WAKWIB Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 There was a time when I felt that the local option regarding adult membership policy was a workable solution. However, after reading the attached memorandum, I get the sense that it may be quite a legal minefield that few, if any, churches will want to navigate.http://www.traillifeusa.com/Resources/25891.pdf (Note: The author of the memo served as legal counsel at BSA for 11 years and is currently the chief legal counsel for Trail Life USA.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torchwood Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 It would be interesting to hear the opinion of a Constitutional scholar, as opposed to that of a labor and employment attorney. I am not saying he is either correct or incorrect, but Constitutional law is not this guy's stock in trade, and it is a very specialized area of the law (which is why so few attorneys can actually argue a case infromnt of SCOTUS). It is food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2Eagle Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The memo is a bit long on assertions and short on legal analysis to back them up. Both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church appear to be OK with the BSA legal position; if they're not worried then no one else should be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 A "Trail Life" lawyer trying to frighten established CO's with worst case scenario's with from conjecture and personal opinion. The fact, as noted above, that he is not a Constitutional Law expert adds to this concern. By doing this, he very likely hopes to scare some to come over to "Trail Life". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Reads to me like a pre-curser to a marketing piece to churches from Trail Life suggesting they abandon the BSA ship for the floundering Trail Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Is Trail Life really floundering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00Eagle Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I think something workable will occur. Churches get a ministerial exception from employment laws. For units that are "closely held" (as opposed to units with nominal connection to the CO) I see no difference between chartering a scout troop and hosting an AWANA or Royal Rangers, they're ministries of the church. A church that applies standards for AWANA leaders, youth ministers, Sunday School teachers and pastors can apply the same standards to their scout leaders. I think the problem is the public perception of scouting does not realize there are closely held units operated as youth ministries and assumes that troops are owned and directed by BSA National. Perhaps BSA needs to focus more on public education on how it "franchises" scouting. I also expect there will be some units that aren't church sponsored that will adopt new standards and policies for leaders that don't specifically exclude homosexuals but will act to. I expect to see more units restrict leadership positions to parents of youth members. It won't stop the scouts "two moms" from applying and will also have the negative side effect of turning away young single scouters (usually recent alumni of the troop). Some units may go "closed" and create their own sponsoring organizations and restrict membership to children of members (and make sure CO members meet their standards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Is Trail Life really floundering? Doesn't look like it. They reported 20,000 in their first year and have added another 5,000 according to a few different reports so far for 2015. Lord knows how many they will add after today. Unless membership was dropping I wouldn't classify it as floundering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The article didn't discuss "in-name-only" church-owned units. My gut feeling is that they're vulnerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG172 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Is Trail Life really floundering? Their numbers are growing, thats for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Is Trail Life really floundering? That is not my impression (but note: I am not involved with Trail Life). Although most people leaving the BSA seem to be quitting scouting altogether -- otherwise you would see TLUSA etc. membership numbers in the 100,000s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdidochas Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 There was a time when I felt that the local option regarding adult membership policy was a workable solution. However, after reading the attached memorandum, I get the sense that it may be quite a legal minefield that few, if any, churches will want to navigate. http://www.traillifeusa.com/Resources/25891.pdf (Note: The author of the memo served as legal counsel at BSA for 11 years and is currently the chief legal counsel for Trail Life USA.) I'd be leery of his opinions. It's better for him if a Troop decides to give up on Boy Scouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Since he opens with a sweeping generalization "For its first 100 years “morally straight†meant to the BSA that homosexuals could not be members ..." to combine the early periods where the ban may have been implicit vs. the past three decades when it was explicit, it's hard to tell which of his other arguments are painted with too broad a brush. I do not believe that he is trying to set up Trail Life as a safe haven for a CO looking for a program with restrictive recruiting practices. TL has the same exposure as the BSA in New York. When it is large enough to own its camps and hire staff, the D/A will come knocking. I do believe that the local option will be challenged as soon as some CO forces a leader's dismissal or denies membership on any grounds other than religious or criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Whether the TLUSA Lawyer is biased or not, it doesn't change this reality from the NYT article I posted in the other thread (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/27/us/boy-scouts-expected-to-end-ban-on-gay-leaders.html?_r=0): “It’s a great day for America and for scouting,†David Boies, a prominent lawyer, said of Monday’s expected decision. His firm helped create pressure for change, threatening to sue the Boy Scouts if the organization tried to bar a gay Eagle Scout from a camp job this summer in New York. But Mr. Boies added: “I think this will be a way station on the road to full equality,†and he questioned whether the exemption for religious sponsors could endure." I believe now that the SJWs have the BSA in full retreat they'll only keep pushing. This will remain ugly for years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter99 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 When the know-betters in New York council or some martyr McGrath or Tessier intentionally get rejected (again) and the lawsuits start, I would not be surprised in the least to see Catholics, Mormons, traditionally-minded Methodist, and the remaining Baptist units break off. Smallfry conservative denominations like Salvatian Army, African Methodist, etc. will peel away piecemeal. They'll re-tool their own programs (such as Royal Ambassadors) to be more appealing to young men, or may well align with Trail Life. Trail Life might supplant denominational programs like Royal Ambassadors. LDS is big enough to simply form its own organization. You may see global denominations like Catholics join the religiously-segregated Scouting movements of France similar to the way that conservative Episcopal congregations have been joining African dioceses. BSA gets left with what out of 100,000 units? 5,000 of 10,000 Methodist troops, 3500 Presbyterian units, 1200 Episcopal units, and some fraction of the various smallfry denominations, along with some fraction of civic groups, some fraction of private schools and PTAs, and some fraction of "friends of" groups. BSA might gain 11 more Jewish troops if the Reformed Jewish body rescinds its strongly-worded suggestion that reform synagogues not associate with Scouting. Good luck, BSA, hope Disney and UPS come through with that cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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