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Everything posted by fred8033

  1. That's great to hear. Negotiating demonstrates two separate entities. Variance of the charter agreement / by-laws across LCs further demonstrates separate entities.
  2. I intentionally avoided this question earlier. It really inflates this debate drastically. I've always been wondered how legally LCs/COs could buy into bankruptcy protection of without going thru the bankruptcy process themselves. Identifying and prioritizing creditors. Establishing assets and revenue. Confirming whether they can pay their existing debts. etc, etc, etc With prioritized debtors, now how much to pay to clear liens, old debt, new debt, etc.
  3. I'm always interested in policies and procedures. Weird, but true. My projects often live and die with how to interpret policies and procedures. I've read much of the document now. I would have guessed an OA Conclave was not subject to the document to the BSA Accreditation subjects, rather just G2SS. Not council organized. Each OA lodge has it's own conclave with it's own personnel. If it does apply, it seems you need to know the answer in advance to know how to interpret this guide. The guide itself is not a clean statement of what's in scope. Seriously asking: How do I i
  4. The CO has already told you they have other plans / thoughts. If you want the funds to go to a food bank, get the CO approval first. If you do it first on-your-own, it's not a good deed. It's just spite and will cause more trouble. When you decide to move on or you've been told to move on, move on. Don't look back. Don't go for vengeance. Just move on. Find the next best path for you and your kids. Also, don't try to help ... especially if you've already been told they want to make a change. It's their issue now. Yes, you've lost the funds. That is how it works. It
  5. Again, I'm not the lawyer, but there is liability for damages and negligence for not exercising ordinary care. Defining the ordinary expected exercise of care at the time does go to defining negligence ... especially as we talk cases from 40 / 50 years ago.
  6. Yep. That is what we are talking about. And the how much and when is not an automatic one hour discussion and done. This will take months or years to resolve. And if/when LCs and COs are pulled in, it's many more legal cases. This will be ugly for years.
  7. @Eagle1993 ... So what is the liquidation value of The Summit ? I'm directly reading this as one creditor has the vast majority of the debt for that property. I'm reading this as The Summit liquidation value could be less than $100 million if not far less. Also, I'm assuming The Summit is a secured debt where the liquidation value would first pay the creditor secured by the debt. If SeaBase, Northern Tier and Philmont are about $60 million in value and The Summit has such high debt, BSA corporate land assets are much lower than I expected. I expected the land assets to be $700
  8. Ok. So it would be liquidated by some organization or by BSA with agreement ... then the bankruptcy would portion out value across the creditors. BSA handing over the summit to TCC is more rhetoric than process.
  9. Naive question ... but you keep saying just turn the thing over to TCC ... BSA can't do that right ? There are multiple creditors in line? COs. LCs. Girl Scouts. Other victim representatives. Or are you saying TCC gets to take title and sell ... then hand over money to others creditors based on their plan? I ask as one of the key things in business is controlling who has the dollars. Who ever has the dollars in their bank account has a lot of control? During graduate studies I remember dealing with a business man who was talking about a payment his company got accidentally (not me
  10. What is the valuation split? Sea Base and Northern Tier are great, but their properties are pretty small and buildings target youth camper programs. Anyone buying them would need to do a major reconstruction; effectively a tear down and re-build. And some may be blocked from re-use due to restrictions (too near to lake, bordering BWCA, etc) ... I'd guess NT and SB are worth land value minus tear down / cleanup costs. So being under $60M for those two is easily clear. I really expected Philmont to be worth more, but is it protected by national park or is it barren land not in demand
  11. If BSA's argument is right that LCs (and COs) are separate legal entities, they can't drop protection. It's not in their authority. If BSA's argument is not right, they they are not protected. It's not in BSA's control to surrender.
  12. LCs and their representatives will weigh in heavy on that. That one question could take far longer to resolve than trying to decide if high adventure bases are protected.
  13. Even if BSA wants to do right by victims, going out in a blaze of glory is never the smart thing. They have their purpose to continue to serve. They are balancing multiple factors and different legal advice. One person's delay is another's negotiation tactic / strategy.
  14. Only using BOLD to reflect key points for those who SKIM. Agreed. That will be the plantiff's argument. I'm betting the defense would respond ... that "BSA KNEW" but believed they were managing the same issues other organizations that served youth. Schools, YMCAs, churches, youth ministries, etc. The BSA KNEW can be offset by the standard of care of the time. ... So, did they view themselves as dealing uniquely with evil ugliness that many organizations didn't have. If viewing themselves like many other organizations, than the IVF becomes a higher level of care than o
  15. ... only providing BOLD to show my main points ... not raising my voice ... I often skim documents looking for key points ... it helps ... when something peaks my interest, I'll read the surrounding material ... I'm familiar that we have several lawyers posting in this thread. I'm not a lawyer but I am posting as it doesn't seem we are getting valid legal advice representing BSA's best interest. Yes ... we want ... how much and when .... but there is no such thing ... there is no fixed price tag or fixed date. ... depending how motions, arguments, cases, negotations, tr
  16. 64. In an effort to streamline the Restricted Property Action, the TCC has made repeated requests that the Boy Scouts inform it whether it intends to offer evidence at trial to meet its double burdens of proof or if it intends to attempt to convince the Court that Judge Sontchi’s opinions should not be followed. If the former, the TCC has requested the prompt production of the evidence that the Boy Scouts will rely on at trial to meet its burdens of proof. If the latter, the matter may be disposed of by summary judgment. To date, the Boy Scouts has refused to do either. I'm a We
  17. Your points reflect a desire for a one sided presentation which denies the reality of the current day. Your points simply silence opposite views. It's hypocritical to continue to bash BSA and it's leaders yet complain about protests against the $1500 per hour legal fees. Yes. The present and the future will not be better because of this bankruptcy. Most of these threads just re-hash the same arguements without much enlightenment on the actual bankruptcy.
  18. Welcome to the reality of the legal game. It's how it works.
  19. Your words are well written ... until I see "BSA will never do that..." ... this is where we disagree. Statements like that are explicitly factually wrong. BSA has acknowledged and agreed that a debt is owed for wrongs. They have said that for years now. Absolutely acknowledge that the sharing of abuse statements from the past is helpful. That's good to hear. Just don't compound a useful statement with yet another accusation that damages the information exchange in this forum.
  20. Don't insensitively infer we are not aware of the ugliness of evil. Don't insensitively infer we are cold or dare us to read. We've read. We're aware. Many of us have opinions that these evils succeeded in an era of ignorance by all of society with many, many, many groups sharing fault. We're not saying it's good or acceptable. Evil has always existed and it's always been ugly. This is a forum for discussion. It can be done without slandering others. I really do suggest you lock these threads. It helps no one.
  21. Hmmm ... I trust you are refering to something like this ... See FS-601 Food Standards https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/2019-National-NCAP-Standards.pdf It's obviously a good idea. It's a good tool also to use for self reflection on your menus. BUT, does it explicitly apply as a strict rule to a OA conclave? When I read page 6 of the above link, I read think of camps that are run by paid staff and are marketed and advertised as such. I think of $1200 Sea Base, $1200 Philmont, $300+ council week long summer camps, $100+ webelos summer camps, council
  22. The only reason I suggest a camps with regular volunteer led activities open to both scout patrols and lone scouts (aka family scouting) is that times have changes. Many parents won't back away from their kids and recognize kids need to solve their own issues. So the question then becomes, is there a way we can show value to those scouts where the parents won't back away from their kids? Maybe the camp master could setup a time where the camp master would be willing to observe and sign-off on seeing a youth setup a tent and understand what is needed. Maybe, another youth could cook d
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