Eagle94-A1

Because the CO views Scouting as an outreach ministry, they are heavily subsidized by the church. But in order to insure the troop has enough resources, they limit the number to 30, not 36 as I mistakenly stated. They are currently at 32, but since 2 current Scouts will age out shortly, the CO said OK to the 2 extra Scouts. Good question. I don't know. I know when I first brought up my concerns, he said he wanted the troop to be family friendly. I know when it was just him and the late SM, troop could only camp when he was off. And if he had custody, the kids had to come to. Once we got more adults to support the troop, that situation lessened to about once a year.

Thank you all for the support . This has been a tough decision. Just found out one troop is not accepting anyone currently. They are over their limit, but that is because two of their Eagles will age out in the very near future and turn into ASMs. Once they age out, they will become ASMs. IMHO, one of the signs of a good troop is their ability to keep Eagles active to their 18th birthday, and possibly beyond.

Talked to the two older ones with the wife. They see it getting worse, and while they don't want to leave their friends, understand why we want them to transfer to a different troop. One of the nice things about wife being RSO this weekend, she saw all the troops in action. She's in agreement with the two troops I would like to see them in. One may not have any opening as their CO limits them to 36 max. That's her favorite. One troop reminds me of the troop I grew up in, and I hope they pick that one. Plus I know a bunch of their Scouts from when I worked CSDC. I admit, I can't remember all their names, but they all came up to me and said "Hey Mr. Eagle94-a1" and told me how they have been doing this past weekend. Talking to that troop's SM and ASMs this weekend, I found out they are backpacking the section of the AT we were suppose to go on. They invited us to tag along with them. Sadly we have another commitment that weekend. Again I really hope they pick that troop. But it's their choice. And either choice will be better than what we are in now. I just hope one doesn't pick one troop and the other picks the second. Goal for me would be registered as an MC to learn their troop's culture, and "deprogram" any bad habits I picked up. Then move back to ASM. As for taking along others, I do not want to kill the troop. But I do have a feeling we will have at least 3, possibly 5, others moving with us if we leave. And that's 1 ASM and up to 2 MCs leaving as well. I hope with that many leaving, SM and MC get together and fix the troop. I do not want to destroy the troop. I spent 5 years working and building up the troop. I promised the late SM that I would see that the troop would not fold again. But these parents are slowly taking me and the Scouts down. And this year's Webelos 2 parents seem just like the last batch.

Where to begin. As many of you may know, my troop is "family friendly" in that parents and siblings are invited to attend any and all camp outs. Might seem OK, but the interference they are causing is growing. Several times now I' been told by PLs and SPLs that they are trying to get things done, and the parents either contradict what the PLs or SPL is trying to do, or worse, take completely over. This stemmed over to the adult side of things. They have tended to ignore ASMs and do their own thing. This weekend, they ignored the SM and caused so much trouble that the SM was close to cutting off his patch and giving it to them. Not only did it affect the troop, it also affected the Webelos who were invited to camp with us. Sadly the negative and "my way or the highway" attitude of these parents has influenced the Webelos parents and I feel there is no more hope for the troop. Long story short, we did not get our normal campsite for this past weekend. Two families went a day early to set up their tents and cooking pavilions. There was a lot of back and forth and one fo the familiies said that if they have to take down their tent, they will go home. My personal thoughts were 'Well, BYE." For whatever reason, the SM let them stay. where they were at. We informed the Webelos DL what time we were meeting and where we would be camping. Long story short, the den showed up at the camp by themselves, did not check in, and proceeded to set up camp with the 2 families instead of the troop. I ran into them try to tell them they were in the wrong campsite, and was told they didn't care, they were staying where they were at with the 2 families. I left. As you can imagine, everything that was planned by the troop to work with the Webelos and begin integrating them into the troop before they Cross Over in Decemebr went down the toilet. They didn't camp with them. They didn't do any cooking or KP with them, and they barely ate with them. They went into town to buy burgers for lunch, and instead of eating with the troop today were packing up to leave camp ASAP. I've been talking on and off about the problem with the boys and the wife separately. Wife saw what was going on first hand this weekend as she was an RSO for an event. She's fed up more than I am about the situation. We are having a family meeting to discuss moving to another troop.

OH BOTHER! I can't believe I forgot about the Wayback Machine. I spent 30-45 minutes looking for the link, found it, and when it didn't work, forgot about it.Going to review my search history when I get home Sunday.

Yes, national had such a rule circa 2010 or thereabouts Unfortunately the link I fond for it is an Error 404 ( Not Found). I remember it was poorly worded, created a lot of confusion, caused issues with 7 units in my district, and I nearly cancelled CSDC because of it. 7 units are so far out in the boonies, it takes approximately 45 minutes to get to a hospital. Ditto the local Scout camp holding CSDC. I remember a clarification or rewording coming out that medical care = ambulance, not necessarily a hospital. And I'm not a member of the GSUSA, so I was not referencing their rules.

Does anyone know when they took out the "more than 30 minutes from help" rule? I remember when WFA first came out, that requirement was in place as well. I know a few units complained because that 30 minute rule affected their troop meetings.

Never a SM, but long time Scouter. You will definitely need support from your spouse on this. I have had friends get divorced over Scouting, and almost was divorced due to Scouting, albeit as a professional. Everyone has given great advice. Ditto getting your ASMs involved and taking responsibility. You cannot do everything, and need to work with them and trust them.

I hated swimming laps too back in the day. I did it as a 19 year old ASM, and did Approach Breaststroke the entire time except the last lap. That way I could keep an eye on my Scouts doing it with me and motivate them. Drove the lifeguards nuts because I was yapping the entire time. Still remember making a parody of 500 Miles called 500 Yards

WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

Some has already mentioned ALPS Mountaineering. They still make a few external frame packs. My two older hoodlums and wife have externals they got from thrift stores or yard sales. The one I got for the wife was the one I dreamed of getting as a Scout back in the day: Coleman Peak 1 with Ramflex frame. I have a medium A.L.I.C.E. that I started backpacking with and have two 50 milers with. Pack is still usable, and I modified the A.L.I.C.E. frame by using MOLLE 2 belt and straps on her. Joke in the troop growing up was : government surplus. if it's designed to survive combat, it may survive Boy Scouts. I have since upgraded to a large A.L.I.C.E. pack, using the medium as a day pack. But I also have an internal frame pack. I used it a lot more when I played pack mule at cub camp outs. Also use it for backpacking because it is significantly lighter than A.L.I.C.E. Even trying some interesting mods, i.e. using wife's Ramflex frame instead of aluminum A.L.I.C.E. frame, the internal is lighter.

Velcro is your friend. And according to a National Training Newsletter, the tan and green and red an tan trained strips are now interchangeable.

NRA and US Archery are the two main organizations that BSA teamed up with to create the shooting sports program. I believe the National Muzzle Loading Association also teamed up with BSA for blackpowder operations.

One thing I'm trying to think about, when did the outrageous promotions and beading ceremonies start? While the attitudes were around pre- WB21C, i don't remember the beading ceremonies, taking over of campfires, etc until after WB21C came out.

To add, ANYTHING WRITTEN BY WILLIAM "GREEN BAR BILL" HILLCOURT (emphasis). Hillcourt took B-P's Patrol Method, and improved upon it with BP's, and after his death Lady BP's, blessing. The bulk of his writings were published from circa 1929 -1972 when the "Improved Scouting Program came out. It was a disaster. Hillcourt came out of retirement to write another edition of the BSA Handbook in 1979. He also wrote numerous articles for BOYS' LIFE MAGAZINE where he got the sobriquet "Green Bar Bill" Also Eagle dad is spot on with going to Traditional Patrols, aka Mixed Aged Patrols. They were the norm from 1910 - 1989, and many troops still use them because they work.

Not all WBers are horrible. I've worked with many great ones over the years. My SM growing up was WBer. I do not know if he changed how the troop ran as a result of WB or not, but I can count on one hand how many troops I've been in or have interacted with over the years, that compare to my troop under his mentorship. One of my mentors as a 20 year old ASM was a 4 beader on the council level. "Sweet Old Bill" was one who guided and mentored. He listened to folks, why explained things needed to be done, and got it done. But most importantly, he listened to youth and adult alike, whether you had beads or not. And if there was a better way than the way he suggested, he did it the better way with no shame or embarrassment. It was done for the Scouts, and that is what mattered most to him. But to many WBers have negative attitudes towards non WBers. They do not value input because we don't have the beads. They do not value years of experience and training that some volunteers have because they don't wear beads. I've encountered that attitude in the 5 councils I've been in. I've had friends who have encountered that attitude. Many people on this site have encountered it. Sadly it is not a rare occurrence. And then their are the shenanigans and over the top beading ceremonies. Some of the shenanigans WBers do under current YPT guidelines IS hazing.While I may personally disagree with some of the things national now considers "hazing," i.e. cutting corner on the WHITTLING CHIP ( but not the Totin Chip), singing for lost items, some practical jokes, etc. This is done regularly at WB. I remember at one camporee with a WB reunion, one patrol stole another patrol's flag, and making them sing to get it back. I'm sorry, but we need to set the example even if we do not like the policy. Same camporee had an overly long beading ceremony many units started leaving before it was finished, including mine. We left at the 25 minute mark The beading ceremony lasted longer than the OA Call Out Ceremony.

I agree completely. That is the situation I am in. When I taught SM specific and IOLs, I went after the best folks I could to help with the courses. I even had youth staff who i know had the KSAs to do the job to show what a Scout is capable of doing if you "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" And I have folks I see today who are only paying lip service to the patrol method. One troop was nearly annihilated when one of them took over. he told me that "BSA needed to change with the times." Of the 3 NYLT grads he had when he took over as SM, 1 stayed registered to remain in the OA, but never did another thing again with the troop, and 2 transfered to a troop that is a PM troop. Regarding Adults reminiscing about troops of their youth, as I see more and more troops, I realized how lucky I was to have Joe S. as my SM growing up. We were a Youth Led troop. We made mistakes. We had out problems. We were by no means perfect. But we were youth led. SM, and CC for that matter, not only advised and mentored us, but more importantly kept well meaning adults from interfering and ruining the program.

Once upon a time you, WB was two separate courses, one for Cub Scout Trainers, the other for Boy Scouters. And very briefly there was a 3rd course for Explorer Advisers. I do not know the requirements for the Cub Scout Trainer WB course, but the Boy Scout version required completion of all basic training, a minimum of 2 years tenure in a Boy Scout volunteer position (I am told it could be waived only if you aged out as a youth at 18, so an 18 or 19 year old could do it) and be invited. The folks taking the course were experienced Scouters, and the course was to improve themselves and learn and expand their knowledge to bring back and help train their youth to run things. I admit, I am not a WBer. But I went through BA22, and staffed JLTC, and both are based on WB. In fact one of my JLTC staffers took WB 3 months after staffing JLTC. I was unable to take that course and told him I planned on taking the next one. He told me, "Don't waste your time. Everything we taught at JLT is taught and WB. Only difference between the two courses is the ticket." When WB21C came out, they combined to the courses and tried to make it "one size fits all." A lot of important program specific material has been left out that is really needed. And I have seen many folks take WB as Cub Scout leaders, and think they know it all when they move up to Boy Scouts. Powderhorn was originally designed for Venturing as a way for Venturign advisers to learn hor to help their crews plan and execute HA activities. I do not believe it covers a lot of advanced skills . except whatever type of mini HA activity is planned.

Sadly this happens already with some folks. I've encountered folks whose attitude is "If you don't wear beads, you don't know squat." And I agree is does indeed cause drama and problems we don't need. I've seen some extremely experienced and knowledgeable Scouters get frustrated with the attitude and either quit Scouting all together, or just refocus their energy on the unit. Me personally, I get a kick out of using all the WB/NYLT techniques, methods, and language, and getting asked what critter I am. I love the look on folks' faces when I proudly jump into song, "I'm a Cocky Curlew of the Brownsea Camp...." Going over the Patrol Method in online training is not enough. I've seen too many ignore it, misunderstand it, or think it's antiquated and BSA needs to change with he times. Even in the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals Training where you were assigned to a patrol the first full day of class, were part of the same patrol during the second Model Meeting class, expected to have a patrol meeting, then operated as a patrol during the final 3 day weekend class was not enough for some. The Adults in the unit really need to model it, and mentor it. Also the Patrol Method needs to be STRICTLY ENFORCED (emphasis), something that has not been happening in the troop I am in of late. And it's not being enforced under the guise of being "family friendly" as the SM told me. EDITED: That's the irony. He wants to be family friendly, but does not see how doing so is slowly destroying the patrol method and thus the troop.

Communicable diseases are a major threat for camps. One sick camper could possibly shut down an entire camp, and worse. One camp I worked at had a GI bug going around. Over 150 campers ended up in the health lodge at some point that week, and ALL of the camp staff were in the health lodge at some point in a 10 day period. Health department came in to inspect the camp a second time, with the possibility of shutting the camp down. People believed it was either the trading post or dining hall causing the problem. No problems there. Review of the health records showed that it came from one particular troop. Camp thankfully remained open. Fast forward 6 months and talking to my cousin about the issue at camp since her son's troop was there that week. She was saying how awful the GI bug was and how she hated sending her son to camp sick. But since she paid for camp he had to go. 🤬

Yes trying to be positive lately has been hard. One positive is 2 of the 3 patrols know exactly what they have and don't have. So they won't embarass themselves in front of the Webelos next week. Another positive that my sons pointed out is "we know exactly which tents to get that don't have any problems."

She has been to two information sessions the troop has held, plus three family sessions over the past year do to issues that have arisen. Comments overheard from her and hubby is that they don't care, if son is having a problem, they will take care of it. Husband is a registered MC who has been trained. Do not know if she took Boy Scout training as she is not registered with the troop. As far as coaching, yes she and her husband have been coached and counseled multiple times by several ASMs as well as by the SM. Twice she has threatened to transfer to a neighboring troop. When we called her threat, she stays, and calms down for a bit, and then resumes. She has been invited multiple times to stay with us. She will be with the other adults and then wonders off to her son. Except for the last camp out. her son kept coming to her in the adult area. Also she is very distant and standoffish. Sadly the only 2 female committee members the troop has no longer camp due to health issues. We have talked, coached and counseled. Myself and another ASM will not longer deal.

Some of you have read about the litany of challenges I've been facing with troop I'm involved with. Some I am going to try and "Knock it off with them negative waves." and focus on the #1 and #2 reasons I am involved with the troop, my sons, and something positive. Oldest son spoke with his PL at the meeting about taking to time to check on tents and patrol boxes. PL said go for it. When middle son found out, he decided that would be a good thing to do as well. Since he couldn't ask his PL, he assumed it would be OK since he is APL. They found issues with the brand new, only been on 1 troop camp out and borrowed for a family camp out( that turned into a troop camp out after the families went whitewater rafting). BUT they took responsibility for making sure their patrols have what they need for the upcoming camp out. That is what I want my sons to get out of Scouting, more than even earning Eagle: seek and take responsibility to serve others. As for youngest, he finished up everything for his Parvuli Dei religious award. All he needs now is his DL and CM's signatures, and off the application goes. I needed this today.

I always sang " Try a cookie,. buy a cookie get one for free."

Greater Alabama Council got caught and it was major. Sadly their Scout Executive was allowed to retire. And I've seen it happen elsewhere. It really destroyed BSA image in my neckof the woods as it was happening here too. There is an incredible amount of pressure increase membership, and some professionals will do anything to make their goals. One of the reasons I left the profession: I do not play that game. If the girl was automatically registered without filling out an application or paying, I would be VERY concerned.