acco40

I won't try to guess what my Council or the National Council would say but let me add my two cents worth as a Scoutmaster. I'm constantly asked to give SM conferences during troop meeting nights, either before, after or during. I usually refuse because I'm tied up and busy with the pre-meeting, meeting and post-meeting. That's about 2 hours for me and if I try to fit in a SM conference before or after that time I'm usually worn out. I tell the boys my preference is to do SM conferences at troop outings. I don't require field uniforms during outings for the SM conference. This way they are not rushed. I work long hours, usually 10 hours or more per day and many times my weekends are full too. But if I am available, I will do SM conferences during the week and weekend. This week, a boy asked for a conference on the troop meeting night (Monday). I was bushed after 10 hours of work and 2 hours of meeting and I said how about Tuesday evening. He said no, he had to prepare for his vacation - he was leaving on Wednesday and would be gone for three weeks. Well, I'll see you in three and a half weeks I said. He was disappointed but understood. The youth need to learn to plan ahead and that we don't always need to cater to their schedule. I know that sounds mean but it is reality and a good learning experience for them. P.S. Another reason I don't like to use troop meeting nights is the parents. After the meeting is over the parent wants to go home pronto. If I agree to a SM conference, which could take anywhere from 10 minutes (Tenderfoot) to a half hour (Life), the parent usually shows impatience and I just don't need to deal with that. Also, with over 40 boys in the troop, what do I do when three boys want a SM conference (or six or seven when COH's approach!) on the same night. The parents go crazy if I don't do their special Johnny first because they have other important things on their plate that evening!(This message has been edited by acco40)

What is the purpose of a public school having a "moment" of silence for anything? Although I don't have the energy nor time to do what Mr. Croft is doing I would support banning the following in my children's public schools: 1) Prayer/moments of silence 2) Solicitation about upcoming school bond or school board elections 3) Anytime spent fundraising (quit turning my children in to merchandise hawkers for the school district!)

Unfortunately, from my observations, very few youth who get elected and go through their "Ordeal" remain active in the OA. Yes, they may pay their dues and thus remain "active" in the eyes of the BSA but I mean stay involved and attend OA functions. They just like the white sash or pocket flap! Now, that said, what is the harm in letting the boys decide among eligible candidates, who gets elected? Let's say you have a "borderline" Scout. He gets elected. Will he go through his Ordeal? Will he learn anything from it? Will he remain active in the OA? Who knows but it the answer is yes to any of these questions I view that as a positive. If the answer is no to all, what harm has been done to others?

meameg is correct. From the Guide to Officers and Advisors: Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, or adults remain candidates until completion of the Ordeal and Ordeal ceremony. If this period of candidacy exceeds one year, the candidates name will be dropped. To become candidates again, they must be elected/selected again. The executive committee of the lodge may extend the one-year limit if a candidate is ill or there are other unusual circumstances. Ordeals are done at various types of events depending on lodge customs (i.e. our lodge does not do ordeals at summer camp but does once in the fall and once in the spring). Scoutmasters have the option of informing Scouts immediately after an election or may simply wait until the Scout is "called out" (my preference). No, a Scout does not have to be called out to "attend" an Ordeal. The lodge should have a listing of Scouts "elected" (and not elected) immediately after the election.

I'm surprised that "Monster/Suicide/America" doesn't get the airplay now that other "classic" rock songs get. Unfortunately, both of these bands have gone through line-up changes ad nauseum. (Monster) Once the religious, the hunted and weary Chasing the promise of freedom and hope Came to this country to build a new vision Far from the reaches of kingdom and pope Like good Christians, some would burn the witches Later some got slaves to gather riches But still from near and far to seek America They came by thousands to court the wild And she just patiently smiled and bore a child To be their spirit and guiding light And once the ties with the crown had been broken Westward in saddle and wagon it went And 'til the railroad linked ocean to ocean Many the lives which had come to an end While we bullied, stole and bought our a homeland We began the slaughter of the red man But still from near and far to seek America They came by thousands to court the wild And she just patiently smiled and bore a child To be their spirit and guiding light The blue and grey they stomped it They kicked it just like a dog And when the war over They stuffed it just like a hog And though the past has it's share of injustice Kind was the spirit in many a way But it's protectors and friends have been sleeping Now it's a monster and will not obey (intro to cool guitar solo) :-) (Suicide) The spirit was freedom and justice And it's keepers seem generous and kind It's leaders were supposed to serve the country But now they won't pay it no mind 'Cause the people grew fat and got lazy And now their vote is a meaningless joke They babble about law and order But it's all just an echo of what they've been told Yeah, there's a monster on the loose It's got our heads into a noose And it just sits there watchin' Our cities have turned into jungles And corruption is stranglin' the land The police force is watching the people And the people just can't understand We don't know how to mind our own business 'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us Now we are fighting a war over there No matter who's the winner We can't pay the cost 'Cause there's a monster on the loose It's got our heads into a noose And it just sits there watching start of "girlie" back-up chorus (America) America where are you now? Don't you care about your sons and daughters? Don't you know we need you now We can't fight alone against the monster

Read what the Advancement Guide (gosh I wish they would put those things on-line) says about teaching MB classes in troop meetings. I like an old post by Bob White. It stated: Some Common Traits of Successful Troops 1. Currently trained adults. 2. Leaders wear correct uniform. 3. Scoutmaster concentrates on training Junior Leaders, and knowing the needs and characteristics of each scout. 4. They use the Patrol Method for everything. 5. They follow the contents of the Boy Scout Handbook. 6. The committee supports the decision of the scouts, they dont make decisions for them. 7. They have at least two Assistant Scoutmasters. 8. They recognize scouts three times for each advancement. 9. They DONT use troop meetings as merit badge classes. 10. They plan everything in advance and put it in writing. The difference between a wish and a plan is a plan is written down. 11. The only rules they have are that scouts and leaders follow the Scout Oath and Law. 12. They get outdoors once a month (even if just for a day event) 13. Troop meetings are filled with hands on activities 14. New scouts make First Class, First Year. 15. They keep in contact with Webelos Dens year round. 16. They select leaders they dont recruit them. 17. They participate in District and Council events. 18. They attend Roundtable. 19. Adults smile and play nice together. (If you are not enjoying yourself then neither are the scouts.)

Boys typically join Boy Scouts at the age of 10 or 11. At these ages they are still growing and naturally developing better endurance and upper body strength. For most at this age, the Tenderfoot and other "physical fitness" requirements become easier to do as they age (i.e. most 13 year olds can do more push-ups than most 10 year olds). Scouters have a much diverse age span. Although rare, a Scoutmaster may be 21 years of age. In my experience, most are in the 40 - 60 year age range. At these ages, physical fitness tends to decline with time; the opposite phenomenon that happens with the Scouts. That said, as role models, Scouters should still strive to be physically fit. In my own case, I struggle with my weight. I just returned from a strenuous week of backpacking at Double H. I "made it" but keeping up with high school athletes was a challenge for this 51 year old and the altitude didn't help my aerobic capabilities. However, in preparation for the outing I lost 15 pounds, cut my four mile run time by about three minutes and did get in better shape. I agree that a troop with unfit adults will curtail such activities as backpacking, rock climbing, etc. for the Scouts - not a good thing. We should strive to maintain a basic level of fitness but I don't think a fitness requirement is needed.

Merlyn, Can you enlighten us at all about the group American Atheists, Inc.? They sued the Detroit Downtown Development Authority which had planned a grant to three different "historical" churches in Detroit to be used as partial reimbursement for improvements the churches made to their properties. The AAI claims the churches should be paying for this, not taxpayers and brought up the issue of "separation of church and state (all, please spare us a diatribe about the constitution. Yes we all know that "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution but it is a legal precedent). A federal judge in Detroit will rule on this issue soon. Now, taxpayers support fire departments and police departments which come to the aid of religious institutions (and hospitals, homes, schools, etc.). So, if a church is considered a "historical site" should taxpayer money be used for its upkeep? Interesting debate. The federal judges decision will have an effect on many other similar issues. Here is a link for more info: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070719/NEWS06/707190348

Janet, Welcome to the forum. It sometimes gets very raucous (watch out for the political/issues section). My advice, stick to the Cub Scout side until your Bear crosses over and then you can become more involved with the troop. The opposite for your husband. That way, neither of you get burn out by trying to do too much. However, attend one of your older son's outings - they can be an eye opener! It's been I while since I've kissed the pig in the Plaza. K.C. is a wonderful town, pass the Gates BBQ!

A Scout is loyal. Unfortunately, I feel G.W. Bush values loyalty above all else to a fault. If a doctor or scientist puts forth evidence that Bush feels in anyway contradicts his beliefs he feels that the doctor or scientist in question is disloyal. I feel very deeply that G.W. Bush is a prime example on why MBAs are the worst possible candidates for President.(This message has been edited by acco40)

1) A Scoutmaster may refuse to "do anything." He is a volunteer after all. So yes, a Scoutmaster may refuse to participate on an EBOR depending on who sit on that board. 2) By signing an Eagle application, a Scoutmaster is implying that he feels the Scout in question is deserving of the Eagle rank. 3) If one is a Scoutmaster and only a Scoutmaster (i.e. not a committee member) an Eagle BOR is the only BOR he may participate in as a member of the Board. However, he may only do this for units that he does not serve as Scoutmaster (i.e. if I'm a Scoutmaster for Troop X, I can serve on the BOR for a Scout from Troop Y. Unlike any other BOR, for an EBOR, one does not have to be a committee member to serve on the board).

Merlyn, Adam Sandler movies have also shown the Devil ramming a pineapple up Adolf Hitler's arse. He is in the comedy business and (sorry Ed) the fact that homosexuals are now routinely used as a comedy device show to me that they are more accepted by society. Also, according to the link you posted, a dad tells Sandler he is no longer welcome to help with the Boy Scouts (not the BSA proper). Does that detail really matter? No. I'm guessing your point, other than to bait Ed, is to "tweak" others on this board, who are Scouts and Scouters, about the BSA's policies toward gays and atheists. Well, if you really want to change the BSA, as opposed to gutting it, I don't think that is a useful method. Bash the BSA and what many will do is to dig in their heels and defend their policies with more ferver. I asked my mother, born in 1925, about her attitude toward blacks when she was a youth. Her comments to me were enlightening. She felt no ill will toward blacks in her youth or as a young adult. She had a nanny who was black and well liked by her and her sister. But, she stated that blacks were porters, bell hops, nannys, janitors, etc. and in those integrated times she did not have contact with black doctors, teachers, etc. While in the Navy during WWII, the US government kept blacks as enlisted men with white officers, kept the troop separated by race, etc. So, yes, she thought while blacks were not "inferior" from a moral or ethical persepctive, from an intellectual perspective yes they were. Now, as she grew older in the 1960s her opinion changed. She was a product of her times. I think the same will happen to those of different sexual orientations. Interracial marriage was thought to be immoral at one time. It may not happen as fast as some would like but I really feel that our society, the BSA included, will soften their stance on this issue.

When I was a rookie SM, I was disappointed with who the boys elected. The boys are not as aware as I about the attendance records, camping nights, etc. as I am so I make sure I share that with them before the election takes place. The boys are usually more aware of the "finer details" of how that Scout conducts himself wrt the other Scouts. A Scoutmaster can go a long way to influence that the boys to take the election seriously. That said, what disappoints me the most is the fact that most of the boys who do get elected just go through the ordeal (to get a sash) and then never attend an OA meeting or service opportunity. I saw one poster who stated that the OA is youth-run, much more so than Boy Scouts. Well, except for the fact that the youth cut-off is 21 instead of 18, it should not be anymore youth run that a troop.

A Scout needs Scoutmaster approval to be elected as well as a rank (First Class or above) and a number of nights camping (15?) (no not necessarily tent camping but "approved" camping by the SM including one long term). A Scoutmaster may hold a simple election. He may also announce to the boys who is on the slate, have preprinted ballots, go over their attendance records, service hours, etc. as a way to "influence" the election. That is what I do. Do adults elect the most deserving candidate? Of course not, see our current President as proof (sorry, couldn't resist). Sometimes, not everything in life get to have a "do over."

One of the finer albums of the 70s in my opinion. :-)

These are indisputable facts: 1) Scouts can fail a BOR 2) BOR decisions must be unanimous 3) One purpose of the BOR is to check to see if all of the requirements for rank have been met Therefore, by definition, if a BOR member feels that they need to see the boys The Boy Scout Handbook to ascertain "3", ergo, Scout failed BOR. Now, is that correct or fair? That is a different question.

As Scoutmaster, I don't regulate showers, bowel evacuation, urine disposal, calorie consumption, sleep time, etc. What I do provide is the opportunity to bathe in peace (no horseplay), clean latrines, meal choices, quiet & lights out times, etc. Every Wednesday we make a big deal that it is tent partner appreciation day! After getting the kids (mostly first year kids) hyped up on it, we explain that being kind to your tent mate includes proper hygiene (i.e. take a shower, lakes don't count).

At my workplace (or as Bobwhite would have me write, the place that I work) the big push is "process" and "metrics" for everything. Forget the fact that we are an engineering house and each of us do different things. So metrics are forced upon us and guess what, now individuals focus on meeting those metrics and not doing "a good job." Is anyone surprise that the same occurs with NCLB? How are educators measured? Standardized tests? Well, guess where they are going to put their emphasis. Another facet of NCLB is the push for academics. In our country, a college education is needed for most to make up for our lacking secondary education. But is a college/university really for everyone? What does a bright kid who wants to be a machinist, mechanic, etc. pursue in his education?

On a light note, I gave a young (10 year old) "go-getter" Scout his SM conference last week and informed (okay, slightly teasingly) that he better get ready for some tough questions for his 1st Class BOR. He had a puzzled look on his face and asked me if it was even possible to "fail" a BOR. I told his it could happen from a technical point of view but from a practical point of view he had nothing to worry about. He laughed and thought I was pulling his leg, "Nobody can fail a BOR," he stated assuredly. I told him to ask the advancement chair and he was shocked to find out that yes, one could have a BOR and not pass. Has not happened on our troop during my tenure as SM but the boys need to know that it is a possibility.

I'm trying not to sound glib but the troop should use materials they finds on location. That is true pioneering. If the troop just wants to practice lashings, etc. in a troop meeting scenario (indoors?), I'd suggest nothing thicker than 4 inches in diameter and not more than 8 ft in lenght because anything bigger would be too unyieldy (is that a word?) for 10 year olds.

** The boy no longer has to plan for himself, what MB to earn, how to find a MB counselor, how to become a POR, etc. The Troop has in house MB counselors and planned MB sessions, on a schedule, that by necessity MUST lead to Eagle The above is a troop choice, not a change in the BSA program. OGE, I agree with your post about the "end product" and there are many ways to get there but if one does not use the 8 methods to reach that end it isn't Scouting (please replace Scouting with BSA or American Scouting if you have issues with that).

Like the rest, vast improvement (order of magnitude) in response time.

CVC direction - I agree with the comments about the CVC web posting. FYI, at a University of Scouting training session held by CVC this was brought and the "students" were told that while the POR is fulfilled by time served, the SM could easily and rightly determine that the Scout was not demonstrating Scout Spirit if he did not perform his POR to his satisfaction. P.S. Don' shoot the messenger.

This question seems to come up on this forum and other forums time and time again. Instead of quoting BSA policy let's look at it from the Scouts point of view. The participation requirement is explained in The Boy Scout Handbook by TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. During a SM conference, ask the Scout if he feels he has met this requirement. As for myself, the Scoutmaster runs the advancement program and they determine if a Scout is active. It is also understood, with a history of appeals from the national council, that set percentages may not be used to determine active. That said, I take attendance and have at my fingertips during a SM conference the boys attendance records at troop meetings, service projects, camping trips, fundraisers, etc. I use 50% or above as a rule of thumb but not a hard definition of active.

The Scoutmaster runs the advancement program in a troop. Working with the committee advancement chair they may set up expectations that a Scout appear before a BOR in uniform with his handbook. That would be similar to a Scoutmaster expecting Scouts to wear the field uniform while traveling to and from a monthly camp outing. Now, I can already hear howls of protest by some claiming that adults are "adding to the requirements" and have no authority to set these expectations. Au contraire. While correct that a Scoutmaster may not make the wearing of the field uniform a requirement for advancement he is well within his right to make the expectation that the field uniform be worn for certain events (such as a BOR). For example, I (a SM) have set the expectation that the Scouts bring to every troop meeting their own copy of The Boy Scout Handbook, paper and a writing instrument. Do they always follow suit? No. However, if a boy repeatedly does not meet these expectations a Scoutmaster may deem that the Scout is not demonstrating Scout Spirit (a requirement) or a BOR may determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals, both in the troop and outside of it is lacking. I think this is the fine line many confuse. In an indoor setting (my house, the Scout's house, CO facility, etc.) I fully expect the Scout to wear his field uniform during a Scoutmaster conference (I've never heard of the reference advancement conference). However, I've given Scoutmaster conferences "in the field" and fully understand that a Scout may wear his activity uniform.