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Mich08212

Denied a court of honor.

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39 minutes ago, Mich08212 said:

Ok, This words that were used by the SM was DENIED.  so thats why Im using these words here.

As for the explaining, I have spent over an hour explaining to others the situation. Please read through the feed.

Yes I want a COH for my Son. Yes I want to get to the bottom of this.   Just saying they wont have a COH for my son is not good enough. There needs to be a viable reason and the reason should be presented. period.

 

33 minutes ago, Mich08212 said:

It is bizzare and I believe it was council that said no to the COH. and I agree, why deny the celebration.

There is an approval process for Eagle. First there is the BOR. Once that is completed and signed off, then it goes to council and national. The purpose of that is to review records and make sure everything in is order on the council level, and pro forma at National.

If the council is sayin no, something may be wrong regarding the records, and a simple updating of the records may work. I know of 2 cases where the council either had the wrong dates for the various ranks (my case) or had incomplete records ( one of my Eagles)  I was denied  my  Eagle after the BOR until I was able to submit my handbook with all the signatures which updated the records. My Eagle was able to submit copies of his handbook, as  well as advancement reports to update the council's records.

 

A more serious problem which happened this year to one of my Eagles. His entire Eagle project book and application was "not turned in" after the board of review. We discovered this 3 months after the fact when I inquired for him. Thankfully, the district advancement chair requires 3 copies of the Eagle application ( Scout copy, unit copy, and council copy) and 2 copies of the service project book (Scout copy and council copy) so that the Eagle was able to resubmit the completed paperwork.

 

6 minutes ago, Mich08212 said:

Yes he turned 19 this past june.

Hes been in scouts since he was 6 years old.  so I dont understand when you ask if he registered as an adult. 

Yes I believe that this committee is trying to make one.

I just emailed the SM to get his take on this.  He didnt give a reason just said that he fought for my son for it.

How old was he when he had his Eagle Board of Review?

It sound like he had the BOR when he was 18 years, 4  months. If that is the case, He would be ineligible for an Eagle BOR without NATIONAL (emphasis) approval. That happened to one of my Eagles. He was unable to get an EBOR before 18 years, 3 months due to boot camp. He was 18 years, 3 months and 1 day old. Came straight home from boot camp to the EBOR only tpo be told he missed it by a day. He had to appeal to national, get approval, and then conduct the EBOR. He earned Eagle, but never had an ECOH because by the time everything was done and approved, he went active duty.

 

Sounds like a paperwork issue on the council level is the problem. Your son should have received a letter why his Eagle was not approved and the process to appeal it if that is the case. I'd start calling council.

Edited by Eagle94-A1

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4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

There is an approval process for Eagle. First there is the BOR. Once that is completed and signed off, then it goes to council and national. The purpose of that is to review records and make sure everything in is order on the council level, and pro forma at National.

If the council is sayin no, something may be wrong regarding the records, and a simple updating of the records may work. I know of 2 cases where the council either had the wrong dates for the various ranks (my case) or had incomplete records ( one of my Eagles)  I was denied  my  Eagle after the BOR until I was able to submit my handbook with all the signatures which updated the records. My Eagle was able to submit copies of his handbook, as  well as advancement reports to update the council's records.

 

A more serious problem which happened this year to one of my Eagles. His entire Eagle project book and application was "not turned in" after the board of review. We discovered this 3 months after the fact when I inquired for him. Thankfully, the district advancement chair requires 3 copies of the Eagle application ( Scout copy, unit copy, and council copy) and 2 copies of the service project book (Scout copy and council copy) so that the Eagle was able to resubmit the completed paperwork.

 

How old was he when he had his Eagle Board of Review?

It sound like he had the BOR when he was 18 years, 4  months. If that is the case, He would be ineligible for an Eagle BOR without NATIONAL (emphasis) approval. That happened to one of my Eagles. He was unable to get an EBOR before 18 years, 3 months due to boot camp. He was 18 years, 3 months and 1 day old. Came straight home from boot camp to the EBOR only tpo be told he missed it by a day. He had to appeal to national, get approval, and then conduct the EBOR. He earned Eagle, but never had an ECOH because by the time everything was done and approved, he went active duty.

 

Sounds like a paperwork issue on the council level is the problem. Your son should have received a letter why his Eagle was not approved and the process to appeal it if that is the case. I'd start calling council.

Hev was approved for Eagle. He has his certificate and medal.

He finished his project and paper work was submitted the day of his 18th birthday.

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My only suggestion is to NOT email anyone. Instead call them, or better speak face to face. Electronic communication appears efficient, and is, to disseminate information. It is wholly inadequate for discussion and conversations. Do call, and either set up appountments to discuss in person or on the phone. Otherwise you run a serious risk of being misunderstood at worst, and at best taking longer to get the answers you seek.

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46 minutes ago, Mich08212 said:

Yes he turned 19 this past june.

Hes been in scouts since he was 6 years old.  so I dont understand when you ask if he registered as an adult.

Yes I believe that this committee is trying to make one.

I just emailed the SM to get his take on this.  He didnt give a reason just said that he fought for my son for it.

When the troop re-charters (probably happened in October/November if yours is like most) any 18 year old will be dropped from the roster unless he:

  • Fills out an adult application for Assistant Scout Master or Unit College Scouting Reserve.
  • Completes youth protection training.
  • If ASM, completes Introduction to Outdoor Leaders Skills or obtains a waiver in a timely fashion.

If he did not do this -- if he is nether ASM or UCSR -- he is no longer on the roster. If the committee does not want to make time in the troop schedule to recognize someone who is no longer a member, it's their call. No DE would gainsay them.

Would any BSA professional care if a troop has a ECoH for a scout who is no longer on the roster? No. But, would they want to intervene here? No. I would not waste your breath calling a DE. You did the right thing asking for more info from the SM.

Good luck.

Edited by qwazse

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I agree totally.   I did put out some emails today and there really is only 1 person that is efficient at helping so far and thats the DE> 

I will be placing calls.  Thank you so much.

Love your screen name!

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1 hour ago, Mich08212 said:

Yes I want a COH for my Son. Yes I want to get to the bottom of this.   Just saying they wont have a COH for my son is not good enough. There needs to be a viable reason and the reason should be presented. period.

If they haven't given you an explanation by now, they probably never will. 

 

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I feel like a lot of information is missing, but I would suggest contacting (in order):

-Scoutmaster
-Troop Committee Chair
-Chartered Organization Representative (the troop "belongs" to the Charter Organization)

You said that it was your council who denied the Eagle COH?  The council is not normally involved in the ECOH.

Who was involved in the decision to deny the ECOH?  Troop committee?  District?  Council?

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4 hours ago, shortridge said:

The CoH is completely optional and at the unit’s discretion. There are definitely some details missing here.

If the SM is refusing to do it, what do you hope to accomplish by trying to get Council to force him? That’s could create a major fight and lead to bad blood and the severing of relationships.

Why did your son take nine months to initiate contact? Was he not going to troop meetings during that time?

If you do choose to push this forward, I would strongly encourage you to reconsider your attitude that your son “deserves” the CoH. That will definitely turn off many people who might otherwise be on your son’s side. No one deserves a CoH, and as you’ve seen in this thread, the practice differs unit to unit.

I would also suggest that your son, not you, take the lead in conversations. He’s an Eagle Scout and can handle a mature phone call with an adult.

Also, there’s nothing stopping your son from holding a CoH on his own. Renting a state park campsite, holding a campfire with some Dutch oven treats for refreshments, and a simple ceremony is just as impactful as anything else.

Short Ridge - I know I'm coming in late on this but I have to take exception to your statement that no one deserves a Court of Honor.  Every Scout - at every level - deserves a Court of Honor if they have moved up in rank.  A Tenderfoot earning Second Class deserves a court of honor.  An Eagle Scout?  Definitely deserves a Court of Honor.  That's a big part of the program - and should never be ignored.

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So putting together a timeline:

June 2017, he finishes his eagle application, turns in paperwork, etc.

He turns 18. (Note, when he turns 18 he is no longer a scout unless he registers as an adult)

(probably July) 2017, he finishes his eagle BOR, gets the award, certificate, patch, ribbon, etc.

Fall 2017 he goes off to college.

Summer 2018, he gets told no ECOH run by the troop.

 

Is that all correct? I am curious why an ECOH didn't happen in august 2017 right before he went off to college. That would be the most logical time.

Coming back over a year after leaving scouts (remember he left scouts the day he turned 18) asking for a big event might not be looked at favorably. Its an expense of time and money for a non-member.

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2 hours ago, Mich08212 said:

I appreciate your response. thank you so much!

Love the design of your COH.  Very nice. Love it!

It is bizzare and I believe it was council that said no to the COH. and I agree, why deny the celebration.

And of course it will be addressed in a professional matter.

I really feel that at this point its not just about my son.  I believe if they are going to do this with other Hardworking Eagles that this needs to be addressed immediately. I am all for making changes and I stand up for the under dogs.

You've mentioned a couple of times that you think it was the Council that denied the Court of Honor .  The Council is not involved in Courts of Honors - unless someone from the Council is invited as a guest at the Court of Honor.  The Council does not approve or deny Courts of Honor.  A Court of Honor is a unit function - not a Council function.  Neither is it a District function - if some clown at Council or the District told me that I couldn't hold a Court of honor for one of my Scouts, that person would find themselves on the wrong end of an epic verbal smackdown..

If anyone denied the Court of Honor it was the Troop (either the Scoutmaster or the Committee) or the Chartered Organization.  Most CO's aren't engaged enough to deny someone a Court of Honor - and most would be ticked pink to have a Court of Honor for an Eagle Scout in a unit they sponsor.   If the Scoutmaster gave you the impression that the denial came from anywhere other than the Troop (or CO), then he is not being 100% honest with you.  I know someone mentioned that you should do this in person - me?  I would e-mail the Scoutmaster and copy the Scout Executive at the Council, the head of the Chartering Organization (not the COR unless that person is also the head of the organization) and if you can get their e-mail addresses, the Council Advancement Chair and the Council President and without going in to a lot of detail ask two very simple questions.  Don't let any anger show, don't expound - just ask the question - I would word it like this:

Dear Mr. Scoutmaster,

I have two questions about your statement to my son in a meeting that his Eagle Scout Court of Honor was denied:

!)  Who denied the Court of Honor

2) Why did they deny the Court of Honor

I await your response.

That will surely get someone's attention.  Give them a few days to respond - if you haven't heard back, resend it to them and include the editor of the local paper - I guarantee that will light some fires.

Your son deserves his Court of Honor - and yes, you can do it on your own if you want - but I've got to say, this is a really poor way for the Unit to treat your son after all those years in Scouting.

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2 hours ago, Mich08212 said:

Hev was approved for Eagle. He has his certificate and medal.

He finished his project and paper work was submitted the day of his 18th birthday.

Not to be overly picky, but, in my council if paperwork was submitted on the day of a scouts 18th birthday it would be a day too late.  

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8 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Not to be overly picky, but, in my council if paperwork was submitted on the day of a scouts 18th birthday it would be a day too late.  

The Eagle Scout application is not required to be completed prior to the Scout's 18th birthday.  Your council is not following the Guide to Advancement, which specifically says that signatures (on the Eagle Scout Rank Application form) "need not be dated before the Scout’s 18th birthday."

Edited to add:

The Guide to Advancement also says:  "There is no requirement that the application must be completed or submitted before the 18th birthday.  Councils do not have the authority to reject applications submitted on or after that date."

Edited by Thunderbird

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51 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

Short Ridge - I know I'm coming in late on this but I have to take exception to your statement that no one deserves a Court of Honor.  Every Scout - at every level - deserves a Court of Honor if they have moved up in rank.  A Tenderfoot earning Second Class deserves a court of honor.  An Eagle Scout?  Definitely deserves a Court of Honor.  That's a big part of the program - and should never be ignored.

You are absolutely correct, sir. What I meant to say and should have said more plainly is that no one is entitled to a CoH paid for and sponsored by the unit. I conflated the terms in my head. My general point was more to the attitude and approach of the OP. “My son deserves this” sounds awfully demanding and off-putting to many people.

If @malraux‘s timeline is correct, then I would re-emphasize that the former Scout should be fighting this fight for himself. He’s an adult and can communicate with other adults. That might also get a better and more prompt reply from others at higher levels. We’ve all dealt with special snowflake parents demanding things for their kids; direct outreach from a (former) Scout themself may get speedier action and a warmer response.

Edited by shortridge
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1 hour ago, Thunderbird said:

The Eagle Scout application is not required to be completed prior to the Scout's 18th birthday.  Your council is not following the Guide to Advancement, which specifically says that signatures (on the Eagle Scout Rank Application form) "need not be dated before the Scout’s 18th birthday."

Edited to add:

The Guide to Advancement also says:  "There is no requirement that the application must be completed or submitted before the 18th birthday.  Councils do not have the authority to reject applications submitted on or after that date."

Well, it's been a few years since I walked one through the process.  Beyond that, this site, https://bobwhiteblather.com/guide-to-advancement-2017/, suggests the signatures after the scout's birthday is a relatively new option.  I can't really comment on what was or wasn't in conflict with the Guide.  I can only say what was.

The Guide to Advancement is 100 pages long and it doesn't include the Eagle workbook or application.  Gak.  No wonder everybody's lawyered up all the time (no offense @NJCubScouter)

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5 hours ago, Mich08212 said:

I agree that they cant deny a ECOH.   And it is strange how they had no problem signing off on Eagle and now have and issue with COH.  This is what I want to get to the bottom of.

I can see why National wouldn't want to get involved. When I find out exactly what the ridiculous reason is I will contact National.  There was one guy in particular that just gave my son a really hard time and even caused a fight because he got insulted for asking how we could speed up the process to get his Eagle project done.  It was so crazy.  I actually had to laugh because it was a mere question. So, I suspect this person is the reason for this.  Why he has to make things so crazy and picks out certain boys from the crowd is beyond me.  But my son has been singled out here and for reasons that I will get to the bottom of. This guy should not be involved with scouting whats so ever and should be dismissed.

What is a DE?   District Executive?

oh and I believe it was council that denied it.

Yes, Im going to plan my own ECOH. These certain individuals I wouldnt want them to be a part of my circle thats for sure. To sign off on the paperwork and deny a COH to any Eagle is atrocious!! despicable and shows very little character.

I will take your advice and find out who these people are. Thank you.

 

Things can certainly differ, but here in MA, council's have nothing to do with a CoH.  It's a troop function, but the way it occurs differs by troop.  As others mentioned, some troop have funds to help pay for it, others do not.  Some have a group celebration once a year, others leave it to the parents to plan.  There also isn't a 100% iron clad Eagle CoH ceremony that must occur- troops have different traditions, etc.  for my son, it is tradition in his troop that each Eagle gets their own CoH, the parent plans it, chooses location and makes sure it is booked, pays for whatever refreshments/food will be available.  Troop only pays for the award presentation kit.  

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