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Jameson76

Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

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45 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

Do the rest of the units out there have some dearth of scout mothers who are willing to sleep in a tent ?

My unit has only 1 female who camps "regularly." And by that I mean car camping in fair weather. If it is not car camping, i.e. backpacking or survival camping, she and her son will not attend. And I stress fair weather, hint of rain and she and her son will not attend, even if paid in advance. And she is not reliable as she and her son will arrive late and leave early. Especially if she does not get her way.

If we had to depend on her for the girls, they would not be able to camp as much as the boys.

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2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I will assume that that is sarcasm.  But yes, I think Lone Scouting is sub-optimal.  Scouting is a group activity.  Doing it without a group should be a last resort.  I think the BSA agrees with me.

W. D. Boyce, who founded both the Boy Scouts of America and the Lone Scouts of America would have disagreed with you. Boyce did not consider Lone Scouting to be a lesser or sub-optimal form of scouting.

But yes, I do believe the BSA executives would agree with you.

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2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

And as a father of almost a Lone Cub Scout now

 

Welcome to Lone Scouting.

I was a 3rd generation Lone Scout. My great uncle was one of the founding members of Lone Scouts of America.

If you embrace Lone Scouting, with all of its history and tradition, in the same way that others do with BSA, you can have some real fun with it. Good luck.

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2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

And as a father of almost a Lone Cub Scout now, I can certainly relate as many of the activities and requirements are geared around a Den or a Pack.

We worked on Maestro over the weekend and found the requirements basically impossible without a Den/Pack:

Do two of the following:
a. Teach your den the words and melody of a song. Perform the song with your den at your den or pack meeting.
b. Create original words for a song. Perform it at your den or pack meeting.
c. Collaborate with your den to compose a den theme song. Perform it at your pack meeting.
d. Write a song with words and music that expresses your feelings about an issue, a person, something you are learning, a point of the Scout Law, etc. Perform it at your den or pack meeting, alone or with a group.
e. Perform a musical number by yourself or with your Webelos den in front of an audience.

----------------------

Only one we can do as written is (e). There are of course a myriad of other Adventures that are worded the same way.

 

if you are writing about your daughter, then your pack isn't doing "early adopter" right.

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7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I admit I have not taken YPT2 yet. But from reading hte Cub literature on YP, anytime a female is present you MUST have a registered female over 21 in attendance.  I will restate the question, do you send the girls home form the meeting, send everyone home, or ignore the rules.

Apparently the consensus on meeting is ignore the rule.

I'll rephrase 2 and 3

2) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to go on a weekend camp out, do you cancel the trip for everyone, cancel the trip just for the girls, or ignore the rules/

3) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to stay the entire week of summer camp, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, talk tot he camp to see if they can help?

3A) what happens if you have a week long trek and cannot get a registered female over 21 to go, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, or ignore the rules?

So, if I read this right - the scenario is: you've got a unit (pack, troop, crew, whatever) that is co-ed, have male and female scouts that want to attend whatever event, but don't have sufficient female leadership for the girls to attend.

To me, this is easy - you cancel the event for all. 

If you've got a co-ed unit, you don't have boy events and girl events.  The group does things together.  The minute you start saying "the boys can go because we have enough dads, but the girls cannot because we don't have enough moms", you've not longer got a unified unit.  To me that's way worse than canceling an event.

Further, you don't say - "we can't go because we don't have enough moms for the girls".  That's inflamatory.  You simply say - "we don't have sufficient adult leadership to hold the event.

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Along that thought, maybe units should first check adult leader availability before sending out permission slips to scouts.

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3 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

if you are writing about your daughter, then your pack isn't doing "early adopter" right.

Ya? Ya think? :)

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29 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

So, if I read this right - the scenario is: you've got a unit (pack, troop, crew, whatever) that is co-ed, have male and female scouts that want to attend whatever event, but don't have sufficient female leadership for the girls to attend.

To me, this is easy - you cancel the event for all. 

If you've got a co-ed unit, you don't have boy events and girl events.  The group does things together.  The minute you start saying "the boys can go because we have enough dads, but the girls cannot because we don't have enough moms", you've not longer got a unified unit.  To me that's way worse than canceling an event.

Further, you don't say - "we can't go because we don't have enough moms for the girls".  That's inflamatory.  You simply say - "we don't have sufficient adult leadership to hold the event.

It's a no win situation that some units will be facing.

If you cancel for everyone. you get boys fed up with the girls because it is negatively impacting them, and some may quit. And as you pointed out, if you mention can't getting enough mom's to camp, it's inflammatory.

As for going with Scouter's schedules, while I agree wholeheartedly with that, what happens when the only registered female is not willing to camp? what happens if they back out at the last minute? What happens if they back out during the camp out?

Not trying to be negative, but my troop is in that situation. only female willing to camp will only do so for car camping in fair weather. She has backed out at the last minute (hours before we were leaving), will not do any non car camping camp outs, and has showed up late and left early.

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7 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

And as a father of almost a Lone Cub Scout now, I can certainly relate as many of the activities and requirements are geared around a Den or a Pack.

We worked on Maestro over the weekend and found the requirements basically impossible without a Den/Pack:

Do two of the following:
a. Teach your den the words and melody of a song. Perform the song with your den at your den or pack meeting.
b. Create original words for a song. Perform it at your den or pack meeting.
c. Collaborate with your den to compose a den theme song. Perform it at your pack meeting.
d. Write a song with words and music that expresses your feelings about an issue, a person, something you are learning, a point of the Scout Law, etc. Perform it at your den or pack meeting, alone or with a group.
e. Perform a musical number by yourself or with your Webelos den in front of an audience.

----------------------

Only one we can do as written is (e). There are of course a myriad of other Adventures that are worded the same way.

 

The standard for Cub Scouts is "Do Your Best".  It sounds like she's in a den by herself?  Perhaps the best answer for your daughter is to do the requirements with another den.  It's not her fault that she's the only member of her den, so do what's best for the Scout and do it with another den (if another den is available and willing).

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30 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

It's a no win situation that some units will be facing.

If you cancel for everyone. you get boys fed up with the girls because it is negatively impacting them, and some may quit. And as you pointed out, if you mention can't getting enough mom's to camp, it's inflammatory.

As for going with Scouter's schedules, while I agree wholeheartedly with that, what happens when the only registered female is not willing to camp? what happens if they back out at the last minute? What happens if they back out during the camp out?

Not trying to be negative, but my troop is in that situation. only female willing to camp will only do so for car camping in fair weather. She has backed out at the last minute (hours before we were leaving), will not do any non car camping camp outs, and has showed up late and left early.

That train has already flown off the tracks in many troops. I have a relative whose SM refused to deliver on the promise of scouting. The boy and his brother are leaving their troop so they can spend more time comping with their dad in their favorite locations. A dad and mom who would have been willing and able to camp with the boys on their preferred out-island adventures in exchange for a volunteer who would help their daughter in her linked troop could have changed that situation.

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9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My unit has only 1 female who camps "regularly." And by that I mean car camping in fair weather. If it is not car camping, i.e. backpacking or survival camping, she and her son will not attend. And I stress fair weather, hint of rain and she and her son will not attend, even if paid in advance. And she is not reliable as she and her son will arrive late and leave early. Especially if she does not get her way.

Just imagine the leverage she would have over a co-ed unit. Do it her way or nobody gets to go camping.

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3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Along that thought, maybe units should first check adult leader availability before sending out permission slips to scouts.

...and maybe they should think about adult leader availability before going co-ed.

 

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4 hours ago, ParkMan said:

 

To me, this is easy - you cancel the event for all. 

 

No surprise there.

 

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18 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

I think @qwazse and @TampaTurtle are spot on. Those units will do what they want, and with tour permits being a thing of the past, they will get away with it unless there is a crisis of some sort.

Look at all the people applauding BSA4G who say their pack has had girls take part in every activity, meeting and outing for years. District and council professionals have to have known about all that, and either said nothing or told them they cant do that (wink wink)

 

But I think most Troops try to follow the rules and get it right.  Am I too optimistic about that? 

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15 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One thing thing not mentioned but can be done now: 18-20 year old female ASMs. Do we treat them as adults and they do not need a female over 21 with them, or do we treat them like Venturing "adult participants" and they need over 21 registered female? Asking because we have a 18 female who wants to be an ASM with her twin brother.

18 year olds are adults.  So you don't need youth protection for an 18 year old, they are not youth.  But the 18 year old cannot serve as a 21+ female supervision.  That's my best interpretation of how things work.  You should verify this with your council. 

 An Assistant Scoutmaster is an adult leader age 18 or over who assist the Scoutmaster in delivering the troop program.

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