The Boy Scouts In Crisis - A Historian's Perspective

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

I assumed thereafter, and to this date, with all attendant risks, that the revoked policy - not published by BSA for years now, but still repeated by councils - was still in effect but did not apply to our severely allergic Scout's Epi pens or similar cases.

I understand you point is in general, but there are now clear policies out there.

Website on the safe use: Safe Use of Medication in Scouting | Boy Scouts of America
Main policy document: Medication Use in Scouting, No. 680-036 2019 rev.

[John-in-KC]

On 11/24/2020 at 2:40 PM, David CO said:

I can think of one.  Many Chartered Organizations wouldn't like it.  My CO wouldn't like it at all. 

 

Chartered Partners are also under legal pressure from their insurers, and not from the Scouting lawsuits. 18 is the legal age of adulthood. Damn few activities will allow the intermix of adults and children by the law, and most of them have good attorneys to consult. The two that come to mind are public school districts and post secondary institutions. 

[John-in-KC]

2 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Where does one find published telephone numbers for BSA National managers? 

The BSA safety guy used to come here, which  I found educational, but it's fair to say he was given a hard time.  He has not been around, I think, since the squirt gun rule was adopted.

@RichardBourleon is indeed still around. He posted in the last two months c

[TAHAWK]

2 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I understand you point is in general, but there are now clear policies out there.

Website on the safe use: Safe Use of Medication in Scouting | Boy Scouts of America
Main policy document: Medication Use in Scouting, No. 680-036 2019 rev.

About the issue that started my quest, it's clear now.  Reason prevailed.  not that it changed our practice.

About beer, clear as mud.

[Eagle94-A1]

14 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

My friends on the National Staff get abusive, threatening, and obscene calls over policies.  One close friend has received many death threats.  Think about that, receiving death threats for a change to a program to help children.  It affects those staff because they do not know if any are really serious.  Could one of them be killed for doing their job in a children's afterschool program for changing some requirement as directed by others?

OK, death threats are uncalled for, need to be investigated, and punished by the law. That is way over the line. Too far over the line.

Obscene calls are also over the line. And need to be dealt with.

As for abusive, it depend on the definition the pro is using. I had a SE state that publicly disagreeing with the council is abusive, and had the individual removed from Scouting. Whereas i have been yelled at and told I do not know what I was doing, etc by volunteers, but to told to grow a tougher skin by the same SE.

The reason why folks are upset with national is that there is no transparency. Decision are made, and no one knows who is making them or why. When asked for input from volunteers, the results of that input are ignored, never posted, or responded with "double speak."  Volunteers were ignored regarding Instapalms as 94% Against (18%) or Strongly Against (76%). The poll regarding membership changes by the members and volunteers has never been published AND  a segment of the Scouting population, Western Region LDS members were excluded form those results. And look at the "double speak" of the Churchill Plan survey that national had to do because someone posted a slide. A lot of folks think Sea Scouts, OA, and Venturing are safe for the 18 to 20 year old members, when the "double speak: says they will continue talks on the matter.

Further there are times when the national level volunteers making policies are overruled or uniformed of the decisions National has made or plan to make. Philmont being mortgaged but not informing the National Philmont Committee, nor the Trust about the mortgage is an example of National pros not being transparent with national volunteers. Another example is the National Sea Scout Commodore being completely taken off guard when the Churchill Plan was leaked. Not only should he have been informed, he should have been on the Churchill Committee. IMHO. Then there is the 411 Committee that redid the Cub Scout Program in June 2015. They were not informed prior to the December 2016 Cub Scout program changes.

Volunteers are upset and angry at they way they are being treated by councils and by national. You have volunteers who will do anything in their power to help Scouts and units, but will do absolutely nothing for council, let alone National because of the treatment they have experienced.

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Volunteers are upset and angry at they way they are being treated by councils and by national. You have volunteers who will do anything in their power to help Scouts and units, but will do absolutely nothing for council, let alone National because of the treatment they have experienced.

Uncanny! It's almost like you know me!  Lol...

I have been asked to serve on five separate council committees because of my experience and belief in what Scouting can accomplish.  Yet, because I do not support FOS, our SE has denied my positions on those committees. I only suspect this because our SE has never told me he has denied my participation, nor why. I only hear the negative from the volunteers who have asked me to serve.

Was also asked to serve on a neighboring council WB staff, and a regional and national committee, only to be later told "thanks, we're full".  I suspect my SE torpedoed those, and that the course director and committee chairs we trying to spare my feelings.

I have some schadenfreude with BSA (the organization) circling the drain...knowing that Scouting (the movement) will continue.  I can wait

 

[vol_scouter]

Eagle94-A1,

By abusive I mean cursing, screaming, and threats.  A polite disagreement or registering of differences is not abusive.  Threats are common and death threats not unusual.  I do not know what is reported but suspect that a call will not be reported because the caller cannot be identified.

[MattR]

@vol_scouter, you seem to be a grief magnet. I suspect that's because you're as close to national as we see. Anyway, here's a slightly different perspective. I don't really care about insta-palms, the cubscout changes, the LDS, the membership changes or any of the other hot topics on this forum. But all these issues are really just side stories. There's really only one story that, at this point, raises the question of whether the BSA will even exist a year from now. The story is a steady decline in interest in the BSA for some five decades and what the BSA is doing to change that. If there were a lot of interest in scouting then all of these other issues would fade away, so they are not the issue. After watching this for so long it appears that the BSA is mostly just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. They thought it was getting eagle so there's been a push to crank out more eagles. There was scoutreach. Now there's Bechtel and STEM. Nothing is really sticking. Everyone may claim they know the answer but until anything is tried out it's all just arm chair quarterbacking.

You had mentioned that all the volunteers should get behind the leadership. After 50 years of doing that I think the volunteers have lost faith in the leadership. That's why they're nitpicking every decision. And you have to admit, Mosby has not been creating any sort of optimism. Sure, he's dealing with a fire and things are so far gone that we don't know what the BSA might look like, or if it even exists, a year from now. But still, I haven't heard anything.

A lot of people here say get back to the basics or core competencies of the BSA. I suppose there are different opinions as to what that looks like. How about just leadership? You took woodbadge. The very last day I was told that good leadership is servant leadership. Look out for what the people want. That might be a good place to start.

I will add one thing to consider, though. There is nothing more impressive in scouts than seeing a scout that finally gets it. It's the confidence, the desire to help out cheerfully, the responsibility, just knowing that this young person will do fine. Every parent that sees this in their child knows the power of scouting. Some are happy, some are proud and some are relieved. That's what every other parent should understand as the goal of scouting. That's what every volunteer and employee of the BSA should understand as the goal. It is what makes scouting unique. Get everyone on that page and fight off the nitpicking, and everyone will start following the leadership.

[CynicalScouter]

4 minutes ago, MattR said:

You had mentioned that all the volunteers should get behind the leadership. After 50 years of doing that I think the volunteers have lost faith in the leadership. That's why they're nitpicking every decision. And you have to admit, Mosby has not been creating any sort of optimism. Sure, he's dealing with a fire and things are so far gone that we don't know what the BSA might look like, or if it even exists, a year from now. But still, I haven't heard anything.

And what has come out has only come out as leaks from folks on here and reddit. And as noted, they even removed the list of board members from their annual reports.

How much confidence are we suppose to have when so much is being hidden?

[SSScout]

My wife's first husband had nothing good to say about Scouting. Don't know why, of no consequence now.  Wife had been a Brownie for a short while growing up, but her father was a researcher for the Fish and Wildlife service, so her family had a good lot of experience in the "great outdoors".  When we met and married, my Scout experience became hers (Eagle, OA, many summer camps). My newly enlisted stepsons were a little old for Scouts, and daughter had no use for GIrlscouts (too fashionista and tea partyish) so when youngest Scoutson came along, and he SAID he wanted to be a Cub Scout, we jumped.  I became a Den Leader, Cubmaster, wife became Cub Scout Day Camp Director. Eventually, I became Assistant SM, went to WB,  served as Chaplain (fully approved by my faith, the Chaplain corps, National too )  at the Nat Jam. and so forth, etc. etc.   Scoutson went to Philmont twice (once as a Crew Leader), Jambo Staffed, earned Eagle. 
Then I applied to be a Nat Jam Chaplain again . I received an email (!) stating I was not approved as Nat Jam Staff. When I inquired why, I was told it was a "Private matter" and the reasons could not be disclosed. Huh?  It's MY "private", you can't tell me WHY I am not suitable as a Scout leader? I've already BEEN a Chaplain. What changed? 

After dozens of emails and phone calls, I was finally told that my local Council had given me a bad rating. Huh?  The year before I had been Staff for the WB course, served as BALOO and IOLS instructor. What did who say about me?   Sorry, can't say. Let me say  it looks like you made an enemy somewhere. Huh?  My faith wishes to name me as a Chaplain. After alot more back and forth, the National Staffer (his name was Green) finally read me the rating sheet.  I marveled at the comments he noted. Would it help to get some different opinions on my Scoutspirit/attitude/character/skills/interpersonal dynamics?  He didn't think so, but he would welcome them.  I had 22 friends/bosses/Scout co-workers/faith leaders/educators willingly (eagerly, even) write embarrassingly complimentary letters for me. Still didn't help that year.   Mr. Green told me the letters were "enlightening", but the decision could not, would not be changed.  But , I said,  that means that somewhere in the BSA bowels, there will be a file detailing how unsuitable I am, when it is not true.  He said it will be destroyed after the Jamboree, try not to worry about it.  Huh?   As an added mystery, my would've been fellow Chaplain, with essentially the same type of history, (but from a different Council) was approved and accepted "instantly". 

Next Jambo, my faith org, The Friends Committee on Scouting, and I, did the same application thing, and PRESTO,  I was "approved"  very quickly.  

Owing to the way National and Council had treated me, ,  lovely wife FORBID me to EVER donate anything extra via FOS. 

Lack of transparency?  Lack of open phone numbers?  Names responsible for what? Lack of response to a "volunteer's"   earnest inquiry?  Yes, and it has happened more recently.  Stonewalling?   Hope you will just go away?  Follow the Scout Promise and Law?  Ability to face/confront one's accusers?  

And people wonder why the National organization should be considered separate from the local Scouting.

Yes, I am still a Scouter. I Commish, I train, I explain, and I hike.   

See you on the trail.

Edited November 29, 2020 by SSScout

[RichardB]

16 hours ago, John-in-KC said:

@RichardBourleon is indeed still around. He posted in the last two months ct

Hey I know that guy.   @TAHAWK your council knows who to call if they have a question.   There is no longer a volunteer facing interface outside the local council so any inquiry is going back to them,.    And shooting at each other is still prohibited.   In case you want to review other prohibited activities:       https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/#b

 

[TAHAWK]

13 minutes ago, RichardB said:

Hey I know that guy.   @TAHAWK your council knows who to call if they have a question.   There is no longer a volunteer facing interface outside the local council so any inquiry is going back to them,.    And shooting at each other is still prohibited.   In case you want to review other prohibited activities:       https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/#b

Nice to see a trebuchet is still OK.  😄

 

[David CO]

6 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

By abusive I mean cursing, screaming, and threats.  

I have had all of that happen to me (by the execs).  Unfortunately, my unit is not allowed to keep the identities of our unit officers a secret from the council.  I wish we could.  It would make running a unit much easier.

[vol_scouter]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

I have had all of that happen to me (by the execs).  Unfortunately, my unit is not allowed to keep the identities of our unit officers a secret from the council.  I wish we could.  It would make running a unit much easier.

You should let the Council Commissioner and Council President know about abusive behavior from council employees as they can assure that such actions are corrected.  The SE and all local council staff are under the management of the local Executive Board.  The President and Council Commissioner can contact other Board and Executive Committee members.  The local council is similar to the National Council but different at the same time.  The professional staff is there to serve Scouting and to help volunteers to deliver the program.

[yknot]

5 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

You should let the Council Commissioner and Council President know about abusive behavior from council employees as they can assure that such actions are corrected.  The SE and all local council staff are under the management of the local Executive Board.  The President and Council Commissioner can contact other Board and Executive Committee members.  The local council is similar to the National Council but different at the same time.  The professional staff is there to serve Scouting and to help volunteers to deliver the program.

I'm not sure where you are or what you do but I have never had anyone from our district or council do anything to ever help resolve any kind of contentious, abusive, or illegal issue. Abusive parents incensed that advancements were perhaps not moving quickly enough to jet their scout to Eagle? Upheld by Council. Incompetent or abusive council employees or volunteers? Upheld by council. Problems with possible embezzlement and CO involvement? No response or involvement from Council. It is as if they do not exist except for FOS time and for the very overworked and underpaid admin assistant who cheerfully processed our paperwork as best she could. Of all the paid positions at council, guess who council laid off this summer? The admin assistant.