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On 8/31/2018 at 11:42 PM, cocomax said:

It was IOLS,   The evening was all leave no trace, all flip charts.   In the morning we watched a guy cook us breakfast over a large camp stove and we ate on paper plates. We had a class on the flag and posting the colors that was all flip charts.  Next class was on wood tools, we got to look at axes, saws, and knives (but not touch), we learned the safe way for a scout to use an ax is to hold the ax against the wood and hit the back end of the ax with a hammer. The instructor told us that there was no way to sharpen a saw and she did not know how to sharpen an knife so we skipped that.  Next was map and compass and GPS, but they did not bring any maps, they had one compass, with a big bubble, but the instructor did not know the basics on how to use a compass like what the difference between magnetic north and true north we did not get to touch the compass.  She showed us how to find north with a stick, you just stick a stick in the ground and the shadow always points north.  Oddly she put the stick in the ground, but the rest of us didn't.  The first and last hands on thing we got to do was learn to tie a square not, the two 14 year old eagle scouts that showed up to teach knots sadly could not remember how to tie a bowline, sheet bend, double half hitch or taint line, but they did know the square knot really well and we all got to tie square knots.   Next a very over weight guy showed up with a back pack and showed use how to use a bear canister, where to buy them, how to carry them, covers for them, how you always have them and how to pack a back pack with clothes to keep warm, and always bring cotton clothes, he ended with a talk on leave no trace, and how it is important that we pack out any trash we find.  Then they tried to talk use into taking wood badge for an hour.  Then they signed a card and handed it to us and we went home, some of the other scouters left a lot of trash on the ground. I stayed behind and picked up the trash and was the last to leave.  

I offered to help a few times, but was soundly told no, I was not qualified to offer instruction. So I kept my mouth shut. 

. . . I ran 21 weeks of outdoor summer camp for 6 to 12 year old kids, was a logger for 10 years, camped in the woods more than 2000 nights, (I HAVE SEEN SOME THINGS OUT THERE IN THE WOODS!) hiked on 50 milers, got lost a few times and had to use a map an compass to find my way. . . was a natural/science teacher for 7 years . .  a boy scout for 6 years. . .  I have done hundred of stage shows by myself. . .    so it was really odd for me to sit there and be taught by people that do not know what they are talking about and some never even camped one night in the woods. . . nobody cared who I was. . . all they know about me was I was not a wood badger and therefore not really anyone of importance. . .

But I was so good!  I smiled nodded my head and kept my mouth shut. I did not make trouble for nobody!

It was great to get back to my troop, my second family,  and told the adults the good news of what I learned at IOLS, we all had a good laugh.   

    

So, have you since volunteered to be an IOLS trainer for your Council?

I taught portions of BALOO in the Spring, my first time teaching it, and I am sure there are people who had more experience than I did taking the course.   Of course, I invited comments in some areas, like Geocaching and I asked if people had experience with it, but when I did a segment on basic First aid and CPR, I taught it exactly to the BSA guideline.  If a person knew all the material coming in, at least they were able to hear me reinforce that YPT is non--negotiable, don't make up your own loopholes. 

That's not really the point. The point is that I am a person willing to volunteer for a 12-hour day of training and prep for that class.  Are you? 

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8 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

So, have you since volunteered to be an IOLS trainer for your Council?

I taught portions of BALOO in the Spring, my first time teaching it, and I am sure there are people who had more experience than I did taking the course.   Of course, I invited comments in some areas, like Geocaching and I asked if people had experience with it, but when I did a segment on basic First aid and CPR, I taught it exactly to the BSA guideline.  If a person knew all the material coming in, at least they were able to hear me reinforce that YPT is non--negotiable, don't make up your own loopholes. 

That's not really the point. The point is that I am a person willing to volunteer for a 12-hour day of training and prep for that class.  Are you? 

I can't speak for @cocomax, and I appreciate your teaching baloo, but I can generally say solid unit leaders should focus their time and talents on their units.  It isn't the unit leader's job to fix the district.  It's the district's job to serve the unit.  That is especially true for direct contact leaders.

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2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Thus I think this training in boy-led-patrol-method scouting, when done by highly competent people with highly engaging materials and with a focus on the outcome is paramount for scouting regardless of past experience. Unfortunately this training doesn't exist. Some will say "it is embedded in..." which means it is not the focus of the training.

I developed and taught a patrol method class. I found the struggle for many adults is just believing that patrol method does work. I gave some examples to the class of what Scouts can achieve with independence. 

One scouter stood up and called me on letting Scouts go on a 5 mile hike without adults. I asked him what scared him about the hike. He mentioned the obvious concerns like getting lost, or hurt, or even confronting strangers. I explained all adults have fears that hold them back from giving Scouts independence. I showed him how to remove those fears by teaching map and compas and using GPS. I suggested letting the Scouts hike in town in a familiar route so they couldn’t get lost this first time out. I explained teaching first aid and dealing with strangers in a scout like manner. The objective, I explained, was to use training to ease the adult fears.

The skeptical scouter sat down without saying thing, but he approached me two years later at another course to tell me that he did exactly what I suggested and it worked. He apologized for being rude that day, but thanked me for patiently showing him how to run a patrol method program.

So I agree with your suggestion of teaching patrol method. But it is a challenging concept for adults to consider, much less accept. Truth is just about every troop of adults feel they are using patrol method because they have patrols. What defines the different troops are the limits they place on the Scouts independence because they fear the worst. What adults need to learn is how to get past their fears. I showed them how to do that with training. But all I was really doing was getting them to understand Scouts are only limited by the adults and the adults can do something about it. How they get out of way isn’t as important as understanding the need to do it.

This forum does pretty good sometimes explaining true patrol method and showing scouters how to get past their fears. But I don’t know how much adults want true patrol method anymore, the Patrol Method forum used to be one of the most active forums, now it’s hardly even touched. I’m not even sure what adults want from scouting anymore.

Barry

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1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

I can't speak for @cocomax, and I appreciate your teaching baloo, but I can generally say solid unit leaders should focus their time and talents on their units.  It isn't the unit leader's job to fix the district.  It's the district's job to serve the unit.  That is especially true for direct contact leaders.

But if everyone is working on their units, then how does the district run?  Everybody working on district is giving a little extra time to Scouting beyond the unit level.  If everyone did a little bit, it would make it easier for everybody. 

Furthermore, if the Scouts are running the program and Patrol method, don't the adults have more time on their hands???

Edited by WisconsinMomma
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18 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

But if everyone is working on their units, then how does the district run?  Everybody working on district is giving a little extra time to Scouting beyond the unit level.  If everyone did a little bit, it would make it easier for everybody. 

Furthermore, if the Scouts are running the program and Patrol method, don't the adults have more time on their hands???

A district is only as good the leader. The leader could be the District Chairman, District Commissioner, or even the DE. But you will find the better Districts hand recruit the District positions.

Hand recruiting is an art form in of itself. It requires some research to find specific talents to fit specific needs, and then a warm conveniencing personality for inviting new members to join the team. The weaker Districts do something closer to filling in slots with warm bodies. One warm body nearly destroyed our Cub recruiting that took several years to rebuild.

I was most applaud by the instructor teaching Woods Tools in Cocomax’s post. The only lesson she gave the participants was her fear of using the tools. Scouts have been using axes safely for around 100 years. The instructor taught them how to use it to its least intended design. She should not have been asked to teach that subject. 

Nothing can turn off new leaders to training faster than a terrible presenter. The training committee is the least respected for the weight of its importance. The better teaching districts search professionals and experienced presenters with the skills to teach interesting and enjoyable courses. Those of us who taught the SM Specific course in the early days understand the importance of turning challenging (extremely boring) course material into interesting and informative instruction. We brought in a college professor and professional course presenter to help us design a course model for that material. The district is still using it 18 years later.

Cocomax knows his subject well, but how much are we risking by not learning more about is presentation skills? Personally, I would be interviewing him for a Unit Commissioner. I like style on the forum.

Barry

 

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2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

So, have you since volunteered to be an IOLS trainer for your Council?

I taught portions of BALOO in the Spring, my first time teaching it, and I am sure there are people who had more experience than I did taking the course.   Of course, I invited comments in some areas, like Geocaching and I asked if people had experience with it, but when I did a segment on basic First aid and CPR, I taught it exactly to the BSA guideline.  If a person knew all the material coming in, at least they were able to hear me reinforce that YPT is non--negotiable, don't make up your own loopholes. 

That's not really the point. The point is that I am a person willing to volunteer for a 12-hour day of training and prep for that class.  Are you? 

It almost sounds like you are trying to shame me,  point out you are better than me and telling me what to do. Interesting,  I do get that a lot,  I have can come to expect it.

Men like me are not wanted by my district, I was even told so by a high level at district wood badger when I offered to help with district level training.

So, my troop is my family, they want me around. The Girl Scouts call on me from time to time to do training classes, and they are always joy to be around. I would do it for free, but they almost always give gift me with smiles, patches and cookies.  I have a winter coat covered in Girl Scout patches and my GSUSA membership pin. I even had the joy of running 2 huge over night science camps with over a hundred girls. . . the high light of that night was getting to do a campfire magic science show / Girl Scout camp fire program,  it was so much fun. 

I know a great scouter we called "Old Joe" he was a scout master for a long time and I took my scout master training class with him, it was an amazing class. It was story after story of his experiences as scout master, how the patrol method worked, how we should not focus on advancement, the boys will advance simply by doing scout things, if the boys are not advancing you are scouting wrong.  The boys at some point need to lead their own journey to eagle, if that is what they want to do.  He told us that even if you have a boy in your troop for a month or two the experience would plant seeds that would change the boys life for ever. Old Joe did crazy high adventure stuff, solo, and with his troop. He did an amazing outdoor adventure blog with tips and how to camp/hike/mountain climb/white water/cook  His IOLS training course was done by himself alone, with no flip charts, in the woods.  He is the type of guy that by just being Joe ends up with people following him, people love being around Joe because he is one of those guys that radiates scout spirit. I was signed up to take the course with Joe and was looking forward to it. . . 

... then something really bad happened.  Joe was dismissed as a trainer by district.  Joe did nothing wrong.  It was a really ugly mess. 

There are people at my district level that do not want any "super star scouters" that people naturally wanted to follow.  If you have people like around they might out shine the "truly" important people that nobody wants to follow.  Joe was dismissed, because someone at district got jealous of him. 

I know how that goes, I was pushed out of my job of running science summer camps, because I had become a super star that the kids flocked to and my boss got jealous that was becoming more important then her. She worried the summer program relayed too much on me, so they got rid of me. . .  and in two years the whole summer program collapsed and she was fired by the board.      

Edited by cocomax

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1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

But if everyone is working on their units, then how does the district run?  Everybody working on district is giving a little extra time to Scouting beyond the unit level.  If everyone did a little bit, it would make it easier for everybody. 

Furthermore, if the Scouts are running the program and Patrol method, don't the adults have more time on their hands???

There are a lot of people willing to spend countless hours complaining on Internet forums but when asked to actually  help they  disappear.  However, there are also Districts who have internal politics (as @cocomax describes) and don’t do a great job of identifying talent to help.   

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16 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Scouts have been using axes safely for around 100 years. The instructor taught them how to use it to its least intended design.

Not to mention that it will ruin a bimetal axe. I know the work is done by whomever shows up and I appreciate a willingness to serve; but if the instruction is pointlessly bad, what’s the point in teaching?

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How to do a teaching presentation with a small group:

Know the subject really well.

Take a bullet point outline of the subjects being covered.

Bring interesting props.

Bring hands on materials for the people to work with.

HAVE FUN!!!

Walk around in front of the group and make eye contact from time to time, with one person at a time,  talk to that one person, in a loud but kind voice.

Value each person.

Allow extra time to allow members of the group to talk about their life experience on the subject at hand.

If you can work input from people in the group into your presentation, DO SO.

Be kind.

Have Fun!

Be open to learning new things yourself from the people in the group. Almost everyone knows something you don't.  

Make it your goal to always be learning and always improve yourself.

Be humble.

Be self aware.

Be aware of what is going on around you.

Great teachers are even greater students, great leaders are great follows.

---------------------------

After you are done, think about what you just did. How did people react to it, how can you improve?

Did everyone walk away with a sad face,  thankful the presentation is over and they can leave now? 

or

Are they smiling, laughing, gathered around you shaking your hand thanking you because that was AMAZING! Do they end up hanging around talking to you and asking for contact information.

 

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2 hours ago, cocomax said:

It almost sounds like you are trying to shame me,  point out you are better than me and telling me what to do. Interesting,  I do get that a lot,  I have can come to expect it.

 

Not at all!  But if you had a bad training and it's a subject and organization you care about, and you clearly have the skills to teach it -- go for it!

I don't know what to say about the politics in your Council, but surely, someone somewhere is probably desperate for help and you could be just the person to fill in or take a tiny piece here and there so you are not such a big star.  Sometimes in my courses,  a person has come out to teach just an hour or two and then they leave!  That's actually really nice for the trainer and the program. 

 

ETA: Whatever you are doing for Scouting, thank you!  If you want to help make better leaders, then getting into training is a great way to do it. 

Edited by WisconsinMomma

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1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

A district is only as good the leader. The leader could be the District Chairman, District Commissioner, or even the DE. But you will find the better Districts hand recruit the District positions.

 

 

Most of the time I really don't care what our District is doing.  I care about what the Unit is doing, and... the only reason I offered to help with BALOO is because it's a wood badge ticket, I had taken BALOO in years past, and I knew they were short on trainers because they asked all the new BALOO trained people a few months later if they wanted to come help teach the course.  It was very easy to walk on to teach BALOO, and it was also very easy to volunteer to run a Council wide Traffic safety merit badge -- all I had to do was connect with the right person and say hey -- this my ticket, and they are very welcoming and supportive.

Now, it's not easy in my Council to get picked as a Wood Badge staffer.  I'm not eligible yet but it's a more choosy thing and you need to be networked with the course director and generally known for being good at stuff. 

ETA: Note, I am going to more district meetings now that I'm a CM, but as a DL, the district stuff was of no concern, it's all about the den. 

Edited by WisconsinMomma

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The new YPT rules aren't going to help the patrol method any.

 

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I developed and taught a patrol method class. I found the struggle for many adults is just believing that patrol method does work. I gave some examples to the class of what Scouts can achieve with independence. 

One scouter stood up and called me on letting Scouts go on a 5 mile hike without adults. I asked him what scared him about the hike. He mentioned the obvious concerns like getting lost, or hurt, or even confronting strangers. I explained all adults have fears that hold them back from giving Scouts independence. I showed him how to remove those fears by teaching map and compas and using GPS. I suggested letting the Scouts hike in town in a familiar route so they couldn’t get lost this first time out. I explained teaching first aid and dealing with strangers in a scout like manner. The objective, I explained, was to use training to ease the adult fears.

The skeptical scouter sat down without saying thing, but he approached me two years later at another course to tell me that he did exactly what I suggested and it worked. He apologized for being rude that day, but thanked me for patiently showing him how to run a patrol method program.

So I agree with your suggestion of teaching patrol method. But it is a challenging concept for adults to consider, much less accept. Truth is just about every troop of adults feel they are using patrol method because they have patrols. What defines the different troops are the limits they place on the Scouts independence because they fear the worst. What adults need to learn is how to get past their fears. I showed them how to do that with training. But all I was really doing was getting them to understand Scouts are only limited by the adults and the adults can do something about it. How they get out of way isn’t as important as understanding the need to do it.

This forum does pretty good sometimes explaining true patrol method and showing scouters how to get past their fears. But I don’t know how much adults want true patrol method anymore, the Patrol Method forum used to be one of the most active forums, now it’s hardly even touched. I’m not even sure what adults want from scouting anymore.

Barry

 

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20 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

The new YPT rules aren't going to help the patrol method any.

 

I am not happy about the Den Method being implemented on Scouts. "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!"

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

The new YPT rules aren't going to help the patrol method any.

 

 

Which is why quite a number of the older scouts that trust me enough to speak candidly are planning on going backpacking, camping etc on their own.  To quote a 17 year old in my troop

" I didn't earn an Eagle badge to be treated like a Cubscout"

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4 hours ago, cocomax said:

It almost sounds like you are trying to shame me,  point out you are better than me and telling me what to do. Interesting,  I do get that a lot,  I have can come to expect it.

Men like me are not wanted by my district, I was even told so by a high level at district wood badger when I offered to help with district level training.

So, my troop is my family, they want me around. The Girl Scouts call on me from time to time to do training classes, and they are always joy to be around. I would do it for free, but they almost always give gift me with smiles, patches and cookies.  I have a winter coat covered in Girl Scout patches and my GSUSA membership pin. I even had the joy of running 2 huge over night science camps with over a hundred girls. . . the high light of that night was getting to do a campfire magic science show / Girl Scout camp fire program,  it was so much fun. 

I know a great scouter we called "Old Joe" he was a scout master for a long time and I took my scout master training class with him, it was an amazing class. It was story after story of his experiences as scout master, how the patrol method worked, how we should not focus on advancement, the boys will advance simply by doing scout things, if the boys are not advancing you are scouting wrong.  The boys at some point need to lead their own journey to eagle, if that is what they want to do.  He told us that even if you have a boy in your troop for a month or two the experience would plant seeds that would change the boys life for ever. Old Joe did crazy high adventure stuff, solo, and with his troop. He did an amazing outdoor adventure blog with tips and how to camp/hike/mountain climb/white water/cook  His IOLS training course was done by himself alone, with no flip charts, in the woods.  He is the type of guy that by just being Joe ends up with people following him, people love being around Joe because he is one of those guys that radiates scout spirit. I was signed up to take the course with Joe and was looking forward to it. . . 

... then something really bad happened.  Joe was dismissed as a trainer by district.  Joe did nothing wrong.  It was a really ugly mess. 

There are people at my district level that do not want any "super star scouters" that people naturally wanted to follow.  If you have people like around they might out shine the "truly" important people that nobody wants to follow.  Joe was dismissed, because someone at district got jealous of him. 

I know how that goes, I was pushed out of my job of running science summer camps, because I had become a super star that the kids flocked to and my boss got jealous that was becoming more important then her. She worried the summer program relayed too much on me, so they got rid of me. . .  and in two years the whole summer program collapsed and she was fired by the board.      

Unfortunately, I have found a couple axioms in my 10+ years as an adult scouter.  I have served as a DL, a CM, a CC, a MBC and an ASM since my now 17 year old eagle scout joined as a Tiger at age 6...

1) The WB aloofness abounds in BSA.  Either you've done it or you haven't.  If you haven't - there are some who will write you off as a leader with any knowledge worth sharing.

2) There are HUGE fiefdoms within most training groups within districts and councils.  I have volunteered in the past to help train at the district level for BALOO and IOLS.  Mostly first aid and fire building... some geocache and map and compass on the side as I seem to like those things and are relatively knowledgeable in those areas.

I no longer do this.  Why?  Because, once when giving the fire starting / camp stove class for BALOO, a very well meaning guy with a woggle came by and started telling me how I shouldn't discuss liquid gas stoves, etc... because BSA had recently ruled them unsafe for scout use.  Same for "hobo" stoves, etc...  I asked what I should recommend for use in survival MB type situations?  I got told, "Well, I don't know... but we can't teach liquid anymore b/c G2SS".  I asked so we should exclude something that the adults and youth MIGHT come across because its no longer allowed?  I said, so no knowledge is better than some?  Can I tell them "well, these are not approved types of stoves... but some scouts like to try to build them... so if you come across them... here are the warnings / precautions you should take..."  I got told in no uncertain terms "nope... can not discuss because they are NOT BSA approved stoves"..... Hmmm, ok?

Fast forward 3 more years... I'm getting ready to go with my oldest and his group to Northern Tier.  We need at least ONE adult to be Wilderness first Aid trained as well as BLS.  I have the Healthcare provider level BLS / ACLS because of my job... Council only offers Wilderness 1st Aid twice a year.  I look into getting certified as a Wilderness 1st aid instructor.  There are two main resources for this coursework.  One is the ARC (Amer Red Cross) - which they want a nice chunk of change (around $500) and I would have to travel from San Diego to the LA area just to take the class.  The other is ECSI (Emergency Care and Safety Institute).  BOTH are certified with BSA national...

I opt for the ECSI course, as I can do it via online webinar and submit supporting documents (like my medical credentials) and viola... I'm a certified training site.  I fronted about $300 of cost for the training and ten copies of the field manual (which has the BSA logo right on the front cover of their books) and the training aids to start training folks.  Now, I hold a Doctorate of Pharmacy degree.  I have been in practice for over 20 years.  I am a former Army Officer who has completed the C4 course (Combat Casualty Care Course), I held BLS/ACLS for healthcare provider at the time, and I had previously trained as a flight medic while on active duty in the Army.  I figured that was probably some decent qualifications...

I called the council office to inquire about getting my course offered via their website.  I figured I had the materials to train up 10 adults and other units in my area might have a need to have a trained adult for high adventure outings before the next time the council offered the course.  I asked to charge a nominal fee of $75 to cover the field manual, registration with the course company, and misc supplies (bandages / face shields / gloves / etc) needed to teach the class.

Well, I got asked to come down to the council office to discuss this training with the council training rep (volunteer position) and the two Wilderness 1st aid trainers (married couple who had been doing the twice a year training since Christ walked the earth).  All three are part of the pink scarf crew.  I take off work early on a Friday to make the meeting.  The three are already in the office discussing me when I walked into the council office.  I present my idea for the class, show them the training aids I plan to use, show them a copy of my resume to give them background on my qualifications, I volunteered to demonstrate some of the techniques covered in the class (stabilize a limb, apply traction to correct a dislocation, etc) ...  The meeting was a complete waste of everyone's time.. because the decision was already made before I walked in the door.

Immediately, I'm met with, "Well, we use the ARC materials, not the ECSI.... we don't like the ECSI stuff".  OK?  But, both are approved by national, right?  The BSA logo is embossed on the front of their field manual?  Doesn't matter.  "You should have talked to us first."  "Maybe if you take our class first and then we can train you up and monitor a couple of the classes you want to teach..."  "Why do you want to change $75?"  Well, I have costs associated with the training.  I'm not making a profit... just covering program costs... council charges more than that for the class.... "Well, that money goes to council."  Really?  Did council buy the supplies for you to use?  "Yes"... so the monies are used to defray program cost?  "Well, yes.. but it goes through council".... Ok, then let me run the costs trough council... "No, you aren't using the 'right' program..."

I even called national.  I wrote them letters.  Bottom line.  No pro scouter is going to cross up a volunteer trainer that has been with their council forever.

I'll offer it to folks who ask about it.  Our council has to accept someone's training that I give, because it is approved by BSA national.  BUT - council will not promote it as an alternate training site to their council ran training.  They will not provide me with an e-mail distribution to solicit other scouters to take the course.  So, I have no method to promote it to other scouters.  They refused to allow me to set up payment via doubleknot on the councils website to provide payment for the course.  Basically, they like to pretend that an alternate training doesn't exist.  That only those blessed by the council training rep and this ONE couple can provide the proper Wilderness 1st Aid training for anyone in the council.

Bottom line - I failed to ask permission before moving forward with getting certified as a train the trainer site.  I failed to genuflect to the proper authorities within council training and get their blessing before moving forward.  I was very clear that I was not attempting to step on anyone's toes or take over or usurp their established training.  I was only trying to provide additional training opportunities to a council that serves SD and Imperial counties (a very LARGE geographical area), that had historically only offered this specific training a couple times a year.

After that - I decided two things... 1) I sure as hell don't need WB and 2) I'll help keep the adults in my unit trained up... but the district and council are on their own.

The fiefdoms are real folks... and they detract greatly from brining new blood into the training teams.

Dean

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