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JosephMD

Two adults 21 or over

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Last week I learned that a troop can no longer camp with one adult over 21 and one over 18, but not yet 21.  When did that change?  I now that is how its been for venturing as long as I could remember, but for troops.  

This is just another nail in the coffin for small troops like mine, with parents that work for a living.  It was kind of weird telling a 19 year old Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor arrowman that the BSA didn't think he was good enough to be an adult on a troop camp out (but uncle Sam would send him off to die halfway around the world).  

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Changed with the rollout of revised YPT I believe back last year (Spring 2018).  Below is the official section.  Note "registered", so a 21 + leader and parent over 21 would not cut it

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and program-appropriate supervision must always be provided.

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Wow, Joe, I don't know if I'm sorry you missed this or sorrier that you found out!

We've been going on about is for a year ... I think I got the early scoop at our University of Scouting.

Some lawyers must have thought some 18 year olds had done something real bad on account of their immature brains. (Brains that, evidently, are of the ideal malleability for college and war.)

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Just happened to have a unit commissioner at our meeting before the camp out to remind us of the rules.  I guess it was mentioned in YPT2, but working in both the Venturing and Scout program, I didn't make the connection.  We were able to save it because it was a camporee which made it easier to join with another troop to make for enough adults.  

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15 hours ago, JosephMD said:

It was kind of weird telling a 19 year old Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor arrowman that the BSA didn't think he was good enough to be an adult on a troop camp out (but uncle Sam would send him off to die halfway around the world).

It kind of puts those 18, 19, & 20 year old ASM's in a kind of limbo.  They are no longer considered youth, but not yet trustworthy adults.

Thankfully, this has not yet affected us, although had we not had an ASM dad we were initially not expecting, show up for a backpacking trek last fall, we would have had to cancel and send everyone home.  One of the over 21 leaders had an unexpected medical issue preventing them from attending, which would have then left us with myself and two 20 year old ASM's.

I am sure that this policy change came from the legal eagles at national.  It makes zero sense to me that we are saying to these young men, 'we really want you to continue your scouting career into adulthood, but we cannot trust you to do so without 2 people over 21 present, even if neither of them was ever a scout themselves'.  We can only hope that at some point, someone in Irving will apply a little common sense.

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1 minute ago, MikeS72 said:

  We can only hope that at some point, someone in Irving will apply a little common sense.

Funniest thing I've read today

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1 minute ago, MikeS72 said:

It kind of puts those 18, 19, & 20 year old ASM's in a kind of limbo.  They are no longer considered youth, but not yet trustworthy adults.

Right where I am at. In that age group, got Eagle through this troop, been a member of it for nearly a decade, but if my Troop only has 1 adult signed up to go, I'm essentially just another liability.

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2 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Funniest thing I've read today

I'd laugh with you if it wasn't so darn sad (and so true).

 

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Also, if you're not registered, you can only spend 72 hours at scouting events per year.  In that 73rd hour, you become a predator.  Apparently.

However, at the beginning of the next year, you're safe again for another 72 hours.  Not sure what spell or curse was cast that only protects a person for 72 hours per year.

And one more fun bit the OP probably missed, 2 registered, YPT compliant women over 21 can lead a group of all boys, but if even 1 girl is in the group, then 1 of the adults must be a woman.

Welcome to policy by committee compromise.

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1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

I am sure that this policy change came from the legal eagles at national.  It makes zero sense to me that we are saying to these young men, 'we really want you to continue your scouting career into adulthood, but we cannot trust you to do so without 2 people over 21 present, even if neither of them was ever a scout themselves'.  We can only hope that at some point, someone in Irving will apply a little common sense.

Don't count on it. Old enough to vote, drive, go to college, buy real estate and join the military, but not old enough to be the second adult supervision to a group of teenage boys at on a camping trip. 

And folks wonder why young adults being Scout leaders in the US is uncommon but it's common in Europe? These rules are why. I wonder what data the BSA used to decide a registered adult 18-20 no longer "counts."  

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51 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Also, if you're not registered, you can only spend 72 hours at scouting events per year.  In that 73rd hour, you become a predator.  Apparently.

However, at the beginning of the next year, you're safe again for another 72 hours.  Not sure what spell or curse was cast that only protects a person for 72 hours per year.

That 72 hour rule is per event, like a Summer Camp. If the event is longer than 72 hours, and you're there for longer than 72 hours, you must be registered. This has been discussed at great lengths here and on other forums.

If it's, say, a weekend campout, which are typically less than 48 hours, you're okay.

Note the word says "at the activity", not "not activities".

"All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive."

The "need not be consecutive" part is so that you don't stay at Summer Camp for 70 hours, leave for a while, and then return for the remainder of the week, thinking that the clock will reset.

This will surprise many Cub families, as many Webelos camps in the summer are longer than 72 hours, meaning the parents must be registered as leaders if they plan to attend with their Scout. The local council in my area just sent out a notice about this to families who were thinking of signing up to accompany their Scout to Webelos Exploration Camp.

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1 hour ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Also, if you're not registered, you can only spend 72 hours at scouting events per year.

There's some difference of opinion on this.  The language in the G2SS says:

Quote

All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive.

I read that as one activity (weekend campout, summer camp, etc. are all separate activities) for more than 72 hours.  So an unregistered adult can't go to summer camp and stay Sunday, Monday, leave Tuesday, then come back for Wednesday, Thursday, Friday because they will exceed 72 hours for that activity

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57 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Also, if you're not registered, you can only spend 72 hours at scouting events per year.  In that 73rd hour, you become a predator.  Apparently.

 

As an ADC, that 72 hour rule is one of the new YPT policies that I see the most confusion concerning.  It is not a total of 72 hours of attendance per year, it is an event that lasts 72 consecutive hours or more.  For most troops, that means something like summer camp, or the occasional trek during winter or spring breaks.  It may also come into play for Cub Resident Camps, although a number of councils have cut those to just a weekend, to miss hitting 72 hours.

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I emailed National about this and was told "If an event is 72 hours or longer the adults must be registered whether they attend for 1 hour or the entire time." 

Given that no one has a clear, authoritative answer to the question and that no one is following adults around with a stopwatch, perhaps we should just use our best judgement? Are we still allowed to do that?

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4 hours ago, JosephMD said:

 I guess it was mentioned in YPT2, but working in both the Venturing and Scout program, I didn't make the connection.  

Actually thew new rule came out AFTER (emphasis) YPT2 came out. That is why they redid YPT2 , I guess it's YPT2.5 now ;) , about 2 or 3 months ago.

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