qwazse

There's two duck to get in a row: speaking plainly saying that BSA4G starts as of X date, asking all parties to do their best to make it work with references to other scouting organizations who have done this. There is no need for long speeches.

I've only been to Seabase, where burn prevention was the biggest challenge. If your troop is young, you might want to work on the discipline of sunscreen+hat. I have hiked in the northern Rockies and canoed/kayaked a bit. I think I would find NT more challenging because of my weaker upper body. BUT, your boys will be at least 15/16 and more than capable for either adventure. I would suggest committing to a couple of weekend trips of both backpacking and canoeing each year until they make up their minds. Fact is, you may have to put your unit number in the lottery for both to see what comes available to you in 2019. So, it may literally be a coin-toss.

If it's any consolation, friends of ours completed their IRV training and flew into Houston with the assignment to transport one to Sacramento (their first love), but they had also just completed whatever training was needed for running a shelter, and got reassigned to close one in the ensuing three weeks. Last Sunday's dinner with them was all after-action review. The wife said the past couple of years living on the North Side of Pittsburgh prepared her well for interacting with clients already displaced for seven weeks!

The reference to me did not show up on my notification bar, but still linked to my profile. So, it's doing one half of its job, but not the other. P.S. - I'm in an internet-free home for the extended weekend, so I can only check this stuff as long as a barista is pouring coffee. P.P.S. - Although there's lots of flotsam and jetsam on the Treasure Coast, folks have cleaned up after Irma here nicely. Thanks for doing your part, Stosh!

This fall, we started with them meeting 15-30 minutes after each meeting. The crew also meets during this half-hour slot, but so far that hasn't caused any conflicts. Most of the PLC aren't interested in Venturing ... may not bode well for my crew, but I'm okay with that.

@clemlaw, I'm think stosh was using 'swimmer' in the general sense of the word. Reiterating my bottom line: Second Class means to me that I can count on you to jump in and swim those 10 yards to safety when the "Dark Day" comes. That day could come with a boat fire, a dock fail, slipping on a rock, getting swept up by a wave or rip tide ... it's a very long list of scenarios. Is a pool sufficient? My kids were either in Lake Erie, on the Indian River, or in the Atlantic Ocean. I learned to swim in a pool (and in the Monongahela River and some ponds rife with Snapping Turtles sometimes), which was sufficient on Lake Erie on a flat-as-glass day. The first time I was smacked in the face by a 3 foot white-capped roller, it became quite clear that I would have to relearn what I was taught. Minor tweaks. But, I was 100 percent sure that I could adapt to the added chaos - and later, the salt water. For my kids, the pool was nice to teach, but the lake on a really wavy day (with whitecaps) was what really determined that they were either beginners or swimmers or snorklers. (None ever really became guards, but the knew how to rescue with durable support.) But, what made me sure that they could get to the level that they needed to be in the environment they were handed? When they stood at the edge of the pool with just themselves (in their swimsuit, of course), jumped in, and covered the distance to the other side. SO let me be clear. This is no mere requirement for rank. This is us telling a boy he's ready to face his next aquatic challenge. If there's any inkling that the scout is seeing it as the last time he will ever swim, then he has demonstrated that he is an ender, not a beginner. Enders are not second class scouts.

No scorecard. But scouts are asked (and trained to asked) what has been done in this PoR this month? (I really don't care about a laundry-list of things not done, as some of you have seen me write in response to some scouts' posts.) Sometimes I phrase it dramatically. For example: "How have you saved our troop from disaster this month?" The hope is they will wind up repeating the question to one another. The goal is to get the boys so proud of their positions that they have an accomplishment to brag about. Basically, try to get each scout to write his own score-card. My experience is those will be tougher than any committee draws up.

Answered in an earlier post - situational based on sensitivity to chemicals in the water. My apologies if that makes hair-splitters squirm. Bottom line: the kid's gonna get a patch with the phrase "Be Prepared" emblazoned across its width. If you are sure he will be prepared to jump in and swim strongly whenever the need arises, you're not adding to the requirements. If there's a doubt or reservation, doling out a pass is taking away from the requirements. It's just that simple.

A Car-wash is pretty low front-end. Well suited for high-school youth. Most station-owners are open to loaning their spigots for a good cause.

I dunno @stosh. I trash bag in hand cleans more than a goat in a raffle.

Winds under 50 mph? It's likely to be a great weekend! Seriously, in this case we would advise scouts to dress appropriately for conditions. Bring rain coats/pants and spare dry clothes. Prepare to be chopping wood throughout the weekend. We'd ask them to briefly go over the signs of frostbite and hypothermia. Wind chill is par for the course this time of year. My challenge with my venturers is that I loose track of who's experienced and who's not. They all look ready for anything and act as mature as I do. (That's not saying that much, FWIW.) And they even have the right gear with them, but in a dash out the cabin door, they might forget to don it. But we don't cancel the trip because of the risk of that sort of thing. We check the hazardous weather report a couple of days before departure. That's mainly for driver safety (freezing rain, black ice, etc ...). But, if there are severe storm warnings with high winds (or high winds aloft if this is a mountainous location) that could also factor in. We might even touch base with the ranger who might have to clear roads before folks can come into camp. Too many severe conditions, we consider a delayed departure or a no-go and try to come up with a plan B.

And I'm passing any who can meet the reqs with or without ancillary gear. How do I know they they can pass it without ancillary gear? I have them demonstrate it that way! It might be a bit of an assumption that if they pass without a dive mask, that they could pass it with, but that's not a problem. Because once a kid's a swimmer, his most likely trajectory is to try using different swim/snorkeling gear.

Agree with @EagleDad. In fact, don't be afraid to advertise that during the clinic scouts who bring a blue-card will be able to receive a partial covering requirements x, y, and z and be introduced to a counselor who he and a buddy could meet with to follow-up on completing the badge. For the few scouts who ask "Can I do pre-requisites before the clinic?" you might offer a list of counselors to whom they can bring their blue-card to in advance and get a partial before the clinic start. (Ideally, those counselors will also be at the clinic.) The "day of" goal is getting boys to practice skills that the badge touches on. As a scout I remember being introduced to the controls in vehicles ranging from sports cars to a semi-trailers. Never earned a badge for any of it, but sure had fun!

As one whose council is more contorted after mergers than a PA gerrymander, that there are by-laws and formal agreements that need to be dealt with. Each facility has its own set of obligations. Sometimes they revert back to some donor's estate if council elects not to manage them. So, a council needs to decide what facility it's going to put money in, and which it's going to divest in.

That's where it starts getting nutty. Do we make such a "swimmer" bring a face-mask on a pontoon boat ride? Keep it in his backpack in case we stop at a safe swim area? What if he swims to a floating dock, then drops the mask? The masks fogs and he has to take it off? Or, do we tell the kid, "Let's not pass you right now. But, let's you and me commit to time in the non-swimmers area until you'll be prepared to comfortably go without that mask." What's on that smiley-shaped ribbon floating in that pretty oval patch? It's not "Be Aided".

Only you can answer that. Just like only you can tell if your the same scout mom who asks tough questions on Bryan's forums, or if you just screen-grabbed that pic for your profile! Regardless, welcome! And, thanks for all you do for the boys!

@ValleyBoy, All this means is you have pro-active parents. Now the hard work is to constantly remind them that you want their kids to be as proactive as they are. We're having the same issue.

Here's one: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/council368/General/BSAGuideToSafeScouting.pdf from 2007. It looks like it is not in the new National version. It is in some council description of the swim test. I suspect this is because someone might split hairs about what constitutes an aid. I refuse to split hairs. I'm more concerned with what would maintain my confidence as a life guard. A kid comfortable in his own skin does just that. A kid who needs a prop does not. The pool/lake difference doesn't bug me. (In fact, I don't grudge any kid wanting swim goggles to test in a pool. The chlorine is hard on the eyes.) But, seeing the example of scouts who wanted to practice in the pool to be sure they could pass the test in the lake -- and the subsequent pride when they did -- I support what gives youth the most confidence.

The bigger picture, like @stosh implies, is that a rank, especially second and first class, is not an award for passing a series of tests. It is an award for mastering a set of skills ... skills that imbue confidence that the wearer of the award can hike and camp independently with his mates. Second class - in particular - implies that if the need arises he can hop in deep water and traverse 100 yards to safety. When a leader gives the boy such a patch, he is telling him "I trust you to be able to do this, among other things." This is no joke. One of our crew VPs was an excellent swimmer and sailor -- freshwater. But when she did the swim test in Seabase Bahamas, the deep freaked her out ... she jumped in, but floated there with her knees at her chest. Had she not been a first-class scout (the concept, not the patch) we might have asked Captain to throw a line. But, because we knew her skills, Mrs. Q could swim up and talk her through the fact that yes, there could be any number of creatures below us, but she could relax, kick her legs out, and enjoy a swim regardless. Doing so unlocked a week full of snorkeling and discovery. "He that is faithful in that which is least ..."

I would have never even given such matters a second thought before becoming a crew advisor! Although not about insignia placement, the post and subsequent comments from female leaders on Bryan's blog show how much of an issue this can be https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/10/09/tuck-everlasting-scout-uniform-shirts-should-always-be-tucked-in-bsa-says/.

I think the IG, without saying as much. is trying to give female cub leaders latitude in placing temporary insignia so that it sits at a more-than-equatorial latitude of feminine features. So, IMHO, it's two options for one patch.

Okay, so these aren't straw men. I have never had a problem with counselors who read the reqs literally and only gave a partial blue card. If a growing boy cannot -- after 12 weeks of determined practice -- improve, either he made a lousy plan, did not really execute his plan, or has a disability interfering with muscle growth and tone. If a boy -- after being shown recipes and going over the principles of cooking -- can't make a meal that I'll eat, there's a real problem. Same for communications. I've seen severely learning disabled boys get a point across clearly (sometimes trying to convince us that we should let him cut corners on some requirement), start spouting philosophy, organize a rock band, play violin, etc ...Only one friend -- and him only, a very articulate fellow -- was, unbeknownst to anyone close to him, in danger of his life with the burden of giving a presentation. (He ultimately committed suicide at age 26 of such anxiety.) So, yes, if I sense a boy is like that, I would have his parents hustle him to a shrink and get him a waiver. None of these requirements are something to kill oneself over. I have no problem with an able bodied Life Scout not earning these MBs for one phrase of one requirement standing in his way. He's got a lot to be proud of, why would I ever insult him by being one more adult in his life doling out a pass?

For physical problems ... I've gotten waivers. The scout for whom I got them wasn't exactly comfortable with that, but we faced the harsh reality that anatomically he'd sink like a stone and die according to his physician. The MB straw men are not necessarily equivalent. But, if there's a disability for which I can get a waiver to pursue an alternative badge, I will. Otherwise, I expect counselors to help boys work these requirements to the very best of their ability. This is not a high standard! It's the cooking equivalent of not burning water, or not letting meat spoil. We're not punishing the kid by keeping him at Tenderfoot. We're setting a bar that he can choose to overcome, or not. If he chooses not to, that's okay. He can still run for SPL, earn every MB except aquatic ones, do awesome conservation projects toward a Hornaday award, consider a venturing award. I'm not minimizing how overwhelmingly hard this step is for certain youth (and adults). You can see it in their eyes. And it takes days of committed time helping them desensitize themselves to this sort of thing ... hours in the non-swimmers' section ... getting the student to walking you through his/her head to find out how he/she can tune out fear and tune in action ... Something that maybe nobody else ever did for the student. You wonder if you will ever succeed, but one thing sticks in your mind: There is simply nothing less rewarding to a teenager than one more adult doling out a pass.

By way of fair attribution: Although my style, this was not my idea. The adults who came before me in the troop did this. In particular, one former SM who came to camp for National Inspection and the food (no joke!) led this discussion day 1 of summer camp.

I would like to +20 Fred. Although I do agree that this is youth-led movement, that doesn't create a unified vision. I want parents in a troop to come away with the patrol method. Maintaining that with a diverse group of boys whose other activities invade those evening and weekend slots is the real challenge. So, I want parents to think of ways they can support a patrol (e.g. property to camp on, a favorite trail-head they can car-pool the boys to, a shop where they can work on their Klondike sleds, a business of theirs that could provide raw materials, etc ...) while staying outside of the patrol. I often use the phrase "pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping together with your mates." But, that's usually to try and correct the vision of folks who want to invest extremely in big-ticket scouting (e.g. Jambo's, High Adventure Bases, etc ...), and boys who are so advancement-obsessed that they don't have a good gauge on when they've "arrived" as a scout. Cross-over parents might agree with that vision, but don't have a clue of how to get out of the way just enough to make it happen.