acco40

Looks like the BSA will get a new NESA president too.

Troopmaster.

It is very easy to measure the UC to unit ratio. It is much more difficult to measure the quality of a UC. Therefore, many districts/councils strive to meet the numbers and work on quality as afterwards.

BJ's Pizza.

Nice post. That reminds me of another saying: If a man said something in a forest and no woman heard him, would he still be wrong?

Eamonn, I'm old fashioned. When I stated "parents" I meant family involvement. Yes, I've had Scouts who had grandparent involvement but no "parent." So, yes technically, I would allow a Scout to join a Pack with no parent involvement but he would need "family" involvement. You stated in your post (from scourting.org) that yes indeed: "Family involvement is an essential part of Cub Scouting."

So ScoutNut & John-in-KC, please, what would your response be (if you were the Committee Chair for a Pack) if a parent came to you with the following: We would like to have our son join your pack but first let me state that we, as his parents, will not, under any circumstances, volunteer any time or support whatsoever to your pack.

I think many of you are reading too much into the original post. Please feel free to debate the issue of whether it is appropriate to ask for a Pack to develop and execute plans to require volunteer time/support as a condition of being a member of that one pack. I still stand by my original post - yes it is okay. I think what most of you are objecting to is not if but what that plan should be. For example, if you had a family come to your pack and state, We would like to have our son join your pack but first let me state that we, as his parents, will not, under any circumstances, volunteer any time or support whatsoever to your pack. - I think you would be totally within your right to refuse membership to this Scout/family. Again, Cub Scouts is a family program - family involvement is required. Therefore, I think if a pack developed and instituted a plan that simply stated that - Pack 123 has the expectation that all families we be active participants in the pack as a precondition for membership. - is not only an "allowed" idea but a good idea. I agree that being heavy handed, stating that one must volunteer a certain number of hours, attend so many meetings, etc. is not a good idea and would turn many off. But the question was not how they should develop and execute a plan and not what that plan should be. It was simply if it appropriate to develop a plan.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I agree that the Scoutmaster (SM) and Assistant Scoutmasters (SAs) are not members of the troop committee. However, the BSA is not always crystal clear in conveying that message. For example, it you take the Troop Committee Challenge, the committee positions do not include either SAs or the SM but under their "suggested" agenda under the "reports from committee members" the first member listed is the Scoutmaster. I don't have it with me but I've also seen the Scoutmaster listed as a "non-voting" member of the troop committee in some BSA resources (Troop Committee Guidebook for example). Another example, in the Boy Scout Fast start on-line training the Scoutmaster is listed as a member of the committee (although when described Scoutmaster is listed as a non-formal member, and not having a vote implying that committees vote - another topic of discussion). So I think I'm safe to say that while not a member of the troop committee, the Scoutmaster does (or should) attend all troop committee meetings and plays an important role in the meetings by informing them of the troop program and works with them to get their support of these programs. Therefore, as long as the Socutmasters role is identified, the fact that he is or is not a member of the committee proper is not important. As for the SAs - no they are not members but may participate in the troop committee meeting as a representative of the Scoutmaster if so designated by the Scoutmaster. Don't forget, that as in all Scouting functions - the meetings are open to all parents to observe.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Welcome. Just make sure wife is not committee chair!

Ed, I respectfully disagree. Remember, the original post was about Cub Scouts, not Scouting in general. The Cub Scout program is a family oriented program. The Scouts parents are their Akela. They need to be involved. They are part of the program, registered or not. That said, I think the approach decribed above that one may take to encourage volunteerism (is that a word?) is a bit heavy handed and may backfire.

One comment - boy run is surely a much easier goal if all of the adults agree that that is the goal. If not all of the adults are in agreement, good luck. The hardest thing for the adults to do is to allow the boys to fail. A few weeks ago (while the SPL and Scoutmaster were on a high adventure outing with five other older Scouts) the troop planned a meeting at the local park. Well communication was not what was needed. When I (Scoutmaster) asked the SPL about the troop meeting one day in advance, "Hey, is everything in order?", he said yes. I asked him if every one knew about the proper meeting location (we usually meet at our CO location) he again said yes. I asked him how they received this information. The SPL said by email. I asked him how come I didn't know and had not yet received an email. I got shoulder shrugs. I asked if he got an email. His response was he didn't check. I asked how he knew where we were meeting. His response was that he called the Patrol Leader planning that meeting. I asked him if he expected everyone else to call the PL. He finally said in an exasperated tone, "Dad, everyone knows where to meet. Don't worry about it." Well the next evening about 10% of the boys show up at the park, 75% show up at the CO and 15% don't show up at either place. I advised sending a "runner" to the CO (about two miles away) and finally, about 45 minutes later the SPL starts the meeting. I got lots of "feedback" from adults telling me I screwed up, should have notified everyone, yadda, yadda, yadda. I have developed thick skin and just shrugged my shoulders and said they should talk to the SPL. A few weeks later, communication was done on a much better level when we had a location change. I did my job - they boys learned something and nobody got hurt!

BORs for Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, 1st Class, Star, Life and Eagle palms are to be held with a minimum of three and a maximum of six members of the Troop Committee (not the Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmasters, relatives nor guardians of the Scout being reviewed). The Troop Advancement Chairperson typically acts as the chairperson of the Board of Review. For Eagle BORs, the rules are different and many districts have their own unique rules. For example, in my council, a district representative must sit on the EBOR. However, for all EBORs, it is open to all adults except for relatives and guardians of the eagle candidate, the Scoutmaster and SAs of that troop. Therefore, in my position as a Scoutmaster, I can only sit on EBORs for Scouts outside of my troop. So, if a boy requests a BOR to adults outside of his troop, something is not quite right. The BSA Advancement guide, a must for all advancement chairs and Scoutmasters, details this out quite nicely. Read it!

Agree, gwd-scouter. Again, read what is written in the advancement guide about "group" MB classes.

Girl Scouts is not a female version of Boy Scouts. The programs are vastly different with different methods and goals. That said, I feel that if a female would want to join the BSA program as a Cub Scout or Boy Scout - let them. However, don't change the program content. Right now, with Venturing and Exploring being co-ed I think the program is just fine. As for all male schooling - I think the addition of more male teachers in elementary and secondary education (use merit pay!) would solve the need for gender specific schools. It is a fact that boys and girls learn differently. However, it is also true that we live in a mixed gender, racial and ethnic world and teaching in that same environment has benefits too.

What? I can't believe you said that packsaddle! Why I outta ... Why do I keep butting my head against the wall? Because it feels so good when I stop!

Rank patch immediately? Not unless you hold meetings at your Scout shop? Officially, you are not supposed to buy rank patches in advance. A Scout is supposed to be recognized thrice. First, the day he earns rank (after BOR) via an announcement by the troop leadership. At the troop meeting immediately following by way of presenting him his rank patch (give the advancement chair or whomever a chance to go get the patch), and finally at the next COH.

If the boys didn't seem to make a big deal out of it, I wouldn't either. In 1974 or '75, I was able to snatch front row tickets to a Linda Ronstadt concert at college. Back then, you could take a camera to a concert and it wasn't a big deal. Well I snapped some nice pictures of Linda that evening. One still sits on my desk at home. By the way, she wore a complete (sans hat) Cub Scout uniform including some very short official Cub Scout shorts. http://www.ronstadt-linda.com/hit7806.jpg

Let me clarify, the person who passed away was an adult who counseled some of our youth as they worked on their Eagle projects. My guess, he was in his late twenties. Don't know details (depression, how, why, etc.) and was not a close friend. However, similar to religion, sex issues, etc. I feel this is best handled by parents, especially with the younger Scouts.

All, while not a member of our troop, a young man, an Eagle Scout, who counseled some of our boys with their eagle project recently passed away (suicide). The boys he counseled are aware of his passing but not the whole troop. My plan was to inform the committee (adults) but not the Scouts directly (leave it up to their parents). Anyone have any opinions on how to best handle this delicate situation?

If one really wants to get technical, the Scout has a 30 day window to improve (not years or months). 10b) Show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days. Now, I do interpret that as practicing during a 30 day window not practicing for 30 days during a TBD time period. Also, one must practice, not just show improvement. I can't believe that anyone, regardless of shape, can't improve with one month of practice (barring injury). The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program (not the committee) and my hunch is if the Scout were to record his best (10a) and then inform the Scoutmaster daily of his practice efforts and then try again after 30 days he would improve and impress the Scoutmaster to boot! As for myself (a SM) I allow the boys to record their initial attempts and their attempts after practicing with their parents. They can show me the results and discussthem with me and then I sign off. It works well for us.

In our unit (troop) it is not first come first served, drivers get to pick riders. Don't burden the volunteers who do step up to drive.

I vote for "fix" and not for "new." A word of caution about patrol outings. One, they need Scoutmaster approval. Two, once Scoutmaster approval is obtained, they don't need adult leadership at all (may have, but not required). One "sneaky" way if your SM puts the kabash on your plans it to have a "non-scouting" outing. Nothing prevents your son getting together with his friends (who happen to be in his patrol) and going camping (and following BSA guidelines). Just make sure the boys and parents know that you are doing this on your own, not as a troop or patrol. My son has organized many a laser tag outing in this way. I don't help him do this and make sure the boys and adults know it is a non-scouting event.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I was a veritifiable "newbie" when I took WB and wondered why I was asked to bring a red jacket. Was it really needed, no, but Woodbadgers like the official uniform wear (I didn't even know their was an official BSA wool jacket at the time). If you can pass a uniform inspection, you are set. I would also bring a knife and some "office supplies" - paper, pen, pencil, etc. Usually, they do provice an equipment list and your patrol (go Bears!) will figure out what you need cooking/tenting wise for the second weekend (assuming your two weekends are cabin first, tent second). Have fun!

Boy Scouts is for boys 10/11 to 17. The OA has no age minimum but one is considered a youth until age 21. But since boys need to have a minimum number of camping nights, be first class, get elected and go through an Ordeal to become "Ordeal" members and wait another year (okay, 10 months) to become a "Brotherhood" member the minimum age is usually around 13. Now, simply put, if you were a Star Scout, age 15 and still had an interest in Scouting would you prefer to hang out with a 10 - 17 year old crowd whose leadership and spirit were the "norm" or hang out with a 13 - 20 year old crowd whose leadership and spirit were "above the norm" and had adults who "butted out" much more than in your troop? As a 51 year old Brotherhood member of the OA, I can't stand some of the shenanigans that the OA youth come up with but you know what, the organization doesn't exist for me. My "support" comes in shuttling boys to and from the monthly meetings, arranging Pack and Troop ceremonies and supporting their service projects.