Eagledad

Of course, I believe that the best SMs are 95% subjective leaders. Barry

My son, dad, and myself were laughing last week as we remember back to the day when we realized that adult experts weren't as expert as we thought they were when we were kids. Even experts have emotions. That’s why when technology was capable, sports went to replays and start/finish electronics. Barry

In my work, both are required for a balance procuct. I use both professionally every day and I've never seen consistent impartial evaluations of human performance. Machines are consistent, Humans are emotional. Subjectivity changes moment by moment. Objectivity is timeless. Barry

Subjective is an opinion. Objective is impartial. Barry

Most of the time Troop age scouts feel intimidated by adults asking why they are dropping out, so I always talked with parents as well. Parents know what's going on and tend to give a more completed explanation. I also would ask my sons or scouts who knew them well. Our troop program was a growing program, so in most cases (not all) the parents pulled their sons from our program because they had different expectations than ours. Most of the time it was because they wanted a more ambitious Eagle program. Which is ironic because our troop average an Eagle every 2.5 months. At the pack level, I only questioned the Webelos because, believe it or not, that is the most critical age for measuring the future of troop programs. But, I found that parents usually are the reason for cubs dropping out, so I talked with the parents. I would guess that 95% of our cubs who dropped were pulled out by their parents for parents' personal reasons. I learned over the years that the most successful packs attend to the needs of the parents first, then their sons. So, build an adult friendly pack, and you will have a cub friendly program. The opposite is true for Troops. I will say that a troop age scouts dropping out was rarely a surprise. If the adult leaders are talking to their scouts and parents, they will see it coming. Barry

And this leads to a great example of "The law of unintended consequences". Up to this time (1989?), Webelos didn't join troops in one big group, they joined over several months depending a lot of the new scouts birthday. Nature of the design forced the Patrols to work with each scout independently toward their 1st Class skills. This had been the basic model for at least 50 years. Because scouts joined over several months, the patrols were use to teaching the same skills repeatedly over the year. That naturally forces a balance of the Patrol Method and first class skills over the year with the bulk of the development responsibility on the Patrols, or more to the point the patrol leaders. Once the Webelos started crossing over in groups, the natural result was developing the skills of the group at the same time instead of individual scouts. That led to creating and yearly agenda of 1st class requirements based on priority of advancement, not the each new scouts needs. And since each patrol (or NSP) all had scouts from the same crossover group, the responsibility of the Patrol agenda fell on the troop PLC because that was the most efficient approach to new scout skills growth.That means instead of patrol members teaching first-aid over and over all through the year, the skill turned into a troop theme for one month out of the year and taught more at the troop level. Because of the group crossover, Patrol method was being replaced by the natural efficiency of the troop method. The Patrol Leader's responsibility of monitoring and advising his scouts was being replaced by leadership at a higher level. And since advancement was taking a higher priority over patrol method, leadership requirements were being pushed down to younger ages so that the requirement didn't get in the way of earning rank. Since the group approach for scout advancement was being taken over at the troop level (including adults), less maturity of the PL was requiring less expected responsibility by the adults. Adults today are probably shocked that all my patrols leaders as a youth had their drivers license. PLs then required a lot more maturity because their responsibilties of the patrol members where a lot greater. I came in to the troop program in 1992 and watched this evolving slowly play out. It's easy to see looking back, but the changes were slow enough at the time that many adults never had time to react. Our troop did start reacting around 1995, but the group crossover is a very powerful force to overcome. Barry

Ahh! I remember those good ol days. One of the first changes we made when I became Cub Master was simplify the Blue & Gold back to a fun night that only lasted around an hour. We moved the Arrow of light ceremony to the January Pack meeting and the Crossover to the March Pack meeting. I believe in handing out awards as soon as the scouts earn them, so most of the Webelos already had their AOL by January. The 20 minute ceremony was really more of acknowledging their honor and paying tribute to their Cub experience. The pomp and circumstance was really intended to get the younger scouts excited for Webelos. The Crossover was just 10 minutes of OA crossing the Webelos over into their troops. Barry

And tell the helicopter parent to back off. Barry

If I could teach the adults to take to heart one concept of the Troop program, that would be that "Boys prepare for their future adult life best from the adversity within the adventure". We have a lot of adults ask on the forum about policies for canceling a camp out do to weather. The general rule for weather is that if the scouts, or adults, didn't endure the weather very well, they didn't prepare for it. Adversity teaches us how to prepare to do better the next time. Whether that next time is leading the Patrol Corners meeting without loosing control or setting up camp in the rain, that adversity of the situation motivates scouts learn so that the experience is less stressful next time. I would tell the adults to spend less time on meetings, advancement, and ceremonies. Spend the bulk of the time making the next camp out more adventurous. More cooked meals, more activities in the woods, and more patrol interactions. All with less adult observation or intervention. The troop is the real life world scaled down to a boys size. Let the boys experience real life. The troop is also a safe place. Safety is letting scouts fail without gilt. If we allow scouts to make decisions from the experience of adversity, they shouldn't feel guilty when the decision didn't help ease the struggle of the adversity. They should instead feel comfortable and motivated to seek wisdom from their role models. Yea, it's kind of funny that most new troop leaders think scouts have all these dreams and ideas of great adventure. But, I'm not sure why we think that. What experiences in their lives would give them that? When we adults did finally realize that the boys needed help in being creative, we started letting the adults propose some ideas as well. Not over the scouts, but a choice among the choices. In fact, we would push for more scout ideas just so it didn't seem so obvious. One of our adults was an avid back packer who had back packed all over the world. 5 year later we averaged at least two week long back packing treks a year. Another adult wanted to go to Alaska. He sold the PLC on it and took a large group of scouts. Of course the scouts have their ideas too. One scouts was a champion Skeet Shooter, so we planned a Skeet Shooting weekend. Another was a local recognize bicycle racer, so we ended up doing a lot of biking camp outs. Troops need to learn how to use the Adult Association as a team concept instead as a us and them concept. I understand the risk because it does allow the adults to get some involvement with the scouts, but if the adults keep working the concept of adversity as the teacher, the adults will understand how to step back and let adversity do the magic growing the scouts' maturity. However, I admit the adult side of the program is not easy. I have said here often that for the patrol method program to mature, the adults have to learn more and faster than the scouts so they stay out of the way. And, I think we males get set in comfort zones and we let creativity slip now and then. We have to remind ourselves that scouts need adversity to grow. Adversity requires constant change. Change is OK. Barry

This attitude really bothers me and I worked hard in our district to change it. I'm guessing, but I think National created the perception by adding Venture Patrols to the program in 1990. They suggested troops put all their older scouts I Venture patrols at age 14. Between the First Class in the First Year concept and the Venture Patrols, what are adults new to scouting supposed to think? As you pointed out, there isn't really that much adventure that younger scouts can't do if it is planned wisely. Barry

Most troops seem to have limits, but ours didn't. Since we usually set the adult camp site out of site and sound of the scouts camp sites, we rarely had problems with adult interference. We might have a situation once in a while, but not enough to force a change of policy. Barry

I don't think the pack program is the problem for the boys. It might be a problem for not preparing the adults for the troop, but not the boys. I was one of three adults who started our troop program. We each had a great scouting experience in our youth in very boy run programs. So we had very boy run expectations when we were visiting troops to cross into. But we found ourselves disappointed in the troops we visited. Eventually we decided to start our own troop. When the DE heard that, he pointed us to a dying troop of 7 scouts between the ages of 12 to 16. The SM was burned out, so the program suffered. I remember one of our first campouts was a back packing campout. Not a long hike, only a few miles because 11 of the scouts were Webelos just a few months before. But, one of the older scouts from the previous program said they had never done anything like that before. And I think that is the basic problem with the troop programs today. To much first class advancement and not enough adventure. Believe it or not, most boys don't like KP. Most don't really like cooking all that much, either. Planning isn't that much fun and shopping for groceries is boring. But, when sharing those responsibilities with your patrol mates for the purpose of doing the really fun adventure stuff, they aren't barriers of druggery that make a 12 year old think twice about going camping. Those little things are just stepping stone responsibilities for the really fun stuff. I have often said on this forum that the success of a troop program is measured best by the older scouts. If the older scouts are coming and having fun, the younger scouts' program is having fun as well. I find that the majority of troops spend way too much time running the younger scouts through the gauntlet of learning First Class skills instead of doing adventure stuff where first class skills are just part of the fun. And those troops generally start loosing their scouts around age 14. The attitude, sadly, is the fun adventure is for the older scouts. Those are also the scouts who are supposed to be leading and role modeling for the younger scouts. Adding to the problem of boring the younger scouts to death with low adventure and high advancement is boring the older scouts because they are pushed to teach the first class program to the younger scouts. Well of course, it's a boy run program, so the older scouts are supposed to be the teachers, right! But the problem is teaching the younger scouts is just repeating their first three years of the troop program. And who wants that! Generally it falls on the older scouts whose dads are the adult leaders. The rest of the older scouts left. The troop program needs to be as much adventure for the 11 year old as it is for the 15 year old. Older scouts like role modeling. They like showing their skills. They just don't like repeating the same ol same ol classes of sitting on a log learning knots. Adventure is running into the woods to gain the experience of surviving in an environment that most of their friends have never seen. Fishing, hiking, riding bikes, canoeing, swimming, and rappelling is the fun stuff. Older scouts showing the younger scouts how to do the fishing, hiking, riding bikes, canoeing, swimming, and rappelling is even funner stuff for their age and maturity. Adults sitting by the fire back at camp while the scouts are fishing, hiking, riding bikes, canoeing, swimming, and rappelling makes it even more fun for everyone. There are lots of ways to adventure and we can discuss that, but this is my answer to the problem you present to us. To many adults are leaving the out door adventure fun out of the program and as a result, the troop is closer to a Webelos III program than an out door adventure program. Barry

The professional paid scouters will tell you that the most frustrating part of the scouting program is the volunteers. 95 percent of them either don't take their responsibilities seriously, or they are just terrible at doing it. That being said, thank goodness for the FIVE percent because they carry the weight of the program. swilliams, you are the five percent. You are the parent I look for when I go recruiting for dominating unit leaders. You not only have the passion, you have the will. You don't see it yet, but you are the unit leader in the purist meaning of the word. So, how do you get your unit program on track. Well first remember it's your track that you want the unit to be riding. That can be good or bad depending on YOUR vision. Be careful not to step on any toes or burn any bridges as you push forward. Just like dripping water that changes the shape of rocks over time, gentle nudges forward eventually shape big changes in program, over time. Next, keep doing what you are doing. Volunteer to fill in where you see gaps. And don't ask for permission so much as just state that you VOLUNTEER to do this and that, and go do it. Just be that nice parent who has the time. What typically happens is you will buoy yourself into the dominating leadership position by default. Most likely the CC. That is where you can force big changes toward your vision. From there you can use your recruiting skills to fill positions to get the pack righted. I believe Wisconsonmomma can help you a lot as well and hopefully she will respond. But be patient let the gaps of the program pull to helping shape the program. If you push too hard, you can find yourself going two steps back for every one step forward. Barry

Woodbadge is another fascinating arena to observe human behavior. Barry

Up until the requirements changed (1980s?), OA Arrowmen were the most impressive Scouts in the program. I’ve said many times that they were the Special Forces of scouting. And in our troop, past SPLs took the position of troop guide because they felt it was the most challenging and rewarding position next to SPL. Of course a lot of that depends on the specific troop program. But the responsibilities of our troop guides required a great deal of maturity. I never saw a TG 14 or younger that was any good, and I was never less than impressed with TGs 15 and older. Barry

There is a PWD formula somewhere on the internet the builds a program schedule so that each car gets to race a minimum of something like seven times. The objective of the derby is for the scouts to see their car run the track. They get to see their car race some many times that most scouts get bored. The formula tells the operators which car goes on which track. It doesn't eliminate cars, it adds up points. After the minimum number of races have been run, points are added up to find the winner. The final race is a race off with the winners of each age group. We had a large pack of 100 scouts, so we raced with two tracks to get the event done in under an hour. We would allow broken cars to get a pit fix, but that doesn't happen very often because the cars are turned in the night before and inspected for the reason that some boys bring cars that aren't quite up to competitive spec. We add a little weight to some car or balance the wheels on others. The goal is to get each car to finish all the races. It's was a big family event for our pack each year with refreshments. Barry

Maybe. I acknowledge that scouters today seem to be working with a different kind of parent generation than the parents I was working with just 15 years ago. One of the BIG differences between volunteering in a Cub Pack and a Troop use to be that scouters had to work with parents more closely in the pack because they were more hands on with their sons. I don't think that difference is as broad today as it was just 15 years ago. Troop leaders have to be better today because they have to work one on one more with the parents than past generations of scouts. I have a psychologist friend and we've had a lot of human behavior discussions over the years. Recently he said I was one of the best human behavior experts he ever knew. That was a surprise to him because I'm an engineer. I told him that nothing teaches the fundamentals of human behavior better than working with parents. My high school teacher son recently said the same thing. Barry

The troop policy is basically that tents are private safe areas so long as the scouts aren't disrupting the sleep of those around them. I didn't realize how much the scouts took that to heart until a back packing trip where I was forced to listen to some teenager discussions in a language they were more accustomed to using at school. I told them the next morning during breakfast that while the tent is a safe place to have private discussions, it's not sound proof. Barry

We found (myself included) that the first summer camp is the hardest on families because it is, for most, the first time the parents and sons are separated for more than a couple nights. So we started teaching the parents how to get through that week by advising they send a letter each day, but writing how they are excited to learn what new adventures he experienced and what stories they will tell. Don't say how they miss him, but instead how this is an experience he will remember for years to come. When I was SM, we asked the new parents to attend the first campout so that we could show them how the patrol method program works. But then we would suggest they stay home the next few campouts to give their son and themselves a chance to grow from the brief separation. After that, the new ASM parents should start camping with the troop. All and any parent was welcome to summer camp because 6 days of an intense patrol method lifestyle was the best way to build a base of support for our program. Even at summer camp, the adults typically camped in a different camp site to give the scouts the separation needed for patrol method scouting. Just telling parents that they will feel a type of depression when they are separated from their kids for a few nights is normal, but a part of life as they watch their kids grow into adults. I found that just acknowledging that parent homesickness was normal made it easier to for them to endure the separation and themselves grow from it. Barry

Freds right, if the scout has done what is required of him, anything else is adding requirements. Now I'm not preaching about the goods and evils of adding requirements, I personally think there are times and places for everything when it comes to growth. But, I have observed and experienced similar situations like this one and if push comes to shove all the way up the ladder to National, the scout wins every time. Actually this situation is very common with new scoutmasters because they tend to get emotionally tied up in old business trying to set their new standards on the troop program. And what makes it worse is the other adults have and opinion as well, which just adds complexity and confusion for the new SM. In reality this young man is not your scout because you weren't his mentor. I used to teach Scoutmasters that most problems like this scout don't just suddenly happen. The scout was allowed by his mentors to developed habits that has put him where he sits today. To some degree, I feel for scouts who have go through several scoutmasters because each scoutmaster his a different set of standards and expectations. In my mind, this scout should have had a few conferences before now. You are the new counscience of the program and you can work with scouts more actively as they grow and mature in the program to prevent this kinds of situations. But is it really fair to hold this scout to your new more rigid expectations now? Learn from this experience to better prepare you for the next, because there will be a next. And by the way, leave what you think about dad out of the equation. Yes, he might very well be the scout's main motivation. But adding that detail to your mix only makes you more frustrated and doesn't change the outcome at all. It's just a note in how to work with families of your future scouts. Barry

This is quite good. I believe God's reflections of anger in the whole First Testament are examples of using anger specifically for teaching. However, I also found that disappointment was my best tool for showing a scout how I felt about his performance. Maybe because body language is honest and sincere, but I rarely had to add words for impact. It worked well in our troop because we discouraged yelling (raised voices) as a form of motivating action. I'm not sure if this style of reflecting to scouts requires practice and maturity, but I had to grow into it. Again well said. We each have a different style for influencing scouts. Consistency is very powerful because the scouts will quickly learn your leadership style and count on it. MattR says to let everyone know before hand, but I found that when leadership actions are consistent, reputation and integrity will eventually lead the way. Words rarely trump consistent actions. For outsiders looking in, the leadership and role modeling style of the dominant leader (usually the SM) will become the obvious character of the whole troop. So put humility on the top of your list of practicing traits, because nobody gets it right the first time. Barry

We've never had a scout that wouldn't camp without a parent. Not that I knew about anyways. I think the Patrol Leaders know how to deal with something like that. I like to move the adults far enough away to where we can't hear them at night. That's about 100 yards, give or take. The only time I ever regretted that spacing was when I had to visit a sick scout at 3:00 AM on a moonless night in a heavy woods with an outside temperature of Zero degrees. Barry

I'm not sure what gblotter is agreeing or disagreeing to. Why would the adults be more trained for safety than the scouts? Why would one scout be more likely to get lost than one adult? I have personally been lost on three of our treks (twice at Philmont, and once in Boundary Waters), but the whole group was lost, not just me. And the group figured out how to get back to the trail. Is a trained scout less likely to get the group back on the trail? When I work with unit adults in training who are reluctant to give scouts independence because they fear the worst, I guide them to train the scouts to be prepared for that fear. All adults have some kind of fear. For me it was lightning and severe burns. So to ease the stress of my fears, we worked a lot on lightning and fire safety, as well as first-aid for those situations. There was no reason for me to restrict our scouts program if they are prepared for those situations. Scouting does a good job preparing all it's members (both scouts and adults) for the common emergencies out in the woods. While I admit the responsibility of safety for all the scouts weighs more heavily on the Scoutmaster, a SM should never feel they have better judgement for the scouts' safety. If they do, then training should be in order. Barry

Good article. Kind of on the same basis of other discussions on this forum. It won't sit well for those here who believe that both men and women are Venus. Masculinity for them is a four letter word that implies unfair power. When I look at the list and ponder what I gained in my youth that carried me over as a self-confident husband, father and grandfather, I must say it's the code. The moral code I learn as a youth kept me balanced over my life kept when all those around me were running around flailing their arms in the wind. The moral code is the legacy a boy will carry the rest of his life. As scout leaders, we start with the moral code so that the scouts learn to ground themselves as they practice the rest of the list. Barry

Our best SPL was the same. He LOVED everything about scouting except advancement. Barry