Eagle94-A1

There are many in my neck of the woods that are so tired of the lies and lack of transparency, that they are hoping that the council mergers happen sooner rather than later. We've already lost one camp, and slated to lose another. Money from those two camps will go to the the main camp' s improvements. And the main camp needs an additional $5 million in improvements, so they willhave a capital campaign,. Either the pros are not telling the board what is going on, or the board has their head in the sand. And considering the last SE was fired by the board, a lot of us think it is the former. It has been leaked a that national will force a lot of camp closures as we supposedly have an overabundance of camps. As for Program Changes, The leaked CHURCHILL PLAN already stated the max age across all programs, Sea Scouts, OA, Exploring, and Venturing will be 18. And while a grass roots movement stymied that, National did state in their press release that they reserve the right to review the age limits in the future. PLEASE! (That's me begging, not shouting ) 90+% of the time, what is heard here, and elsewhere is accurate. I know I have posted stuff from here, including press releases, and have been asked to take them down, even the press releases. I have found out things before pros have. Again there is a major lack of transparency in my council. I hope we survive that long. My council has been of very little help.

I know when the June 2015 Program Changes came out, they started releasing info in January 2015. However when the December 2016 changes came out, they gave no advance warning, including no warning to the committee that created the June 2015 program. There was so little notice when December 2016 came out, that my pack decided to continue using the June 2015 program until the end of the school year since the changes made would have affected the plans we made for the rest of the school year.

@lithigin, It may be considered adding to requirements if you attempt to discuss what was said in the family meeting. I would be extremely ticked off if a counselor attempted to discuss what went on at the meetings with my sons. Don't even get me started at how angry I would be if other Scouts were around for the conversation. Let me summarize what happened a similar situation I encountered regarding Requirement 6.B.2. IT CAUSED AN ARGUMENT AMONGST THOSE INVOVLED (major emphasis). The discussion led to remembering events better forgotten. Folks were accused of making up stuff, and others at the event getting involved, and reliving the nightmare. It was a disaster and the accusation of "airing dirty laundry" was made. As a Family Life MBC, I help them plan it, and make sure they do it. But I ask for no details.

We did a 5 day/4 night summer camp on our own durng COVID. $10/ person was the cost to use the camp for the entire week, and it was a primitive camp. Food was less than $8 a day, and our guys can currently get a weekend for $20. We were able to use another troop's canoes for free. It was well under $100 I would talk to the Scouts and see what they want to do. Also make sure the schedule is flexible. The only thing we had fixed is Thursday Night BORs because we had committee members drivng in to do them. Our bike trek took longer than scheduled, and wore them out. So we had free time afterwards instead of an activity. The forecast had rain the night of the survival shelters, so we moved nites. Again schedule was flexible except got BORs, and we had 3 that night. Just make sure everyone is on board with no MBs. My CC and Scouts want MBs, even the 2 who do not need them. Good luck

My CC who said the comments is a 20 veteran who has been to Philmont and WB with no kids in the program anymore. YOB TOVU MAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Non of my Scouts could afford that.

If I had my way, instead of summer camp, we would be doing our own HA trip. Unfortunately not only is my CC pushing MBs and advancement, but that is what the Scouts want as well. Heck the camp we are going to, which is charging $330, suggests having the last period open to take advantage of free shooting, swimming, and boating, and the comment made "you are paying for classes, need to take advantage of them." When we were looking at camps, most were over $400. Few, if any, of my Scouts could afford them. I suggested a weeklong backpacking trip on the AT, and was told it would be a wasted summer because they couldn't earn MBs. Same person said while Philmont was great, it was a wasted trip because the Scouts didn't earn any MBs.

@InquisitiveScouter, That was the 2022 price. Here are the 2023 prices. And note they are subject to change. That is over $100 more than what we are paying.

OH MY WORD! Did you see the prices for their summer camp. And that does not include tents or cots, which are extra. My Scouts were interested, until they saw the price tag My worry is that when all the council mergers start, and camps start being sold, Summit will be the closest option for us. On a different note, I wonder what those council camps that are "leased" by councils will do.

You mean pull from members and volunteers via councils.

@Mrjeff, in my area, the problem is the council execs. Because they can do whatever they want, if adults question them they are removed. And it is not just OA. I can not tell you how many folks have been removed by CEs at the district and/or council level. And the LEC cannot do anything about it. Something I learned recently, it is customary for lodge chiefs to sit on council exec board for 3 years, their term of office plus 2 years. Some of the lodge chiefs who protested to much interference were not placed on the ballot for the additional years. And yes, the national committee are for the most part pretty clueless in the field. There are a few exceptions, but they are in the very small minority, and easily outvoted.

@KublaiKenlistes some great reasons. I will add some more 1. Costs, Scouting is getting more and more expensive. Over 1/2 my troop cannot afford the yearly national registration and council fees. Add on OA fees and event costs, and it is too much, 2. The quality of today's Arrowmen. My boys grew up hearing my Scouting tales, including my OA stories. They know the OA is supposed to be an honor society. But today anyone can get elected. My family switched troops, but the boys still have friends in the old troop. Several of the Scouts, that got elected from that troop were from the families that caused all kinds of problems, wanting to make Scouts a continuation of Cub Scouts. After the Call Out Ceremony (more on that), they went to their friends and asked how could these two Scouts get elected, and were told everyone gets into the OA. 3. Uninspiring ceremonies. Unlike @KublaiKen, the Native American regalia has not been a concern in my area. In fact, it was awe-inspiring and not cheesy "Hollywood Indian." Grant you the chapter and lodge had help in this matter. We had a ethnohistorian doing research, as well as assistance with local nations. Heck one of the local drums got started at an OA function at the main council camp. And I have been told one of the local colleges' powwows got their start with some of our Arrowmen organizing the first one. And we also had some quality advisors who staffed conclaves and NOACs. Not only were the Pre-Ordeal, Ordeal, and Brotherhood Ceremonies impressive, but also the AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies. My kids grew up seeing these inspirational AOL and Cross Over ceremonies. And then the AOL/Crossover Ban came. Instead of Inspirational ceremonies, you got a corny skit for AOL, and a High Adventure Base commercial for Cross Over. None of the ceremony teams in my area would do those. And with concerns about the future of AIA, interest in ceremonies have dropped to the point that our chapter does not have one. Further, when the chapter moved to their new home, they were located in at my troop's Scout Room, and we had a storage room just for them, they left behind all the regalia and supplies. Gustoweh's, gorget breastplates, shirts, front seam leggings, fingerwoven garters and sashes, etc all left behind. My older two sons Call Out Ceremony was such a disappointment, that SMs and family members from several units complained. Folks locally were used to impressive Call Out ceremonies. The folks involved with the AOL/Cross Over Ceremonies also did Call Out and Pre-Ordeal Ceremonies. The ban cost the chapter a ceremony team. Their Call Out ceremony was 2 adults reading names of a sheet of paper at the campfire. And they were not even in uniform or all in black. Just regular clothes and sashes. The last Call Out Ceremony was only marginally better. They at least had youth in uniforms. But they were still reading from sheets. Loss of Camps. Let's face it, the Order of the Arrow was originally an Honor Camper program, focused on improving and promoting camps. Even as the OA morphed into an honor society anyone can join, chapters and lodges still kept focused on camps. Locally my chapter maintained the local camp because our council did not. Any work needed to be done, any improvements needed to be made, any supplies needed to be purchased, 90% of the time it came from the OA. This only intensified when the ranger died, and was not replaced. Local Arrowman assumed his duties. Once the decision to sell the camp was made, and all usable equipment was moved to the main camp, no one had any incentive to work on the camp. Heck the council event took equipment that did not belong to them, stuff volunteers owned and left because transporting it back and forth was a pain. At one point grass was head high, deer were plentiful, and I saw evidence of homeless living in Adirondack shelters. Only time work was done was just before events, and it was done by the volunteers because the head ranger stated the local camp was "not my problem." This situation went on for 16 months. Worse part about moving the equipment was no one was notified prior to the removal. We had a group of volunteers show up to prepare for a camporee, and none of the equipment we were going to use was there, But @Mrjeff's comment Is one of the reasons OA in my neck of the woods is slowly dying IMHO. The National OA committee currently has only 3 Youth members out of 30+ members. At least that is better than a few years back when there were only 2 youth members out of a committee of 60+ That is not Youth running the show. When the AOL/Cross Over ban came out, one of the youth members of the National Committee visited my lodge and would not discuss anything related to the decision, despite being constantly asked. At it is not just at the national level. In the local lodge, SEs and LAs have overuled the members AND the lodge's general membership. Over 90% of the lodge's membership voted against changing by-laws, and they were overuled by the LA under the SE's orders. the youth were told "he doesn't care what they voted, it's going to happen anyway," So why would any be interested

Actually prior to the early 1990s, some lodges did offer a lifetime membership in the OA, similar to the NESA Lifetime membership. Do not know when lifetime memberships got banned by national, but they in fact had them. Met a few folks who had them.

Apparently a lot has changed. Back in the day, the only PORs a COR could hold were IH, COR, and CC. And yes, I knew an IH who held all three, plus district chairman. Most COR's may have done either the IH and COR or COR and CC. At least since 2019, and probably earlier, the COR could hold the COR and CC, or MC PORs. That info comes from the 2019 membership registration book. Recently, there was an Aaron on Scouting post stating that the COR can fill any POR.

That's the main problem with the current training and program, it went backwards. Webelos has NEVER been intended to be another year of pure Cub Scouts. It was intended to transition into Scouts, hence the Webelos acronym: "WE'll BE LOyal Scouts." In the 1980s, BSA did research that showed it takes longer than 9-12 months to transition Cubs, and their parents. That research led to the 18-24 month long period we are supposed to have, The transition is suppose to start in 4th grade because the research the BSA did in the 1980s. The problem packs have in my area, and I bet in a lot of places since the problems seem to be the same, is that adults are tired of repeating training. Let's face it sitting on the computer doing training you already know, and in some cases have already taught, is BORING and leads to distract. OR if the training is not required, it is not done. And if you review the training. there is very little on the nuts in bolts of transition. In fact in some places, the information is cut and pasted from Cub Scout DL training. When I did the old, in person, day long Cub Scout Leader Basic Training, it covered all positions AND emphasized the differences between Tigers, Wolves and Bears, and Webelos (now Webelos and AOL). Folks knew what lay ahead, and were prepared for it. When CSBLT was replaced with Cub Leader Specific, there was a lot of overlap with the 3 DL courses. Since my district had already planned CSBLT when Specific came out, the DE and I combined the 3 DL courses so that it was done in a day. Nowadays it is online and you got all these modules you need to do. And let's face it, how many folks run training on a background window while they surf the net.

My Comments in RED I hope only up to AOL. IHMO trying to cram 8 adventures before Crossover could be a challenge and lead to pencilwhipping. I believe that was how it was prior to some time in the 1970s. I know my brothers had Bobcat pins DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This will set us back 30+ years. Prior to 1989, Webelos and AOL was 9-12 months total. Studies showed that 9-12 months was not enough time to transition, hence the reason Webelos became am 18-24 month program, to better transition to Scouts. THIS WILL REALLY SCREW UP THE TRANSITION PROCESS! If national really wants to fix the problem, make Scouting Adventure required for Webelos, and actually force Webelos Dens to begin the transition process. But hey, what do I know. I just been around 40 years, saw when this change occurred, and how much better new Scouts were overall. Yeah, we did have some challenges. But not like today. And Live, in person training needs to happen to emphasize the importance of the transition. That is how it was in the mid 1980s. I remember just after Crossing Over, going to my first meeting and getting my Scout signed off and starting my tenure for Tenderfoot.

Saw this on a district's webpage today. While the post and at fireside chat meeting, the council said it was to focus on the main camp, one Exec Board member, told me that is not what they were told. It was to cover the cost of the settlement. Either way a great primitive camp is lost. To: East Carolina Council Membership Youth and Volunteers Subject: Sale of Camp Charles, Bailey, N.C. The Board of East Carolina Council would like to notify our membership that we have finalized the sale of Camp Charles in Bailey N.C. This was a difficult and complex decision as this property has been in use by our council for over ninety years to serve youth. In 2021, the Board evaluated the complexities and financial burden of maintaining numerous properties across our council. In short, we were unable to adequately maintain all properties to meet the needs of our membership and sustain East Carolina Council’s scouting mission. The board came to this difficult decision after evaluating three key dynamics in maintaining properties: ·Costs - costs for maintenance and repair at multiple camp properties across our twenty (20) county council territory ·NCAP Standards – the prudent and increasing camp standards (NCAP – BSA’s National Camp Accreditation Program) ·Focus - our ability to provide world class offerings at our primary camp operations the 442-acre Camp Boddie Scout Reservation and Pamlico Sea Base High Adventure Camp For the sale of this property the board sought two key initiatives from a buyer: 1) to secure appropriate funding from the sale of Camp Charles to sustain the mission of scouting in Eastern North Carolina and support future enhancements at Camp Boddie Scout Reservation and Pamlico Sea Base and 2) a buyer that would maintain the property for recreational use by many. We are pleased to share that we have accomplished both goals and have sold the property to the AJ Fletcher Foundation. The AJ Fletcher Foundation has a focus to improve the lives and well-being of all North Carolinians and has communicated initial plans to utilize the property for use by youth serving organizations for retreat and outdoor camping space. Additionally, we have entered an initial three year “Use Agreement” with the AJ Fletcher Foundation to utilize Camp Charles for East Carolina Scout unit camping and events across the next three years as detailed below: ·2023 – minimum of four (4) weekends consisting of two weekends in the Spring and two weekends in the Fall ·2024 – four (4) weekends consisting of two weekends in the Spring and two weekends in the Fall ·2025 – up to four (4) weekends (subject to A J Fletcher's approval in 2025) consisting of two weekends in the Spring and two weekends in the Fall Through this transaction both boards (East Carolina Council and AJ Fletcher Foundation) are committed to work together to enhance the lives and leadership development of youth across eastern North Carolina and beyond.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHA . WE had so many issues with the recharter process, I had to make a bunch of calls and emails before I could finally pay it. Did pay and it is still messed up last time I checked. Hopefully they will fix it, but with everyone rechartering at 1 time, instead of staggered like it used to be, the office staff is overwhelmed.

Sadly the folks running the Cub Scout Program nationally have little to no real life experience. I am told BSA use "experts" to write curriculums, programming etc. And from reading training materials, I can believe it.

In several troops I've been in, that is the case. Even adults who know better, go into "DL Mode." It takes 12-24 months for a Cub Scout Leader to "unlearn what you have learned," and become a Scouter.

Also they want Scouts BSA to be family camping. The Scouts planned a fun camp out, and it morphed into a family camp out because all the new families decided to show up as well. Since we had canoes, we did go over strokes so they could go around the lake and have fun. Races, "War Canoe" obstacles courses, etc. Just basic stroke practice. One Scout and his mom showed up late.. She got ticked off when she found out that we were not doing that warranted advancement getting signed off, just having fun. She yells, '"What is even the point of this camp out?" I replied "To have fun." I got a look of disgust and anger from her. She goes, talks to another mother for a while, then gets her son and leaves. About a week or two later, one dad posts on the facebook page asking why the troop isn't continuing on Canoeing MB since they had started it. Thankfully the SPL saw the post and responded that the PLC had not planned Canoeing MB, it was a fun activity, and that they planed to focus for the month on preparing for the district camporee. Over time we lost almost all of that den.

Kinda. Prior to 1989, Wolfs= 3rd grade, Bears = 4th, and Webelos=5th. Tigers was added in August 1982 officially, and was for 2nd graders. In 1989, they dropped Tigers to 1st, Wolfs to 2nd, Bears to 3rd, and Webelos became an 18-24 month program to better transition Cubs and their families to Scouts. sadly the WDL training has regressed, and Webelos are not beginning the transition until 5th grade again, and in some cases with 6 months OR LESS (emphasis). My idea 1. Make Lions and Tigers a separate program. 2. Revise Webelos requirements to include SCOUTING ADVENTURE as a Webelos requirement instead of a AOL requirement. I have seen some dens not work on that requirement until a month before Crossover. And in my experience, the earlier the transition begins, the better prepared the Webelos are. 3. BRING BACK LIVE TRAINING FOR WEBELOS DLs AND REEMPHASIZE TRANSITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( emphasis for you, Screaming at the top of my longs at National). Transition from Cubs to Scouts is hard, especially for parents. The earlier they get onboard, the better it is. Also If the Cubs are prepared, they will stay longer. In prior posts I've talked about how one den that began transition 1 month before Cross Over had all but 2 Scouts leave within 2 years, whiel the den that transitioned in 4th grade had 100% at the 3 year mark, and 80% currently.

Let me tell you what happens when the folks with no kids, but all the knowledge, skills, abilities, time, treasure, and dedication leave: THE DISTRICT SLOWLY DIES AS THERE IS NO ONE TO TAKE THEIR PLACE (major emphasis) I know this for a fact because it has happened in my area. The professional staff has ticked off those folks, and they no longer have anything to do with the council. Training numbers and quality has plummeted. Program is very parochial, if it exists at all. The number of activities has dropped because the volunteers who ran events, usually those without kids in the program still, do not want to deal with the council. Commissioner Staff, the folks who are suppose to help units out n trouble is non existent. There is one commissioner, who has no kids in the program, although a grandchild in a few years, who is trying to hold it all together by himself because no one wants to be bullied by the pros. And trust me, ew have had some arrogant professionals. One of the best CMs I ever knew stayed around over 20+ after the son Crossed Over. In additions to being CM, served in multiple program roles, including training. One arrogant DE tried to demean and degrade them publicly. They got ticked off and yelled back, " I've forgotten more about scouting than you ever learned, and I still know more than you!" They finished the program, and then stopped being involved. WE NEED EXPERIENCED SCOUTERS! ( emphasis)

One mentor of mine never had children of his own. He came back from WWII, and the troop he grew up in needed a SM, and he filled the role. He served as SM of the troop until Uncle Sam called him to Korea. Came back from Korea, and resumed SM job because everyone wanted 'Sarge" back. Stayed on for over 20 years. Even then he worked summer camp until health started failing him. Man who made the biggest impact on me, more than may father, was my SM. He was the role model for me growing up, and my role model now as SM. He also never had children of his own. HIs nephew's troop needed an SM, and he volunteered. He stuck with it for over 25, until a new job required him to move. Prior to having children in the program, I was one of those "Grown men" without children in the unit participating in overnite activities. In some cases during those time, I had more knowledge, skills, and abilities in Scouting than most of the parents. And in some cases I was the one training those parents. Further, I had better rapport with the youth than the other adults because I was closer to their age and I had no children in the unit, so when issues arose, they came to me. I can go on and on about the great Scouters who didn;t have children, but I will leave you with the following: Not all units have the luxury of being selective of their Scouters. We are a small unit of 6 Scouts. Of all the registered Scouters, I am the only parent. One has no children at all as he recently aged out, but for current YP purposes, doesn't count. My predecessor as SM stuck on as an MC after his son aged out, and plans to stick around. His predecessor is a COR/MC whose kids aged out as well. The 3rd MC served on a variety of district and council roles after his son aged out 16 years ago. Always partial to the troop, but got tired of the BS I posted abotu on my council in another thread, and came back to the unit. If you have concerns, maybe talk to the folks who know the person you have concerns about instead of letting your biases control you. That Scouter may be the best thing the troop has going for it.

Biggest complaint has been the council level pros for some time. . We are large geographically, but an economically poor region. BUT the folks with money usually were involved in Scouting as youth, knew the need, and gave of both their time for their children, and treasure to help others. Usually those folks would serve in district and/or council roles. Who knows the community better than the ones living in it? Well you got pros coming in, wanting things done their way. No amount of explaining that the things they want done were tried before and were failures will get through their heads. You keep questioning them, you get removed from the district/council level. Membership stats look off. You start questioning them, you get removed from the district/council level. You running an activity and councils starts interfering by adding additional activities at the same location the same weekend. When you attempt to discsuss the matter, you are yelled at. You decide it's no longer worth volunteering at the district/council level. Or you run an event, and the pros do not order the supplies you need. So you get the supplies last minute, which costs more, and go into the "emergency " portion of your budget. Or they do not order the quantities you requested, causing you to make last minute purchases, going into the "emergency " portion of your budget. Or maybe they need to make a second order for patches, causing the event to go over budget Or when you ask for support for the event, you are completely left alone and left to your own devices. No support whatsoever. Now a district level event can be done like that. Heck my current district operate like that now. But a council level one? But that is better than being yelled and cursed out at. I cannot tell you how many volunteers that has happened too. Heck one pro cursed out a key district volunteer via text. Which is why my district is in the shape it is. And apparently it was not just my old district. These things were occuring in all the old districts that now comprise the current one. Very few folks want to get involved because of the way they and their friends have been treated. And it still continues. Had a new pro plan an Cub Scout event with 3 weeks notice. Had to cancel one week out when no one volunteered for the event, and no registration since the even was planned after 95% of the packs stopped meeting for the summer. The email blamed volunteers for the cancellation, and the tone of the email further alienated volunteers. And when you alienate volunteers, will they give donations? Recruiting has been another issue. We got kicked out of the schools a decade ago. since that time we lost 6 packs, 3 troops any 3 troops on the verge of dying. We have begged the pros to help us with getting back into the schools and with recruiting. No luck with them. There was talk at one meeting about starting new units. I stated that national does not predict any growth until 2025 according o court documents, so instead of trying to start new units, could they focus on existing, struggling units. Told no, we are on our own. If we are on our own, why should we donate to the council when the money would be better served helping struggling units survive? Sorry for the rant, But I needed to get this off the chest. Yeah I know. The few district level things I've done have been because my Scouts have asked me to do them. I try to stay out of the BS and focus on my troop. But it is hard. As I said, I spent a long time and treasure on Scouting, and this area in particular. It is both frustrating and depressing seeing what is happening. I had more active units and scouts in one county back in the day, than my multicounty districy has today.

ISP generation has been in the upper levels of BSA for some time. They are your national pros volunteers. While you may see a few with the grandkids at unit level, look at the upper level pros and volunteers.