yknot

Here's another thing: Even just for what should be a routine thing you can't get a straight or easy answer out of national. Has anyone ever attempted to navigate the BSA Customer Service number? It was back in the day when I was so niave as to think a BSA policy was vague by accident instead of by design. I asked, "In this policy, does X mean Y or Z?" I thought it was a simple question. Turns out the person answering the phone wasn't actually anyone who could answer a question. She was very professional when she assigned me a "trouble ticket" and told me someone would get back to me. I was suitably impressed and thought it all sounded very official and important and scoutlike. I explained it was for an outing coming up in 48 hours. She said someone would get right back to me. I held my phone in my hand all afternoon. A week and half later, she called back and gave me the answer, which was to recite the same policy back to me. I reminded her that my "trouble ticket" said that X was a little vague and I had needed clarification on whether it meant Y or Z. Simple question. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. I still wanted to know for the next time this issue came up. A few days later, another call back. The answer, which the customer service officer was apparently reading off an email, was garbled. I questioned her and we established that she was not familiar with the policy to know how to interpret the response, so I asked if I could actually speak to the professional scouter who had written it. She would check. About a week later, I had a message from her that she had moved "trouble ticket XYZ" up in priority and someone would get back to me... It went on like that. It was beyond belief. The ultimate upshot is that after about four weeks I had a very gruff, businesslike, but cordial message from someone who said he was pleased to answer my question. He then proceeded to read the same policy back to me, and then chuckled and said, "and just so you know, you can also find all of the BSA's policies like this one on our website..." I gave up. Since I was still naive, I tried to use that system a few more times but except for one case they were all that frustrating and nonsensical so I stopped calling and started looking for chat groups or whatever and that's how I came across Scouter Forum.

I would bet a lot of us have attempted to make things better by reaching out, but have had no success. I stumbled across this forum after years of calling and emailing Council and National and having numerous conversations to no effect. The coffee's always been out in our unit, but generally they don't really want to hear from you unless it's related to FOS or membership.

Wow. This is where your scouting hat has to be put over your Catholic hat. I'm Catholic, at least by tradition, and I've supported you on some of your statements because I know what it's like out there. But the diocese does not direct what scouts do. The scouts do. That's what it means by boy led. And scouting adults do not put youth in situations like that. Scouts is not a religious organization. It's a youth organization that honors the importance of religion. Many religions. There's no road map for what you are espousing.

A changed work world is why some parents have different attitudes. When I was a kid, my dad was the last home at night in the neighborhood. People thought he was a workaholic because he got home around 6 or so every night, except for end of quarters and tax time when he sometimes worked nights or part of a weekend. Never on a Sunday. My mother didn't work and I wasn't in daycare or aftercare. We spent a ton of time with our parents. Today, it's a struggle for many parents to get home by 6; most work a lot later, or have to work from home after dinner. Most work weekends. Many travel (pre covid) and are actually away for whole weeks or weekends Most families are two career. Most kids are in some form of daycare and are not with family for most of the day. There are a lot of parents -- especially those who are attracted to scouting because they want something great for their kid -- who do not want to spend the few hours they have available for family time regularly working with someone else's kids or sitting around a camp fire with other parents. I think if scouts wants to be relevant going forward it's got to find a middle way -- find a way to teach scouting skills while recognizing that the generation of parents coming up wants to spend most of their limited free time with their kids. I'm not denying there aren't other societal things going on like helicopter parenting or snowflake syndrome, but this is one of the new realities of life that scouts is often so slow to identify and respond to.

LOL the wildest friends I ever had were in Catholic school. Perhaps not outwardly destructive of private property but innocent faces often hid diabolical minds.

The problems you outline are largely attributable to the inherently dysfunctional organizational structure of scouting. There is little to no accountability in the scouting hierarchy. We have at least five levels of operation -- CO, unit, district, council, and national -- and little connection between them. In a corporate structure, low level employees with an issue generally at least have an HR department. There is no such function in scouts. We have four separate tiers with their hands out for fundraising and they are each only truly interested in or accountable to their own needs -- COs, who sometimes solicit direct fundraising support from units, units, who need dues, districts and councils, who run FOS and popcorn and whatever else, and National. By design, COs and units are largely isolated and there is no conduit for requiring accountability from Councils or National. There are accountability gaps everywhere you look and I believe this is partly why we were so successfully exploited by child predators. It's no coincidence that our structure is somewhat similar to that of the Catholic Church. Before scouting became so focused on marketing (money), membership and advancement, the structure worked OK but it no longer does. One of the good things that could possibly come out of bankruptcy would be a more functional organizational structure.

This is an accurate and sad litany and is why scouts needs to stake out fresh territory in a familiar landscape: Focus the organization on getting youth outdoors. All, or at least most, of the pieces of traditional scouting can still be a part of the overall program but should not monopolize the experience the way they do now. All the aspects that have eroded scouting's prestige and reputation are linked to things like allowing rote advancement, an overemphasis on religion, and management by marketing instead of by scout values to take it over. Covid has been a crisis but it is also scouting's best and still most overlooked opportunity. It's time for the organization to evolve.

The Eagle or Else outlook is not a plus for scouts. The whole concept of pushing to First Class in the first year is a part of it.

While I am generally a rule follower, given what BSA is, I think some degree of interpretation is involved. Some of these BSA policies that seem so outrageous, like attempting to dictate what a leader does on his or her own time with their own children, are really there to give BSA plausible deniability for liability reasons. They know most leaders are not going to tolerate being told they can no longer take their kids and friends to the movies. But, if something happens, they want to be able to say you were not following BSA policy. Although the headline will still say "Boy Scout Leader Charged in..."

Any conservation project benefiting migratory bird populations would literally meet the terms of that requirement.

I don't understand how your council fees are so high. Councils aren't allowed to charge more than the national fees. Not everyone wants to attend Camporee. We almost never do. Maybe back out of Camporee as a cost saving measure this year. What is the real loss? Popcorn is not the answer. In our area, we can't even sell it. No one wants it. We've had to turn to other fundraising strategies. Precluding scouts from seeking donations or donations in kind from local businesses just means that scouting overall loses a lot of low hanging fruit. Businesses -- local restaurants, hardware stores, etc., -- who would never make a donation to a far off council are often happy to give $50 or some free pizzas or gift cards to local scouts and families that they know. Councils should feel free to target national and regional businesses and local concerns should be left to local units to solicit. While I prefer for scouts to do fundraising through service, these changed times are going to require changed views and more flexibility and innovation in order for units to survive and maintain members. The idea of asking scout families to pay $400 plus per scout is ... insane.

There is also another goal besides the money. Anyone who understands the BSA organization understands that if there are headlines about COs having liability for these decades old cases it will be the end of scouting. As we've discussed on this forum, most COs don't understand their role. They think they are sponsoring units with space and some good will. Most do not understand they have any liability at all.

Liability?

I know the history is problematic. But the fact that indigenous people were here before us is still something that stills my heart and inspires awe, no matter how horrible the history. They were still here. They still need to have their stories told. We are lucky enough to live in an area that has some local history, some of it very colorful. Oral history about trails, encampments, token local characters. I did not like the native American appropriation in the scouting program including OA, but I did try to create a sense of wonder in cubs by taking them out to hike on trails that were here before we were, to see natural artifacts -- boulders that were used as grain mortar sites, lookouts, rumored ghosts, etc. I was not above planting purchased arrowheads in waterways for cubs to "find" on hikes. I can't fix the past. I'm not exactly sure how to appropriately tell the stories today, but I try to create an appreciation for what was lost.

My opinion is that generic face painting on toddlers and young elementary kids is face painting. It's fun and they like it. Painting rank or advancement based stripes on kids that are entering the older elementary grades starts to feel a little kitschy to me.

Frankly despite past precedents and other bankruptcies I think we may be confronted with a lot of developments previously unimagined. However, it still comes down to who in reality would want to pay money for anything related to BSA aside from its physical properties.

Yeah, but I just don't see where the BSA name has any broadly marketable value compared to the GM nameplate or any other of the commercial brands cited. There's really nothing profitable you can do with the BSA brand even on a small scale. Unless I'm missing something. Maybe someone buys Philmont, Bechtel, and the BSA name and then tries to run a branded national high end resort style, high adventure program out of those two sites and you have to attend those sites or satellite sites to participate in the program and earn the credentials? But I still can't see how that would be hugely successful financially... ?

From a business sense, I do not see where the IP here holds much value or to who. The brand is tarnished and muddled, the program appeals to a small and declining segment of youth, and it has no IT assets to speak of -- no working or revenue driving website or portal, no functioning administrative interface, no real social media presence to drive marketing. It is producing a tired print publication in a world where most print publications have expired because they are too expensive to produce. The actual advancement program and handbooks have value, but there are so many knock off programs out there and online, that it's not like you'd be buying truly proprietary material. The only brand I can see that still holds possible business value is the term "Eagle Scout." Some outdoors outfitter might want to stick that on a line of products. But otherwise I'm thinking that BSA IP is probably going to stay right where it is.

Join Scouts. It's really fun, especially for the little guys. I was not a personal fan of adding the Lion year but I know many people who love it. Even if scouts does close up shop, my philosophy would be not to worry about it and instead enjoy it while you can. And if it does fold, there are a lot of nature centers, watershed associations, and parks that run their own junior ranger type programs. I've worked with several so I know they are out there.

I interpreted the second Q on this FAQ to mean that if your local council is saying no camping then you need to follow that and not camp outside of council. If my interpretation is correct then you possibly could be liable if someone contracted Covid. You also have to look at it as your Council is taking these measures not just to reduce risk to scouts within your own unit/Council but also because the scouts in your region could present a risk to scouts in another region if you take them out of Council. Considering how Covid rates have varied widely almost by zip code, it seems the more prudent option. There was a lot of confusion and many differing opinions about it this summer though. https://www.scouting.org/coronavirus/covid-19-faq/

I offered that advice because I was involved in a dispute that wound up before an administrative law judge. While of course it was thrown out, I and everyone else named had to take time off from work to attend multiple hearings. It was stress I did not need while fulfilling a volunteer role and I don't think anyone else wants to be in that position either.

I mostly agree with you but I think for situations that could possibly lead to the threat of legal action, and this in my experience is one, it's better to have everything spelled out ahead of time.

The best way to do this is to have a consistent policy at the unit level. You need to meet as a committee and lay out how you handle disruptive scouts and write a policy. In our unit, we say we make an effort to accommodate all scouts, but if issues arise then a parent or parent appointed guardian may be required to attend meetings with the scout. If a parent cannot attend and the scout is disruptive, then the parent will be called to come pick up the scout.

The purpose of BSA's ambitious but ambiguous pronouncements on YPT are based on liability and to avoid the following type of headlines: "Boy Scout Leader Charged In..." because that is what the media will focus on no matter where any alleged incidents occurred. However, while I have always tried to follow BSA policy as closely as possible, sometimes you do have to apply commonsense. A family member is an acceptable guardian of a scout, whether that is mom, dad, or an adult sibling, grandparent, aunt/uncle or cousin. As a parent you simply have to be vigilant to that fact that these relationships that allow privileged access to your child can be abused.

Nathan, poke around this site and look for discussions about merit badges, merit badge fairs, merit badge universities, etc., and the concerns abou them. I think you will see why there is some reticence. You are young with a lot of enthusiasm. I think most of us on this site are older with a lot of cynicism. I think what we need to deal with is that the scouting way of old is really an anti app culture, but the scout of tomorrow is likely going to want apps. Somehow, if scouting survives, people like you will need to figure out how to make sure scouting stays both personal and relevant. Good luck.