Eagle94-A1

While I've never stepped down as a SM, I did step down as Cub Scout Day Camp Program Director (and de facto camp director). Couple of ideas iunclude: 1) Develop a hobby 2) Do some fun things with the family

I too am worried about the OA. Neither one of my sons who are eligible are interested. The loss of the Native American theme, the spirit of the OA, is slowly dying. And in all honesty, I can no longer do the things I have done in the past to revitalize and reinvigorate chapters I have worked with as it has always been AIA and Ceremonies.

Just read that section and noticed spears and blowguns are prohibited because they supposedly serve no program purpose. I beg to differ. as MIkeS72 points out Indian Lore has uses for those items, and I have had folks build them in the past. And I have seen them as activities for the OA. Further both had applications for Wilderness Survival. This is extremely silly.

One of the reasons why I stepped down as camporee chief is because of the complaints BY THE ADULTS ( emphasis) on some of the events. #1 complaint I got before and during the wilderness survival themed camporee was the shelter building event. This was an event the Scouts wanted, and was done once at a council camporee long, long ago.I cannot tell you how many adults complained it was not feasible, it would take up too much time, there are not enough materials at camp for each patrol to do one, etc. With those complaints, and a bunch of other problems going on with the camporee, I said fine, one shelter per troop and part of the campsite inspection instead of a separate event. Then the Scouts complained that only a select few got to build shelters. As for the Camporee Guide, that is a new one for me too.

While I've seen SMs introduce the Eagle candidate, although that has only been in of of the council's I've been in, why do the parents need to accompany the Scout, especially since they are not allowed to sit in the EBOR?

All of this could could have been avoided if GSUSA went with Girl Guides like the BSA requested way back when. It could have also been avoided if we won the court case against the GSUSA for infringing on the term Scouts.

I agree, but will add there needs to be consistent enforcement by all involved. There have been a series of meetings and talks with the parents, but there has been no enforcement. That has been where some of the problems lie.Some of the adults didn't see the problems as a big deal until they grew. Some of it was that these new families got into positions where the troop, and in my case the district camporee, depended upon them too much. Troop depended upon them to run a fundraiser. A camp out was canceled in order to do the fundraiser, and it fell through: no camp out or fundraiser happened. One dad was suppose to run what was suppose to be a major display at camporee for since he is a national certification in wilderness survival. He was causing a problem at camporee, on Friday night after taps, and threatened to leave. He didn't care that not only was I counting on him for this event, but two districts of Scouts were depending upon him to honor his commitment. I backed down. In retrospect I wish I would have told him bye. He not only didn't honor his commitment fully by creating the display he said he would and manning his event the entire day, but also complained when Scouts stopped showing up since the first patrols spread the word that the display was not there since it wasn't built. When I stopped by that afternoon, 1/2 the stuff he said he would have up was not up. In all honesty the site looked like something my middle son's Webelos den did for Castaway Activity Badge instead of something from a certified wilderness survival instructor from some outdoor school. These two families have the attitude that if they do something, it is there way or they leave.They do not care what the PLC, SM or ASMs in charge want, it is there way or the highway. Another update. Apparently there is a series on back and forth messages between the two families involved and the SM. They still do not believe the CO got involved in this matter, despite the COR attending the meeting just in case there were such questions as why the church got involved. They are now saying the CO's policies violate Guide to Safe Scouting. They are using this line "All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders. The BSA does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program." to say the troop is violating YP. I guess they are not taking into account "All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive." nor the fact that the CO can make stricter rules on who their leaders are.

Update with the old troop. As you all know, I still have friends with them. Heck the SM, an ASM, and I are suppose to be backpacking together in a few weeks. So I am still hearing about them. Last night was the parents meeting about the new policies. THE PARENTS DON'T GET IT! (emphasis) Apparently they have concerns about possible first aid situations ( multiple Scouts have FA MB, several adults have basic FA, 2 have WFA, one adult is a RN and another is a MD, I think they have FA covered). And another does not see why she cannot follow her son around on camp outs just for the day. SHE DOES NOT GET THAT THE OTHER SCOUTS IN THE TROOP DO NOT WANT HER, HER SON, AND OTHER UNTRAINED ADULTS AROUND! (emphasis) while messaging amongst my friends, I reminded them that the son almost lost his head on the catapult course because he was interfering with the patrol ( mom was there but not watching son) and that her husband violated range rules by coming to a hot firing line without permission. Not to mention the fact that the husband took over the QM's job and completley ignored the Patrol Method or the other adult countermanding the SPL so that together it took 2 to 3 times as long to set up camp in the rain than it would normally take. My friends are predicting the two main problem families will leave. They are joking around saying they are going to send them to my new troop. The unfortunate thing is that one family will probably leave that has not caused problems. Long story short, Mom is extremely protective of her son, and wants dad to camp. Dad is a former Scout, know how things are suppose to be, and when bothered by his son tell him to go see his PL or "Go away you horrible Scout." So dad is basically there to relax and keep Mom happy. with the new rules, he can no longer camp, and Mom is not happy. That family I would not mind coming to my new troop as they have the right attitude: let the son do his thing and not interfere. Several cans of beer and a bottle of Scotch were opened by my friends once they got home after dealing with the parents. How many times must you do this before it gets through to them. This sis something like the 6th time in an 18 month period. And they still cannot believe the COR got involved in withthis topic this time.

I agree that the CO should be concerned. SM needs to be active. And over 21 because there are a lot of legalese involved. If the SM cannot be involved, you really need someone over 21 to be in charge. There can indeed be some serious liability issues too. HOWEVER While he is not the Scoutmaster, he IS an Assistant Scoutmaster as approved by the CO and the SM. The parents need to accept his directions as if those directions came from the SM because the ASM works under the SM. If the parents have a problem they need to see the SM and/or COR about this. BUT THEY NEED TO FOLLOW THE ASM'S DIRECTIONS UNTIL THEY DO SO. (emphasis, not shouting). I've been in the situation where I was the defacto acting SM as a 19 and 20 year old ASM instead of the 21+ year old ASM. Sadly our society treats young adults like children still. Not only through Scouts, but also studying military history, I can tell you that teenagers and young adults can meet the challenges of adulthood. Anyone hear of William H. Johnston or Jacklyn Harrell "Jack" Lucas?

Agree 110% on this. Since I've never seen it before AND @qwazse asked us to use emojis, I had to pick the "Gag me with a spoon" emoji.

This is what I have done. I've begun the "Cub Scout to Boy Scout" transition as soon as possible when I was a DL, usually Tiger year. At PWD, I'd point out to both Cubs and parents the Scouts helping out. If I had a Den Chief, work with them to let them run meetings. My council has council camporee and Cub Family Camp the same weekend. Areas are specified either Boy Scout or Cub Scout with a common midway area. Take my Cubs to the midway obviously, but I also take them to watch any Boy Scout events between the midway and Cub Scout area. I focus on how the Scouts are doing things for themselves, pointing out key things, and if possible have the Scouts talk to the Cubs and their parents. Webelos I is the big year. This is when the focus shifts from the parents doing things for them to the Webelos doing things for themselves. Constantly reminding parents to wait it out and LET THEM FAIL (emphasis). We have a council Webeloree, think of camporee for the Webelos, and they compete in different events just like the Boy Scouts. For those Webelos dens that are doing things for themselves, this is a great opportunity for them and they surprise a lot of parents. Sadly many WDLs continue to treat Webelos as Cub Scouts. They are allowing parents to help and do things instead of letting the Webelos try things on their own. And these are the parents I have had problems with. What I have seen done. SM and/or CC riding herd on the new adults, keeping them occupied and away from the Scouts. They also mentored and explained why things are done a certain way. I know I always hated when we got a new Cross Overs because it took some time for the SM, CC, and ASMs to "deprogram" the Cub parents. As a Scout, it infuriated me when parents interfered with what I was doing in regards to my patrol and troop. What is key IMHO. 1) NEED TO LISTEN TO THE SCOUTS!!!!!!!!!!! (major emphasis) If the Scouts are having problems with the new adults, and they are coming to you about it, IT NEEDS TO BE ACTED UPON ASAP! If the problem continues, you will lose the Scouts' interest and lose the Scouts. 1a) Watch the body language and listen to their tone of voice if discussing this problem in a group. We did this one time. and while several Scouts were not shy about talking about the problems, several did have problems talking about it in a group. When talking to me privately, they were in agreement with the problems. In a group situation, they became listless, and would not look people in the face when they said there were no problems. Also their tone of voice changed to monotone also puppet like quality. 2) Key adults need to come up with a plan to protect their Scouts and follow through with it. A unified vision and approach to keeping new adults out of the Scouts way is very important. If there is no consistency, then the problems will continue. 3)If there is a problem, it needs to be corrected immediately. Allowing things to keep happening only makes it worse over time.

Wanted to give an update, especially since @CodyMiller351 posted about a problem Scouter and this may help him out. My boys and I leaving was indeed the catalyst for the troop's core adults to start fixing things. Even the COR got involved as he heard grumblings from the Scouts about too many adults at the BORs he conducted. The core adults know why I actually left, and not the polite reason I am giving everyone, which is indeed true, but not the complete reason. And they too have heard some grumblings from the youth. The core adults met, discussed the issue, and came out with some rules to not only limit the number of adults on a camp out, but also limit the number of adults that can interfere with a patrol. Basically there are 2 adults assigned to each patrol. Not perfect IMHO, but it is an improvement. New adults must be on the committee for a minimum of a year and complete troop committee training before the end of their first year in order to continue in that role. In order to be an ASM you must be on the committee, complete troop committee training, complete SM and ASM Specific Training, complete ItOLS , AND there has to be an opening ASM position. Exception to this is the 18-20 year old ASMs since that cannot serve on the committee until 21. They then went to the COR, who has heard some grumblings from the Scouts on this matter. Again when he found out my boys and I left over this issue, I think it was a wakeup call for him. COR approved the changes. When it was announced, there were a lot of grumblings from two families, and a parents' meeting has been requested to go over this. These folks do not understand how the COR got involved, and think it is the core leadership singling them out. They do not understand how their actions are hurting not only their sons' experiences, but everyone else's. While I am glad the changes are finally happening, I wish it would have come a lot earlier. I am praying for the troop's success in this matter.

If memory serves, 1935 was when the position of Den Mother was created, and women were first allowed to volunteer. Prior to that Den Chiefs were the defacto den leaders. Prior to Sea Exploring and Exploring going coed, ladies were allowed to attend activities and participate as guests only. 1969 sounds about right. I thought 1973 was when girls were allowed into Sea Exploring and Exploring officially, but if @emb021 's website says 1971, I defer to him. as he is the expert.

If my comments seem ageist, please bear with me as that is not the intent. In fact I was in similar shoes once long ago. Your age is both a curse and a blessing. A curse in that you will encounter adults who will ignore you, be condescending to you, and outright rude to you all because of your age. But it is also a blessing you close enough to the Scouts' ages that you can relate to them, be a confidant and mentor them You probably have more influence over the Scouts than the other adults do, and more than you even realize. While you cannot change the adults, use that influence over the Scouts to create a program the Scouts wants. As for your relationship with the official SM/.grandfather, he may be grumpy , but if he has dealt with these problems in the past, you can probably understand why. It is not a fun situation. You may want to take him to a "neutral" place like a coffee shop, restaurant, etc and have a chat with him about everything going on, make sure he knows what is going on. You need to get him aboard with what your vision is since you are the defacto SM. You are also going to need allies in the other adults who agree with you. Once you get granddad behind you, you need to meet with the other adults who agree with you and get a unified statement. Get your COR behind it too. Then confront the adult causing problems. Good luck

As someone who has dealt with this type of adult i can tell you this : IF YOU DO NOT NIP IT IN THE BUD NOW, IT WILL GET WORSE! (caps, bold, and underline for MAJOR emphasis, not shouting). My sons and I just left a troops with adults like this. Unfortunately I was not the SM and was unable to nip it in the bud. Problem grew and grew until SM and others were fed up with the adults acting like you mentioned.

I'm late to this campfire, so bear with me. 1) I agree that each patrol member needs a job, or more specifically a set of duties. It does not need to be formal, i.e. patrol scribe, QM, etc, but rather based upon the needs of the patrol and abilities of the patrol members, i.e. best man for the job does it. And those duties can be rotated around at the discretion of the PL. 2) Regarding CodyMiller351's question, I've seen the Patrol Method work with 3 Scouts several times. Most of the time, it is challenging, especially with new Scouts in a NSP, but it is doable. Growing up, my Leadership Corps patrol varied from 3 to 10. 3) Regarding this comment Sadly when I worked for national, I met a lot of folks with little to no Scouting experience, whether as a youth or adult volunteer, in positions affecting the volunteers and youth. I remember writing a proposal for a pilot program I was doing, and my boss questioned every single item in the proposal. It involved summer camp, and the boss had no clue how summer camps operated since they never went to one as a youth, or staffed one as an adult. I went to them as a youth, and staffed at 4 different camps as an adult. One of the reason why I was hired was due to my experience. Then it was ignored. And I am told it has gotten worse. Now I am told national is focusing on folks with advanced degrees and are "experts" in their fields. Like the national director of training who has a PhD in education but no practical experience in Scouting. Scouting is not suppose to be school, and if you read some of BP's writings, he actually does NOT want school teachers as SMs because it is too easy to go back to their standard school ways.

With two of the troops I was involved in, there were specific color woggles that were worn with the troop necker. With one troop the SM made them, and later me. Troop I just left I made them. Paracord is OK, but I like something a little sturdier. My old woggle was made of white clothesline. Troop I left used red electrical wire. As a Cub Den Leader, depending upon the necker I wore dictated the slide or woggle worn. Some neckers had specific slides, like my 100th World anniversary necker and slide, or my international necker and slide. Most of the time, I wore a woggle. I've done the Friendship Knot twice. Once was with my 1995 WSJ necker. the official jambo slide is too small, and most folks wore the slides on each side of the necker like a necklace. Another time was promoting international Scouting.

1) Did you earn it? Yes, then got for it. No, then stop right there. 2) Are you getting it in khaki, white or navy? Ship's Stores is a great source and supports the Sea Scout community in CA. Here is a link to their knots. https://www.ships-store.com/patches.php I do not see khaki. 3) I have "reproduction" white and navy knots for my Sea Scout uniforms, and do not have any qualms about wearing them. 4) sadly the current China made insignia of today does not match the Made in the USA insignia of yesteryear.

SPL and SM should ask the PL for the Scouts. If they jump in politely remind them that the Scouts are doing their assigned jobs needed for the entire patrol. Sadly this happened in my old troop several times regarding a random adult. One time the random adult stopped a PL from doing his assigned job by the SPL. I saw the confused Scout, asked what was up and he told me one of the parents, whom he could not ID as they were new, told him to stop what he was doing and do something else. I asked who assigned the job to him, the PL told me the SPL. Reminded him the SPL is in the chain of command, and since the adult was not even in uniform, and he had no idea who it was, continue his assignment. Worked out great. Sadly that hadn't been the case. Many times the adults overuled the Scouts or ignored their explanations or questions on the matter. Last time adults pulled that stunt was at camporee. SPL and PLS were trying to get tarps and tents set up in the rain, and 2 parents were contradicting them, and issuing equipment instead of the QM. Long story short, it took 2-3 times longer for the tents to be set up, tarps were set up the next day, and dinner was cooked in a completely separate area because there were no tarps.

Sadly I am seeing too many folks with the attitude, " I don't need training because....." and then give their excuses. I admit, I didn't learn much at the SM Fundamentals Course I took except the paperwork side. But meeting new folks, and modeling the behavior not only helped the other new Scouters, but also gave me a baseline to interact with other adults. On the opposite side of the coin, I have people go through training, then don't have the patience to follow through with it. I have been told " Scouting needs to change with the times," and "it won't work with this group." In both cases, I've shaken the dust off my boots and continued on my trail. As others have mentioned, learning from other expereinced Scouters' stories around the campfire drinking coffee or hot cocoa have provided some of the best lessons on how to be a Scouter.

Actually I am the only MBC willing to work with Scouts outside of their own troop in the district. And it's Chess. I do not know why it would seem as if I am delaying things when the dates I offer I am told do not work for them. That's why I keep asking them to bring a calendar to tell me what days work for them. Heck, when they came up to me on Monday and said they wanted to finish it, the first date I told them was not good for them. When all the dates and times I offer them do not work for them, how else am I suppose to know what is good for them? Part of Scouting is learning time management, and it is part of Personal Management MB. And while it can be challenging for 12 year olds to learn, it can be done if the parents allow their son to take responsibility. My 12 year old uses a paper planner, yes they still make them, and has coordinated stuff on his own. Then again I am not standing beside him telling him what he can or cannot do. I can understand your frustration with roadblocks and advancement. Been there and dealt with it. One reason why as an adult I try to be as accommodating as possible. But it is also frustrating as an adult when you tell someone dates, they say do not work out for them, and then ask them to bring a calendar to schedule stuff to get it done and they do not do it. Add in an bad attitude from the parents , and you may be able to see my frustration. Yep taking deep breaths and calming down. My Eagle showing up is definatley helping. And thank you for the good trip wishes. They are needed. Good idea. May do that for another Scout I am meeting with who is in a rush to finish up Personal Management. This Scout needs it ASAP so he can get Life next week. Then he has 7 months to earn Eagle. Wish I could do it for the Scout in the post above, but I need to pack that nite.

Bear with me as this is a vent. So you all know that I have left a troop because it has been slowing turning into adult led for some time, especially over the past 18 months when two new Scouts, and their families, joined. What they did at camporee and the attitudes they had was the last straw. Well I am the only registered MBC for one MB and I started it with the troop last year. No one has finished it yet, except for my 2 sons and I am NOT going to sign off on them without anyone else getting it. And even then, I want them to talk a little about it with someone else so that it is verified I am not giving them the MB. Anyway, one of the families has been pushing for their son to complete it. First I told them He needs to contact me to schedule. When he finally talks to me, I told him to bring his calendar and we can set up some dates to finish it. 2 months pass and again He come up to me to finish it, and I told him again I need dates to finish it with him. 2 more months pass and I remind him that if he want the MB, he needs to set up some sessions with me. After it was announced I was leaving, dad forces son to talk to me again. I set up an appointment. Well life happens. I am going on a 2 week trip, and I still have not packed for it. Between work, Scouts, and baseball, it's been crazy. Then on top of that, one of my Eagles, whom I have not seen in 20 years, will be passing though my town and is coming to see me this weekend. In fact he is due in any minute. I sent a message that I will need to reschedule in December, which is when I will be back. Mom is ticked off. States that he doesn't want to wait until December and who else can sign off. Told her I do not know of anyone else and what is the rush. FYI, he is a 12 year old Second Class Scout. Told there is no rush, but "we've been working on it" for over a year. I then reminded her that things happen, and I told him to contact me sooner. Also mentioned how one son has been waiting since December to finish it too, and my oldest has been waiting 4 years to finish it as the original MBC passed away. She then proceed to tell me he asked twice, but it can wait since she doesn't want to be augmentative. I politely responded, but boy was I tempted to tell her off. It was extremely hard being freindly and courteous.

YOU GOT GIRL SCOUT CAMPS IN YOUR AREA?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 😁 Seriously though, in my neck of the woods, GSUSA have been closing down camps left and right. There are a handful of GS camps in the entire state. My BSA council alone has 5 camps.

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! 2) I have never heard of a policy as you described. As a youth and as a Scouter, I have always seen Scouts helping out on Eagle projects having it applied to needed advancement service hours.