acco40

A troop can run fine with a crappy SPL and good PLs. The reverse is not true. A big learning curve by both the youth and the parents is that the boys have a responsibility beyond themselves. I've had many a parent complain that I shouldn't burden their son (a PL) with the advancement concerns, attendance, QM duties, Scribe duties, etc. of the other boys in their patrol. I make sure I make patrol goals such as complete uniforming, arrive/leave together, etc. I get a lot of "it's not fair" responses in the beginning but they seem to fade as the patrol bonds and comes together. The boys learn quicker than the adults.

I use the BSA method, the one I promised to deliver. That said, what is the goal of the BSA? No, not to pay the professional's salary (but sometimes I wonder). One of the aims is to teach our youngsters leadership. One way of teaching is "showing" and another is "doing." Unlike a company whose goal is to make money for shareholders and therefore a secondary goal is to teach leadership to further goal #1, Scouting is the reverse. The primary goal is to teach leadership and the secondary goal is that patrols will run smoothly. If the worlds best PL resides in the Badger patrol, does it really teach the other Scouts how to be leaders if this person remains PL for six years?

Oak Tree - the unit does not choose the COR, the CO does. That said, we do not have a COR! We use the IH for all necessary signatures.

JASM - He is appointed by the Scoutmaster, not the SPL, because of his leadership ability. In our troop the term of office is six months. However, many of our youth "officers" get re-elected to second and third terms. As Scoutmaster, I don't prohibit more than three terms in a row but highly discourage it. Many time a former SPL or ASPL simply goes back to his patrol. Our current SPl is an eigth grader. One of our PLs is sixteen, taught the council NYLT course two years ago, served as SPL for the NYLT course last year, has served as troop SPL numerous times, etc. He doesn't feel he has been "demoted." Why should a youth want to become a JASM? Because he doesn't want the leadership responsibility of a patrol leader or senior patrol leader? Because of his availability to his fellow troop members? I'd encourage the current SPL to not vacate his position. There is no standard BSA policy about transitioning to JASM from SPL. There are no rank requirements for JASM either.

Our October "theme" was pumpkin launching this year. We had patrols teamed together (two teams of two patrols) to plan and make trebuchets. They spent one troop meeting and making plans. The next troop meeting was really a patrol meeting at the two building sites. Each group produced a bonafide trebuchet. Last weekend (Oct 27-29) we took them on our outing to the local council camp. On Saturday we launched our pumpkins (and footballs, tomatoes, softballs). The boys did a great job. Of course, the older boys trebuchet was not quite as big and the metal axle bent slightly under stressful conditions (due to less parental involvement). The younger patrols had more parental involvement (and an expensive "loaned" machined bearing) and was about seven feet tall. Each could throw a 5 - 6 lb pumpkin 75 yards! The thump and corresponding splat was loved by all. The boys learned that bigger was not always better, cost constraints, transportation constraints, how to make due with available materials, etc. Trebuchets were a hit!

First, lets get some "definitions" out of the way. BSA DECLARATION OF RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLE Excerpted: from Adult Registration Application B.S.A. No. 28-501K. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America's policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership. What are certificates of leadership? Are they only for Scouters (adults)? I have no desire to research the "bylaws" of the BSA. (From a position paper from the National Council) While not intending to define what constitutes belief in God, the Boy Scouts of America is proud to reaffirm the Scout Oath and its declaration of duty to God. (From the Advancement Guidelines The Boy Scouts of America has a definite position on religious principles. The following interpretative statement may help clarify this position. The Boy Scouts of America: 1) Does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion. 2) Does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement but does prefer, and strongly encourages, membership and participation in the religious programs and activities of a church, synagogue, or other religious association. 3) Respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. In a few cases, there are those who, by conviction, do not feel it necessary to formally belong to an organized form of religion and seek to practice religion in accordance with their own personal convictions. Every effort should be made to counsel with the boy and his parents to determine the true story of the religious convictions and practices as related to advancement in Scouting. Religious organizations have commended the Boy Scouts of America for encouraging youth to participate in organized religious activities. However, these same organizations reject any form of compulsion to enforce conformity to establish religious practices. 4) If a boy says he is a member of a religious body, the standards by which he should be evaluated are those of that group. This is why an advancement committee usually requests a reference from his religious leader to indicate whether he has lived up to their expectations. Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths . Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way. Now given all that, I don't see anything from the first post that would prevent the Scout from passing his board of review. He stated it was difficult for him to be reverent. He did not say he was not reverent. I know of priests and ministers who have questioned the existence of God. In my own life, my oldest son had a tough time as a Cub Scout with this issue. He has been raised Catholic. Around the age of 9, his religious teacher died suddenly (aorta burst). She was relatively young (in her 30s). Her son was in his class. The incident made him question his faith. Why would a loving God take away such a fine young devout Catholic, mother of four, ...? Normal questions that we all have to struggle with. I took him to her visitation to pay his respects to her family (on a Friday evening) and was somewhat concerned about his response. He seemed fine until that Sunday when he refused to join us for mass. He told me it was all a crock and started to get angry and cry. So, should I have immediately pulled his BSA membership (being a unit leader)? Boy, what a compassionate response that would have been! Part of my duty for being reverent is to be respectful of the beliefs of others.

He never sent the meeting notice and showed up at the next meeting with nothing ready or even a written agenda. CNYScout - when the Boatswain didn't follow through with his commitment, what happend at the meeting?

Concur with both above. Read the advancement guide and it will tell you that the Scoutmaster is in charge of advancement. If one reads the Scoutmaster Handbook, it states that the Scout's "leader" may sign off on requirements. Their "leader" is defined by the Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster may assign a specific Assistant Scoutmaster to sign-off on 1st aid requirements, a specific Troop Guide to sign-off on knot specific requirements and only himself for the rest for example.

nldscout - Eureka tents down to -35????? You must mean centigrade. I have trouble if the temp gets below 20F. Not keeping myself warm mind you, but my tent poles crack and split (are not pliable) if the temp gets much below 15F - 20F. Wrong tent?

OGE, along the lines of an ACLU patch, I always thought the Triangle Foundation should contribute to FOS and/or a unit perform service for them would be a nice move.

What doing good just for the sake of being good? I can see doing "good" without the promise of some supernatural reward but not for service hours or a patch? You've got to be kidding! :-)(This message has been edited by acco40)

Troop Committees may not decide that the troop does or does not "do OA." They are there to support the program that the boys create with the guidance of the Scoutmasters - period. It is very easy to blame things on outside influences (i.e. the OA in this case) and not look internally at the problem. What is one of the responsibilities of the ASPL? The Assistant Senior Patrol Leader acts as the Senior Patrol Leader in the absence of the SPL or when called upon.

Our summer camp gives out a Polar Bear award. The requirement is to go swimming in the lake before 7:00 AM (not real popular with the older Scouts or Scouters but real popular with the younger Scouts. Our council requirements for polar bear award - remain outdoors for over 24 hours (no dinning hall eating) with the temperature not to exceed 32 degrees and cook your own meals. Many in our troop did the above but we didn't meet one more requirement which I was not aware of - it had to be done in the winter. Why? My job is not to ask why, just know the requirements. Each council may have their own requirements. Up here in Michigan, we have many opportunities to earn this award!

Boy has this topic bobbed and weaved in a multitude of directions. Speaking of science, religion and global warming - check out what some evangelical christians are saying about global warming that is making Republicans sqirm. http://www.creationcare.org/

Yes, schools do undermine the authority of parents and other adults. How do they do this? By teaching them not to talk to strangers. Kids today do not respect adults like they did in the past but that is a whole other story. My sons and daughter grew up in a two parent, dad works, mom doesn't, middle class, white, suburban home. Their religious upbringing was in the Catholic Church. Some comments my daughter made to me while in church point out how being raised in "isolation" can color one's views. She admonished me for not kneeling during mass one day (I'm not Catholic). I simply stated to her that I don't do that. She accepted that. One day I was talking to her about a girl in her class who is a Buddhist and her parents are from China (her older brother is in our troop). "Oh yeah, Catherine", she stated, "She's really smart. I think it is part of her religion." I quietly laughed to myself and tried to explain the difference between religion and ethnicity/cultural values. I don't think it "took." Anyway, I want my children to be exposed to the fact that there is AIDS in the world, homosexuals, single parent families, divorce, etc. Yes, it can be a minefield but these facts should be introduced to children in an age appropriate manner. In my book, reading a story which shows that a child may have two mommies is fine for an eight year old to read but having the teacher acknowledge that she too is a lesbian is inappropriate. Children should be exposed to the fact that not all people live like them these ideas should be presented to them in as neutral a manner as possible. As an aside, the phone rang last week and I answered it simultaneously as my 14 year old son. One of his classmates called and was upset with my son about not going to a fast food restaurant with him after football practice and kept calling actions he did not like as "gay" and calling my son a "fag." These words were not used in any real sexual connotation but just as standard perjorative adjectives. Well, I waited a day and sat down with my son and stated my disapproval about using these words in that manner. Granted, my son was only on the receiving end but peer pressure being what it is, I didn't want him to pick up these bad habits. Well, enought ranting.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Participants.

Am I a uniform Nazi? I know, uniforms are not required. "The uniform" is one of the eight methods of Scouting. Neckwear is a unit option (for Boy Scouts) not an individual option. For a board of review, the Scout should wear as best he can the uniform of his unit. Okay, the above are facts and even though I may get some argument on the above I'm not interested in discussing the above. In our unit, the boys have made the decision to wear a black neckerchief with our troop logo embroidered on it. At last nights meeting one adult (me) out of 8 Scouters (SM, 2 SAs, 5 CMs) and four youth (out of 22) wore their neckerchief. None of the committee members wore any part of their uniform. Only two CMs even have a uniform (CC and Advancement Chair)! One of the Scouts had his BOR for Life. He passed with flying colors (according to the board) but did not wear his neckerchief (he did have on a Scout bolo). Why oh why I ask does this occur? When I present crossing-over Webelos with their troop neckerchief they are very proud to wear it. About a year later, it disappears. With my sons it is a constant battle to get them to wear their neckerchiefs and troop hats. Last night my wife, who chairs the BORs told me she didn't have time to change into her uniform (she had over 12 hours as far as I can tell!). I rushed home from work, skipped dinner and threw on my uniform in less than five minutes. What am I missing here? Why such reluctance, especially from adults who have been trained and signed an application to "deliver the program" to actually deliver the program they signed up to do?

Beavah is correct. Keep in mind, the MBC is "God" wrt the merit badge. He may accept or not accept past requirements if signed off by someone else. So official policy - time limit is before 18th birthday.

To "crossover" one has to join a Boy Scout troop. To do this he has to be at least 10 years old and no older than 18 and meet the following: be at least 11 or earn AOL or complete the fifth grade. Also, to become a Scout (not a rank) he must meet the joining requirements listed in the Boy Scout Handbook (something that is often overlooked). To earn the AOL the Cub Scout must be active in his Webelos den for at least 6 months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old, and earn the Webelos badge along with many other non-age/grade based requirements. So a 4th grade Cub Scout may not earn the AOL unless he is at least 10.5 years old (August of 2007 for this example) as stated by SWScouter. Of course, he would also need a willing troop to accept him. This is what is in the realm of possibility. All the other emotional issues (should he?, is his father just looking for convenience?, etc.) is for the parties of interest to determine.

I don't use tin foil, but our Troop Committee Chair highly recommends it. No big deal either way. (Iron in diet good, aluminum in diet bad by the way.) I've notice that the boys cook desserts in the Dutch oven and many times it is dark afterwards and cleaning tends to get very lax when dark with the boys. FYI, the balled up tin foil makes a great scrub brush.

Fisrt, let's not get into a round of "shoot the messenger." If one want to "attack" the message, so be it. So, accordingly, we are rewarding a Scout if he can accomplish a level of "stealthyness" from his unit leadership? I agree that attendance percentages are not the exclusive way to go but the "burden" for being active should be placed on the Scout, not the unit leadership. In our unit, I encourage all the Scouts who can't or don't attend meetings or outings to get in contact with me so we can arrange mutually accepted goals. Some do, some do not. Those who do not are not "active" in my book. Look at what is in the boys handbook: TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. An excellent vehicle to determine active is the Scoutmaster conference.

Elementary Schools are like troops - the school district and councils may have policy and guidelines but the Principals and Scoutmasters are who really sets policy. Regardless of the legal issues, I don't think it would be in your best interest or in the interest of the BSA to invoke the ACLU or other confrontational actions. Have someone from your uit talk with the Principal and find out his feelings. Does your unit perform service for this school? In my neck of the woods, we (Scout units) may use the public schools like anyone else. The going rate is $25/hr for a classroom, $200/hr for gymnasium or cafeteria. People need to realize that in the eyes of many, the BSA's image was tarnished by its "we are a private institution and can legally choose who we want to associate with" attitude. I think the BSA won the battle but is losing the war.

Yeah, Pete, I didn't read FScouter's post too carefully. At a quick glance, of the other posts, I didn't see any mention of tying a position to a training. FScouter was correct, as he usually is. I just missed it. I might add that the leader specific training for a Webelos Den Leader (or Assistant Webelos Den Leader) does not include Webelos Leader Outdoor Training (sometimes referenced as Outdoor Webelos Leader Training or OWL). This is supplemental training.

I think you all missed the boat on this one. The "Trained" badge is only earned with a specific position patch in mind. The requirements for being trained as a committee chair, Scoutmaster, Cub Master, etc. are all different. First, it is highly recommended that one takes Fast Start training (may be done online) ASAP. To be considered "trained" you need to: Complete New Leader Essentials Generic for all unit level Scouters. Gives an overview of the BSA's values-based program. Leader Specific Training Leader Specific training has been developed for the following positions and their assistants: Tiger Cub den leaders, Cub Scout den leaders, Webelos den leaders, Cubmasters, Pack committee members, Scoutmasters, Troop committee members, Venturing committee members, and Venturing Advisors. Cub Scout Leaders are considered trained when they have completed New Leader Essentials and the Cub Scout Leader Specific training for their position. Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters are considered trained when they have completed New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. Troop Committee Members are considered trained when they have completed New Leader Essentials and Troop Committee Specific Training. Varsity Scout leaders and assistants are considered trained when they have completed New Leader Essentials, Varsity Scout Leader Specific Training (in our council Boy Scout Leader Specific is also accepted), and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. Venture Crew Advisors, Assistant Advisors, and Crew Committee Members are considered trained when they have completed New Leader Essentials and the appropriate Venturing Leader Specific Training. (This message has been edited by acco40)

The question that should be asked is, "What guidelines does the Scoutmaster use for granting service hours?." They do not have to be approved in advance. Check out: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=74916&p=1