng wilderness. My son learned by the years of adventure from the program. He had the confidence to step up because he watched so many others step up during his experiences. And quite frankly, even though he would say he wasn't a leader, he made many hundreds of responsible decisions over those years in the troop. He worked with new scouts and taught skills. By the nature of just participating in an outdoor adventure youth program, my son turned into an expert outdoorsman with enough confidence to takeover when conditions required this shy introverted young man to become and extrovert and push other people to step forward. We like to motivate scouts by telling them to be prepared. But how much does anybody really think about those words. The program works. The program works if we just trust it. Just do the program the way it is presented, no more and no less, and even the scouts who think they are not leaders will develop the skills and confidence for the unexpected. I can't find it now, but this is why I get a little emotional with the video of the South Africa Scouting commercial. That father was my son. As long as your son is being challenged to grow while doing scouting stuff, he is becoming a leader. Don't tell him that, he will laugh. But I have a story. Barry

The first camp out for our new class of crossovers was on a very dark and very rainy March evening. After we reached camp, the new SPL was just repeating the routine that he had observed and assisted over the years of him and the Patrol Leaders taking a hike to locate all the patrol camp sites. Each patrol tries to get as far from each other as they can, so it can take a few minutes. Mean while all the patrol QMs start to instruct the rest of the scouts in unloading the gear from the cars and trailer. It's raining pretty hard as I watched the troop in action. The new scouts are disoriented, it's dark, it's raining and they have never done anything like this before in their life. The SPL walks back with the patrol leaders and feels very temped to help the new scouts just standing there watching, but steps back as the TGs gets their attention leads the new scouts to their new camp site. They look lost, but they are smiling as they walk into thru the rain into the dark. Thank goodness they brought rain gear. I always like to watch new SPLs on their first camp out. First thing I teach the SPL after election is delegation. It is such a hard skill to practice because up to this point, their previous responsibilities have been more of doing in their climb to the SPL position. This SPL, like those before him, finds a place where can stand and watch. This is what the SM does, waiting to serve is the goal of the SPL. But he is temped to help the scout who is searching for the missing tent poles. He throws out a suggestion and the scout waves a thanks. The new scouts are following the TGs around like baby ducks following their mother as they set up tents. The SPL walks over to show one newby how to drive a tent stake. However at the same time, a PL approaches with a problem. I don't hear the problem, but the SPL starts to follow and is just as quickly stopped by another PL with a question. The SPL looks up at the dark sky and says, "is the rain coming down harder". Not really a question, but more of a pause in the beginnings of the chaos. I take a few steps out of the trees and quietly throw out "delegate". The SPL looks at me, then the area around him. I watch his gears turn, he turns and walks over to the ASPL helping the TGs and ask him to assist the PL with the problem. Then he listens to the second PL and gives a satisfying answer. I smile a well done to the SPL, turn and go to the car to get my gear. It is never planned this way, but SPL and SM are always last to find their tent spot. The SPL approached me with a big smile the next morning as I'm drinking my coffee to say that he has never been more challenged, more scared, and more exhilarated in his scouting experience. He can't wait for the day to start. I asked him how the new scouts are doing, he laughed and said he could hear them giggling in their tents all night long. It's always that way and I'm thankful that the adult camp is so far away. I asked him if anybody got soaked. Nope, all is well in the beginings of a beautiful sunning morning. We try to make each scout's scouting experience more challenging than the day before so that he not only continues to grow, but continues to be excited. This SPL is only 15. How can he be challenged more. Well, the SM has to step back some more from some of his responsibilities. The SM has to grow as well so that the SPL and the troop to grow. If your 15 year olds aren't getting these kinds of experiences, then I think you are doing it wrong. The measure of a quality for a troop should be the experiences of the oldest scout. Not the youngest. Barry

It is sad and I ironic. Our neighbor, while I was a Cub Master, was a district leader for Campfire. By coincidence, the wife of our ASM was what we would call the District Commissioner. Only over a much larger area. She was well connected to the National office. I was lost when I started in cubs and the neighbor gave me all her notes. The program was fantastic. I was what I still feel Cub Scouts should be. But both friends admitted that they felt the future was bleak. Campfire had changed it's membership policy to accept gays and the membership numbers were taking a huge hit. It also started to accept boys, but that wasn't as much of an issue as the gay policy. The program is still around, but just a shell of what it was in the 80s. As I became a troop leader, the internet started becoming a popular source for resources and scouters in the Canadian Boy Scouts dominated the content for troop scouting. At the time, Canadian Scouts had the most boys of any nation in the world. And it was also respected as the best boy scout program in the world. If you were to search for scouting resources now from the Canadian scouts today, well there is a little. But, they were the go-to experts of troop scouting before the organization took it's sudden left turn. I think there will always be a market for some kind of youth outdoor program. Whether it resembles the scouting program that we have discussed here in the past is the question. But as I said, I have come to believe the folks at National are in it for the folks at National. I don't feel there is much tradition, nostalgia or values principles holding them to a plan. Barry

Over the years, I have given much of my life to the BSA at most levels from the Tigers to council. Looking back, I believe that National's actions and decisions for the organization are more self-serving to National than the rest the organization. Can an organization with that kind of leadership sustain itself? Canadian Scouts and Campfire Kids are still around. Barry

I believe the best units are the ones where the CC has the vision of the program and recruits a like-minded Scoutmaster/Cub Master with the gifts to make it happen. We all have our gifts and when we use them correctly as a team, amazing things happen. Barry

Sounds like your integrity precedes you. Doing more than is expected of any scout won't likely change any more minds. Barry

Many awards in the BSA are requested by members that, I guess, you would consider subordinates. The Leadership Award of Merit and adult Religious award are good examples. Many times Woodbadge participants will try to write Ticket Items to earn these awards and have to be reminded that they have no control for earning the honor. Which makes these awards all the more honorable, which is what Jason wanted to do. Funny story; when I explained to a Woodbadge participant that the church had to initiate the request for an adult Religious Award, he assured me his dad was a member of the church and would make sure the church made the request. Or course I didn't allow him to use that for a ticket item. Some folks will do anything for a knot. Barry

It is the goal at the very least. Barry

Well said, we had a couple of campouts with a patrol of one. They usually get a lot of respect and praise by the other patrols. Barry

The four steps of team development are forming, storming, norming and performing. If the team never gets to storming, they will never get to self functioning performing. Scouting is a growth development program. There is growth through all stages of team development, but storming and norming are the most challenging steps in team development. The growth from those steps are also the most fulfilling for scouts and are generally the drive that motivates a scout to continue his scouting experience. If the scouts never get to those stages of team development , then likely the adults have to become part of the program just to keep the scouts somewhat interested. But rarely do scouts in these kinds of program stay past age 14. Barry

The scouts understand better than anybody that not everybody is cut out to be the SPL. The troop is real life scaled down to a boys size. Barry

All our dens had at least two leaders, some had more. But we recruited that way. Recruiting a co-leader is a lot easier than recruiting a den-leader. Sharing the load 50/50 doesn't appear as challenging (scary) as taking on the whole den program by yourself hoping and the assistant will take off some of the pressure. Co-leaders plan together and assume equal ownership. Personalities take over after a couple months exposing the true doers who typically stepped up to carry the load. Because of burnout, we combined a few Webelos dens with a minimum of three adults during the meetings. I only accepted leading a Webelos Den of 16 scouts when I was promised at least 4 other adults at meetings. We all joke about the one hour a week, but we tried hard to reduce workloads to a minimum. I admit I'm pretty good at recruiting. Not all the leaders are great, but we managed to get thru the year. We had a very high crossover rate at all ages. Barry

We had over 100 scouts (140 one time), so we only awarded rank advancement and specialty awards like religious awards at the pack meetings. If the DL wanted to do something special at the den meetings, I (CM) would try and present their belt loops and beads. But that was rare. Barry

Adult friendly also means giving Den Leaders priority over their program. It they need help, recruit for them. If the need a meeting place, find one for them. Make committee meetings short and to the point. Provide news letter to help spread pack information. I could go on and on, but you see my point. Make the leaders happy, and they will make the scouts happy. Make the parents happy, and they will bring their sons. It works. Barry

Fred, you make a good point about making a course fun. We also used that course and you will have to trust me that the "whys" and "hows" are in it. Learning in general is easier and faster when first understanding why, and then the how. That is very much the case for scouts learning their Scout Skills. Why a Sheet Bend over a Square Knot? Oh, that makes sense. A good way for checking a Scout's knowledge of a skill during BOR without retesting is asking him the why of that skill. The whys are in the Scout handbook. The reason the ISLT course wasn't hosted as much as some of us would like is that it was a one and done course. The course was fun the first time, it was a wasted Saturday for those who repeated it a second time. At best it was a once a year course for new leaders. Barry

I agree 100%. I used to counsel struggling units and develop courses for the district and council. I always started my counseling and teaching with goals and visions. The number one mistake for course developers is spending more time in the weeds then the basics of understanding the objective. All the Ticket Items had to be approved by me at Woodbadge and I asked all the participants to write the goal before creating a plan. It's harder than one might think. I believe this Webmaster course is a good idea, but I personally don't see it much of a technical course. A clear understanding of "why" and "what" (I like that order better) makes a solid foundation for consistent "hows". And frankly, when it comes to webmaster type stuff, we went to the kids for instruction. Barry