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AltadenaCraig

"Scoutmaster' Title Doomed?

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34 minutes ago, AltadenaCraig said:

Well, since you asked, I don't think it should be on the forum.  There's a reason it's not an option on Facebook, for example.  A downvote is aggressive, IMHO, and has no place except perhaps in outrageous posts; and even then the better option is to "report".  Ditch the downvote.  Now back to the topic at hand ...

It doesn’t matter, if we don’t have the maturity to take a down as disagreeing, no words that will work either. For some here, All comments that disagree are “hate”. An arrow is just shorthand I guess. 

Barry

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I like Troop or Scout Advisor. This is not so much a reaction to current events but as I posted earlier, I've never liked either term. It has a hierarchical, military ring to it to me as well as the whole weird "maaathsssterrr" vibe. It's something that needs updating along with uniforms and certain aspects of the program. Cyber Chip as currently designed, for one. Tenderfoot is another name I'd be happy to see gone. I'd combine Scout into Tenderfoot with a cut out for cubs who had earned AOL. I'd get rid of Tenderfoot and call the combined rank Scout. 

 

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2 hours ago, David CO said:

How about Kemosabe?  

1f50c86f1e908f3cab760695d50584ec.jpg

 

Sorry I couldn't resist.

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@qwazse referenced a thread of mine from a few years ago when I was a moderator. 

At the time I was concerned that the new software here would act like Reddit (Probably the most popular forum/subforum website on the planet). On Reddit, if a post receives too many down votes, it's automatically hidden. We ran a unscientific experiment, and I had a post with -12 down votes. It DID NOT hide my post. So while that's not conclusive if too many negative reacts will censor a post, it does mean that given the smaller forum numbers we have here, that practically speaking is not an issue. If that feature exists, we likely don't have enough active users to hit the threshold. 

So down votes and up votes here don't have a prescribed meaning, but we can see the developers intent with the highlighting of posts with significant up votes and reacts. I personally don't care if people down vote my posts, but I would prefer them to post in addition to that so their opinion is out there. Down voting posts with out an explanation doesn't do much to further a conversation or change anybody's mind. 
 

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32 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I personally don't care if people down vote my posts, but I would prefer them to post in addition to that so their opinion is out there. Down voting posts with out an explanation doesn't do much to further a conversation or change anybody's mind. 

To @qwazse's credit, his downvotes were accompanied by comments.

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30 minutes ago, AltadenaCraig said:

To @qwazse's credit, his downvotes were accompanied by comments.

Nope, there was no comment with his down vote on one of my posts.

I've also had bizarre personal messages from folks on here who do not respond if you ask them what they meant.

We've got a lot of varied viewpoints and opinions on here. It's clear that perspectives, approaches, and beliefs vary greatly based on unit, region, religion, whatever. But we're all supposed to be friends in scouting and I hope I've always been respectful in my comments, that someone will call me out if I unwittingly am not, and that they will be respectful in return to me if they disagree with my comments.  

 

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Get rid of 'Scoutmaster' ?  I think you're pandering to an appetite that refuses to be sated.

So what word are you going to use when a Scout 'masters' a skill?  Oh; wait...  Scouts are no longer asked to master Scout skills.  BSA was ahead of the curve!

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On 6/27/2020 at 12:33 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

 

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Just an FYI,  we've been removing media that does not pertain to the topic. I'm tired of being the school marm with the ruler smacking knuckles. Consider your knuckles spared :)

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Posted (edited)
On 6/26/2020 at 4:33 PM, walk in the woods said:

It is inevitable.  Been happening in tech for some years now.  See https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-industry-has-an-ugly-master-slave-problem/.  You'll note in the article Yale stopped using the title master for the heads of their respective Colleges.  The BSA has already signalled their virtue, they will have to submit to every demand moving forward.

I remember being a young intern working with male and female engineers and technicians.  I was always uncomfortable talking about cables having male / female connectors.  Seriously. 

Edited by fred8033

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On 6/26/2020 at 5:50 PM, yknot said:

That's funny because I've never liked Scoutmaster or Cubmaster. I always thought the titles were weird. For an organization trying to distance itself from youth abuse issues, it always made my skin crawl. So maybe one good thing to come out of this.  Although before people immolate me with flaming brands of scout horror, I completely respect that others have a different opinion. 

 

I support you.  Beyond the long standing tradition of the terms, the terms can be creepy and easily misinterpreted.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/27/2020 at 10:01 AM, scoutldr said:

I vote to borrow the term "Advisor" from the old Exploring and now Venturing program.. With new emphasis that the adult Scouters are there to "advise" the "Leaders" who are the SPL and PLC.  The do not decide, they do not dictate, they facilitate.  The advise the program that the YOUTH decide on, and ensure safety and adherence to the GTA and GTSS.  In the decades that I have been associated with the program, I have seen the gradual "helicopterism" taking over such that the youth merely sit there and wait for instructions from the adults.  You don't sign me up for a MB University, I don't earn MB.  You don't spoonfeed me advancement and sign me off because I sat there and listened to a lecture, no rank.  No direction, no action taken.  It's the way we are raising them, and it's wrong.  I have family members with "kids" pushing 30 who still can't function as adults.  It's sad.

"Advisor" is the better term and more accurate toward the intention.  I've always thought the term scout"master" caused  misinterpretation.  And long term, adults forget their role because they keep hearing "master".  I was once thinking "coach", but I've seen too many coaches with a military general command-n-control complex too.  

Language meaning changes over time.  Acceptable words from 100 years ago now mean very different things.  IMHO, it's fully acceptable to update words to reflect the desired intention.  

Changing to "Advisor" fixes both a politically-correct issue and a misinterpretation issue.  It may even help perception distance the scouting program from past abuses.  IMHO, it would be a very good update.

Sadly, I see many long time scouters having issues with the change.  But, it's a change that is needed.

Edited by fred8033
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" a change that is needed"  you say.  Because someone in their ignorance might misinterpret it? Seems like an opportunity for them to become educated.   Because a scouter might delude himself and turn into a "little tin god"?   In my experience those who have that bent to their character end up as wannabe dictators no matter what title you give them. Scoutmaster or Scoutadviser. Btw I may well advise an 18 years old and let him make his own choices.  A 10 year old? Not so much.  Or become its [ drumroll ] politically -correct?  Ah here we may well have it. A term straight from the old USSR and Maoist China.  Where truth is often "incorrect " and therefore inadmissible and even unspeakable.  I hear this type of censorship promoted from political figures, indoctrinated students and the occasional mob in the streets.  

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

" a change that is needed"  you say.  Because someone in their ignorance might misinterpret it? Seems like an opportunity for them to become educated.   Because a scouter might delude himself and turn into a "little tin god"?   In my experience those who have that bent to their character end up as wannabe dictators no matter what title you give them. Scoutmaster or Scoutadviser. Btw I may well advise an 18 years old and let him make his own choices.  A 10 year old? Not so much.  Or become its [ drumroll ] politically -correct?  Ah here we may well have it. A term straight from the old USSR and Maoist China.  Where truth is often "incorrect " and therefore inadmissible and even unspeakable.  I hear this type of censorship promoted from political figures, indoctrinated students and the occasional mob in the streets.  

Tradition values the term "scoutmaster".  It's been used for 100+ years.  ... but a different term would be better.  

Yes, I do say a change is needed.  I'm less concerned about the politically incorrect as the misinterpretation.  Many scouters have been trained for years and years.  But all to often, they do forget the role as it's termed "master".  

 

38 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Btw I may well advise an 18 years old and let him make his own choices.  A 10 year old? Not so much.  

17 vs 10 is a consideration, but if the scout is in a troop, then let the scout make his own choice ... as long as it's within the boundaries of safety and reasonableness.  I see little difference advising a 17 year old vs a 10 year old.  ... It all depends on maturity and capability.  And, then we should consider the youth too.  ;) 

 

The reason to keep the term "scoutmaster" is tradition.  The reasons to change it are many.  

Edited by fred8033

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12 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Tradition values the term "scoutmaster".  It's been used for 100+ years.  ... but a different term would be better.  

Yes, I do say a change is needed.  I'm less concerned about the politically incorrect as the misinterpretation.  Many scouters have been trained for years and years.  But all to often, they do forget the role as it's termed "master".  

 

17 vs 10 is a consideration, but if the scout is in a troop, then let the scout make his own choice ... as long as it's within the boundaries of safety and reasonableness.  I see little difference advising a 17 year old vs a 10 year old.  ... It all depends on maturity and capability.  And, then we should consider the youth too.  ;) 

 

The reason to keep the term "scoutmaster" is tradition.  The reasons to change it are many.  

I say again, "nonsense".  Let me add, "rubbish", and "give me a break", and "stop building mountains from molehills".  Tradition has its place, and this is one that deserves to remain.  

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