Jump to content

Unit refuses to hold elections


Recommended Posts

On 7/15/2022 at 9:53 PM, Oldscout448 said:

Please don't take this as  a challenge or an attack,  can you define " socially unsafe" and " culturally unsafe"?

It's not the best phrasing but what I making the comparison to the general criteria where adults are supposed to intervene. Usually that is in scenarios where something is unsafe. So I used similar terminology here.

I don't mean literally/physically unsafe/harmful to others, just harmful in general. Or let's say disrespectful is a better way to put it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/17/2022 at 11:57 AM, skeptic said:

  In that regard, I would like to see the Indian Lore merit badge modified to require some type of local cultural interchange as a requirement so as to assure the youth learn about their local tribes.  

 

 

I'm not sure how this will work for Scouts in TAC and FEC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I'm not sure how this will work for Scouts in TAC and FEC.

Lot of Natives are in the military. Could work with them. I know I had a one stationed at an local AFB sit in one of my classes to see what was expected so they could teach the MB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Eagle94-A1 said:

Lot of Natives are in the military. Could work with them. I know I had a one stationed at an local AFB sit in one of my classes to see what was expected so they could teach the MB.

Right, but I wouldn't consider members of the military to be a "local tribe" in England any more than I would consider the Mohawk to be a local tribe because some of their chiefs visited London.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I'm not sure how this will work for Scouts in TAC and FEC.

That is where the counselor steps in and suggests they choose a tribe from where they are from in the U.S.  They almost all have a familial connect to the States in some manner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/15/2022 at 9:10 AM, FireStone said:

.

Paint and feathers are not just part of native american culture. They are part of many cultures. It's in how they are used that makes them specific to a tribe, a region, a culture, etc. I'm pretty sure people of aztec or asian tribal heritage would be pretty annoyed to find that we regard the use of feathers to be exclusively Native American.

 

This sort of illustrates the problem.  The gaps in our knowledge become apparent. The idea that if good intentions are present that cultural gaffs are forgivable will only get you so far. Aztecs for instance are Native Americans. Their language has common ancestry with Utes, Shoshone, Comanche….  We are not in a position to make assertions. This specific lack of knowledge points at why we are not served well by continuing these practices.

‘Frankly I find it just as "odd and out of the mainstream" to suggest that something as commonplace as feathers is the exclusive domain of one specific group of people.’

The idea that because other peoples might have used feathers in some context doesn’t exempt you of  repercussions  when it super clear that your intentions are to mimic a cultural group or groups.  Is this a thing we need to perpetuate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, clivusmultrum said:

This sort of illustrates the problem.  The gaps in our knowledge become apparent. The idea that if good intentions are present that cultural gaffs are forgivable will only get you so far. Aztecs for instance are Native Americans. Their language has common ancestry with Utes, Shoshone, Comanche….  We are not in a position to make assertions. This specific lack of knowledge points at why we are not served well by continuing these practices.

I don't know. Is any Pre-Twentieth Century ancestry imitated accurately? Many African Americans travel to Africa to see the place and learn more of their ancestry only to find little to their knowledge is left to  explain more of the history than they already know. Does anyone really disrespect the movie Braveheart when they learn William Wallace didn't really wear a kilt? My ancestors were Vikings and rarely are Vikings portrayed to the accuracy you are demanding. Does that inaccurately takeaway from the costumes and customs in Viking dramas. Most people don't portray inaccuracies purposely to be offensive. Any many have pure intentions of bringing respect to the culture.

We live in a strange time when everyone is given permission to be offended by anything. Scouting, better than any other youth organization I know of, teaches respect to all others and they do it through the guidelines of the Scout Law and Oath. If they find they are unintentionally  being offensive, they should in their humility change  immediately. But, everyone should, at the very least, acknowledge their attempt to respect others.

I'm not a fan on the focus of OA master scouts mainly earning their respect by their ability to act out the Indian pre-20th Century culture. I must admit to this perspective by adults. OA is not the Arts division of scouting. I personally would much rather Arrowmen be respected by the community for their Cheerful Service and Outdoors skills expertise. I don't mind them being experts of the Native American culture, but it's the cheerful Service and Expertise to survive in the woods of the Arrowmen I want every scout to take into their adulthood. 

Barry

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don't know. Is any Pre-Twentieth Century ancestry imitated accurately? Many African Americans travel to Africa to see the place and learn more of their ancestry only to find little to their knowledge is left to  explain more of the history than they already know. Does anyone really disrespect the movie Braveheart when they learn William Wallace didn't really wear a kilt? My ancestors were Vikings and rarely are Vikings portrayed to the accuracy you are demanding. Does that inaccurately takeaway from the costumes and customs in Viking dramas. Most people don't portray inaccuracies purposely to be offensive. Any many have pure intentions of bringing respect to the culture.

We live in a strange time when everyone is given permission to be offended by anything. Scouting, better than any other youth organization I know of, teaches respect to all others and they do it through the guidelines of the Scout Law and Oath. If they find they are unintentionally  being offensive, they should in their humility change  immediately. But, everyone should, at the very least, acknowledge their attempt to respect others.

I'm not a fan on the focus of OA master scouts mainly earning their respect by their ability to act out the Indian pre-20th Century culture. I must admit to this perspective by adults. OA is not the Arts division of scouting. I personally would much rather Arrowmen be respected by the community for their Cheerful Service and Outdoors skills expertise. I don't mind them being experts of the Native American culture, but it's the cheerful Service and Expertise to survive in the woods of the Arrowmen I want every scout to take into their adulthood. 

Barry

While the service element is the main strength, the honor of selection is also a factor, though much less imporstant with thw watered down process where there is generally no limit on admittance if the basic requirements are met.  I have held one or two back due to scout spirit issues; that is my job as the leader.  But today there is basiclally no real limitation on elegibility in respect to the SM evaluation and rank and camping minimums.  As I have noted in the past, in my view, we have taken the strength of becoming a member away by removing the element of intregue.  And few lodges do real Native American cultural things like regalia and dancing, partly due to the issue under discussion.  What does remain could be far better presented by teams that do not have to have a crib sheet or simply an actual page with the ceremony details to read.  JMO of course.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, skeptic said:

While the service element is the main strength, the honor of selection is also a factor, though much less imporstant with thw watered down process where there is generally no limit on admittance if the basic requirements are met.  I have held one or two back due to scout spirit issues; that is my job as the leader.  But today there is basiclally no real limitation on elegibility in respect to the SM evaluation and rank and camping minimums.  As I have noted in the past, in my view, we have taken the strength of becoming a member away by removing the element of intregue.  And few lodges do real Native American cultural things like regalia and dancing, partly due to the issue under discussion.  What does remain could be far better presented by teams that do not have to have a crib sheet or simply an actual page with the ceremony details to read.  JMO of course.  

I agree with you about the selection process. In the 70s, I believe the age requirement was 14 to insure maturity and experience with camping skills. And, the scout would have a reputation of a servant because jerk was not going to get voted in by their peers. I don't know if that selection process could go back to those days, but the program sure could. Learning to lead a crew on a community service project requires a more mature person who believes in vision of cheerful service. Add to that practice of scouting skills and basically requiring Arrowmen to attend 90% of unit campouts, and you would end up with what I call a "master scout". I know by my own scouts that reputation is part of the draw for the activities they get involved in outside of the unit program. It's just a matter of changing the reputation of the OA program activities.

Barry

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Without going into a long spheel I  would like to say what I know, not what I  think I know.  Our local Native Americans are of the Creek Nation, and we have a long term Arrowman who is Native American.  We also an individual who is an active and contributing member of the Creek Nation and he has an open invitation to all 9f out events and ceremonies.  They are indeed concerned with the respect in which their heritage is used by the Order of the Arrow and are glad that we honor their heritage.   This I know, not something that is just talked about and surmised.  If someone reaches out to the local Nation, you may be surprised about how open and willing they may be to provide advice and suggestions. And yes, in the event that a member of our

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys are right on the money, as far as I'm concerned.  If the election is conducted properly the SM verifies the list of those who are eligible and are worthy of being elected.  Then the election team takes over and conducts the election.  The SM is notified of the results and the SM can announce the results or wait until the tap out / call out ceremony.  But the SM has the final word on who is eligible for election.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To All--

After 25 years of senior Troop leadership, having been the "go to" adult having 3 sons, all Eagles, and having been a senior adult during their Cub Scout years.

I have seen my share of O/A elections in the troop.  All of them.  I am an OA member.

Time and again, far, far too many times, I have seen crossover scouts voting on OA membership on older scouts' O/A membership where the older scouts had sports obligations and were only present to meet their Scouting requirement obligations..

The younger scouts may have never met the older scouts.  Yet they could vote on the scouts' merits.

So, I am in favor of the Scoutmaster of having authority of ADDING scouts to the list of those elected to the OA.

And my unit has had many who earned Eagle but not elected to the OA.

And each of those Eagles were denied OA because children had control of the vote had no idea whom they were voting for  .

Many times parents ask me about WHY their child was not elected to the OA. Same dad, 2 sons , one nominated to a US Academy class.

"Not so good election rules,  '""Eye'd woulsupport.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arrowmen are supposed to be experts in camping and they should camp a lot to earn that reputation from their peers. To sort out the children (first year scouts) from the scouts, set a troop rule that only scouts with a minimum 0f 10 campouts and summer camp in the last 12 months can vote for OA candidates. Then, explain to the troop the noble qualities of an Arrowmen.

Of course some scouts don't get selected. I will say that both in my troop as an adult leader and my troop as a youth, Eagle rarely was indicative of being selected to OA. Some Eagles are nerds who aren't great campers. Some Eagles camp a lot, but they aren't very approachable for young scouts looking guidance. Most Arrowmen don't rise up to be ASPL or SPL, but there is something about them that sets them apart from just the average scout. The qualities of an Arrowmen should stick out even before they are voted into OA. 

Barry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Arrowmen are supposed to be experts in camping and they should camp a lot to earn that reputation from their peers.

Back in the day when OA was Scouting's honor camper society that was true.  Today OA is officially Scouting's National Honor Society.  Camping requirements are still a part of the selection process, but no longer the main emphasis.

4 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

To sort out the children (first year scouts) from the scouts, set a troop rule that only scouts with a minimum 0f 10 campouts and summer camp in the last 12 months can vote for OA candidates.

Units control who is eligible for election through the approval of the SM.  Units select the date of the election within the time frame specified by the lodge and chapter.  Procedures for how the elections are conducted are set by OA, and should be uniform nation wide.  While an election team will tell the unit that if there are brand new crossovers who do not know anyone well enough to be comfortable with voting they have the option to not submit a ballot.  It is not unusual to see some of those new scouts take that option, particularly since we hold election in the fall and frequently have brand new recruits who have not yet had the opportunity to camp regularly with the older scouts.

I am confident that if one of our election teams was told "we do not allow anyone who does not have 10 days and nights of camping along with a summer camp to vote"; that unit would be informed that that is not how elections are  conducted.  (not to mention that those requirements to vote are more stringent than those to be elected).

I do sometimes wish that lodges or chapters would not encourage units to elect everyone who meets the minimum requirements, and that there was once again a max number of people who could be elected from the unit each year.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...