yknot

I call it hands vs. heads. It is relatively easy to get Millennials to show up and help out as a pair of hands for something. What's hard to get is a commitment to take a more involved leadership position -- heads. They want someone else to do it for them. In their defense, family life has never been harder to juggle. In the 30 years I've been involved with youth organizations, the number of families with both parents working has increased to be almost all. The number of single parent families has increased. The digital revolution means that jobs never end. It is very difficult for managerial or key support people to disconnect for a weekend and sometimes even for night meetings. Summer camp staffing depends on where there is wifi so that volunteer parents can still plug in laptops and be engaged with work when they are supposed to be watching kids. It's tough and a new world. That's all in their defense. What is sad and what I would say in criticism is that there is no connection to tradition or legacy. They don't have patience with it or interest in it. They are sick of hearing about everything from 9/11 to whatever your local annual community event is and why they should step up and run it. Somehow scouts has to try and navigate this.

I think scouts is going to have to accept many paradigm shifts in order to survive. This type of thing might be one of them. Declining volunteer rolls isn't a problem unique to scouting. Scouting is the most volunteer intense organization of any I am involved with, and parents frankly have less and less time to give and money to spend. It's also generational. Millennials do not seem to have the same interest in volunteering as prior generations. Or maybe they do, but they want to do it differently. They certainly do not want to waste their time with ridiculous paperwork. Instead, they want phone apps and seamless, one stop digital portals for registration, payment, scheduling, and management of their child's activities and their involvement with them. The youth organizations that are succeeding are ones that are adapting to this and looking at new ways of operating.

Just as a point of comparison, some volunteer youth programs have gone to a kind of quasi paid model in the form of a stipend. This is often supported by some kind of a family bond payment above and beyond fees. If you want the bond money back, you take on a volunteer job. If you feel you don't have time to volunteer, you forfeit your bond payment and that money is provided as a stipend to someone else who did step up to volunteer. It's not really pay -- the hours required are still way beyond the stipend -- but more of an enticement or motivator.

Agree with all you said except for one thing: We don't send the whole medical binder anywhere. The set of "to go" forms for each scout are in their own clear plastic, largely water proof closed file. These can either go in the traveling binder for a camp site location or just clipped together on a ring for a backpacking trip. The medical binder has been lost once in a tip over so we never leave the unit without a master set. It is also a lot of volunteer hassle to have to recreate it. Also, it might be silly, but it feels like a privacy thing. No reason why med forms for 40 kids should go on a trip for 10.

This is interesting because I think it's one of the things needs to change. I've had to scan in and submit health records for other youth activities. Not sure why BSA is continuing with paper. How our troop handles it now though is to require parents to submit two copies of all forms at registration. One set always remains in the master binder kept at the CO. The second set is pulled out and put into a trip binder for each trip and then returned. In the event that copy is ever lost, though, a master set remains in the unit's possession. I also think one of the things that has to be considered is what makes the most sense from a volunteer sense. Requiring a scout to bring their own form to each trip, and then requiring someone to keep track of that for each trip, seems like a whole lot more work than just asking for two copies of the form. Finally, the BSA policy on health forms predates some of the issues that are becoming common today and can require frequent consultation of these forms. I'm thinking of food allergies, behaviorial meds, diabetes management, etc. Ideally in most cases a parent is along or a child is capable of overseeing his or her own care, but any adult in charge of the trip would need to be aware or monitoring just in case. This has been a problem in our unit because whipping paper documents in and out of a binder under weather conditions on the trail has not always been effective.

There have been efforts but the BSA organization itself is not structured to be very workable in at risk communities. Other youth organizations, like youth sports, have managed to do a fairly good job but not BSA. And none of those other youth organizations claim many if any of the higher goals so vocally promoted by scouting. It is an odd disconnect. I'm not saying BSA should have organized itself around serving inner city or rural poor youth, just that it shouldn't be so difficult and expensive no matter who you are to implement the program.

How many of those kids realistically have ever been part of the scouting universe from the National perspective? A tragic mistake, because if scouting was living up to its own values, those kids would have been the target audience. But the corporate marketing reality is that they are not and never have been the goal. The market at least in recent decades has been families that want their kids to get to Eagle and are able to spend on on all the uniform and advancement permutations along the way.

The issue is not the monthly expense it is the perceived value. BSA does a terrible job of promoting value. It's marketing for the past few decades has relied on Eagle Scout but that does not appeal to the broadest cross section. It should be focusing on outdoors.

I've seen that too. And Council fees can increase proportionally to match. However, those fee projections predate Covid and its effects on retention, recruitment and membership as well as its impact on drawing out the bankruptcy case which will likely also increase legal fees. Not to mention unit fundraising which in some places has been seriously curtailed and will have an impact on local dues. There are many unit expenses that also need to be accounted for. It's not a good situation.

It is doubtful that there is any scenario under which fees will decrease. It's very possible that they may increase again.

The last thing I can suggest if you still have trouble is a light cotton t shirt or Class B t shirt underneath. This helps if it isn't too hot for layers.

Yes it looks the same with the same label and same net vent over the shoulders. I don't know what your daughter's specific sensitivity issue is but the fabric is soft, light, and not scratchy.

I feel for you. I have the same issue as do both my sons. There is a shirt style I bought a few years ago that is 100 % polyester that both did OK with. It was very soft and pretty breathable for polyester. We mostly can't wear anything but soft cotton, certain kinds of polyester, and cotton lycra. I don't remember if they made youth sizes because all of mine are men's, the smallest being men's small. I would bet you would be able to find in hand me down bins in one of your other local troops if you explained your problem and asked or maybe on ebay. The other thing I tried to do with those scratchy stiff cotton shirts was to wash the heck out of them and again look for well worn hand me downs that had softened up a bit. The uniform is one of my issues with scouts. It's expensive, often uncomfortable, and mostly impractical for what these kids are doing. Good luck.

Bear behavior during the supposedly dormant months doesn't have much to do with locale but rather other factors such as ambient temperatures and the health of the bear. Black bears are not true hibernators but enter a state of torpor from which they can readily awaken. A January thaw, ill health, or stimulation can entice many bears to wake up randomly and seek food. We all have that image in our head of bears snug in a deep cave during winter months but in reality a black bear den can simply be a depression under a fallen log or thicket. Even slight human activity in the immediate vicinity can awaken them. As bear populations increase, increased caution is a useful consideration.

Also worth considering is that black bear populations have increased dramatically over the past couple decades especially in the east so what has worked in the past may not continue to work as bears get more habituated to humans and smarter about accessing food. We live in bear territory and supposedly bear proof measures for trash or livestock often don't work. Bears are one of the reasons why I would like to see some of the emphasis on cooking and food lessen in the program for both cubs and scouts. The less you pack the less they can smell.

I've been thinking about this. Starting at the cub level, things like knife skills, fire skills, camping skills, citizenship skills, etc., are taught. A cyber chip has been added. I don't really see anywhere though that we specifically teach the basic tools of leadership which is kind of core to the program. The program creates leadership opportunities and situations but there's nothing about what is a team, what is leadership, what do you do when not everyone agrees, how do you run a meeting, what is compromise, etc. Older kids that seek out the training can get some of this through ISLT and NYLT but that's not every scout and pretty far up the line. And it doesn't help new scouts who are facing their first real experience trying to work as a team in a patrol. It seems like some of these skills could be taught at the Webelos level, with some stepped components through Tenderfoot, in order to help new scouts better navigate the patrol process and learn from it rather than quit. We might be getting off topic with this discussion but in a way it relates back to the OP topic of civil protest because these are some obvious issues we are having with our youth. Polarization. An inability to tolerate different views. Youth who have no idea how to compromise because it hasn't been part of their upbringing. This is noted in the educational system and to a lesser degree in other youth organizations like sports where some teams have dispensed with team captains or rotate the position for each game. Peer to peer leadership has become really problematic. Schools and sports are shying away from it but if it is that central to the patrol method, why don't we teach it.

We run the financing through the Troop as a pass through account but the trip is wholly the responsibility of the crew from the get go. Someone from the crew has to front the money and if someone backs out they are either liable for the funds or need to get someone else to take their spot. The problem is that you need to reserve these spots well in advance and things happen. But that's why we are hands off. It's an elite experience open only to those who can afford it or are willing to put significant time into fundraising so we don't underwrite anything other than leader training.

That's my point. From the comments on this board, its clear we were all raised that way. I was free range. I roamed the neighborhood and local woods with a large pod of kids. We had drama, crises, fights, danger, you name it. We worked it out among ourselves. No parent involved. No parent even knew unless someone squawked. We learned how to interact with each other. We had bigger families and learned how to handle sibling relationships and responsibilities. Kids are not growing up with those opportunities and skills anymore and that's why I think it might be useful to look at whether scouts needs to look at ways to teach those skills. The current patrol method kind of assumes kids come to us already having some of those skills but from what I've seen, they do not. Simply throwing them into the fire or the deep end of the pool without any kind of road map and hoping they figure it out is possibly one reason why we lose so many 10 and 11 year olds. It might be worth looking at.

This is a very interesting discussion. The patrol method is integral to scouting but you almost wonder how it can possibly work in today's environment. David CO mentions the trend towards individualism in education. I agree. And that is exactly why many scouts, and even more importantly their parents, have an issue with peer leadership. Kids today are not taught to work in a team or in a subordinate position to anyone else, they are taught and raised to do what they want and what works for them. Tahawk mentioned trauma. The trauma I'm talking about is when you've got a room full of kids taught that their individual rights, opinions and interests are what are most important and not anyone else's. The loudest rule the room; the more laid back hang back in misery and quit. We also have Den Chiefs and Troop Guides who are supposed to teach and manage this process. However, these scouts are generally not promoted to these roles because of any particular talent or training. They are in them because they need to fill a POL. They are often ill equipped to handle a diverse group of kids. Troops that have great adult leadership will instinctively know how to deal with this. Other Troops will just recite the mantra that it's scout led and ignore it. Yet others, without training or any kind of guidance on how to deal with these situations, will hover in and run the troop for them. These are all reasons why I think having some kind of step by step process spelled out for youth leadership might be a good idea.

I agree with you. I think difficulty in navigating the patrol method could be a possible reason why so many kids leave scouting within a year or two of crossing over. There is no road map on how to do it and most of the recent crossovers I've seen have been traumatic. The patrol method is based on the idea that scouts come into the program with some basic skills. However, it's pretty accepted that today's kids do not have the opportunities to develop the same kinds of interpersonal skills that are so necessary for the patrol method to work. My school district, for example, no longer assigns group projects because kids cannot handle conflict resolution and consensus building. Most kids today, and more importantly their parents, also do not accept peer leadership and yet it's a cornerstone of the patrol method. Troops that have really excellent adult leadership who can model these behaviors and monitor appropriately from afar can do well with it but not every unit has those skills. So I think looking at whether this a program area that could be given more structure might be really useful.

This explodes the idea that the outdoors going public, scouts included, can rely on limited, high impact, marquee destinations like premiere National Parks. There are too many of us trying to crowd into the same spaces. Scouting, as an outdoors oriented organization, could do a world of good in trying to leverage every tool available to keep local green spaces available to scouts as well as to the general public. Local unit, district, and council campgrounds and reserves; municipal and county parks. I so wish scouting would become advocates for keeping camp grounds and open spaces viable and available to all for all the things we love to do in scouting as well as to keep America's youth in general interested in the outdoor lifestyle.

I don't think it's a badge of honor if your program ultimately does not appeal to the 75% of the youth you are lucky enough to sign up in the first place. We need to be able to retain more kids and recruit more among those youth we missed at the cub level. I don't think the problem, as your comments suggest, is that scouts is too hard or too elite for modern day scouts to cope. I think the real problem is that the program has been shaped too much by national marketing and corporate interests and we've lost our focus on the youth engagement that makes it fun as well as the character aspects that help us 'grow' better kids.

Don't spray stainless steel items with bleach or they will rust.

Whoa. I think you misinterpreted what I said. There is no issue in my mind with having LDS Chartering Organizations and units. LDS units, as any other religious or community contact, should be completely welcome in scouting, and I have often said I hope many of them come back in time. The issue is how the core scouting program was adapted over the years to fit specific LDS needs. The program, with perhaps minor tweaks to fit local circumstances, should be largely the same for all. I disagree about the structure. I have my own theories about why the Catholic Church and Scouting have both been particularly vulnerable to infiltration and then enabling of child predators. The franchise like structure of both often leaves no one really in charge and does not foster communication or collaboration. Both organizations are bureaucratic, hierarchal, insular, and prone to allowing their most local manifestations to operate in a silo that can become almost a personal fiefdom for a few individuals. Problems result. Most other youth organizations are not run this way. "When children choose" is perhaps your key comment and one that I appreciate most. I think that's what we need to focus on, and not on what parents will choose. In another post, I talked about how many scouts we lose within the first year or two after crossover. Most love cubs, but the focus on Eagle and aggressive advancement, that appeals greatly to parents, and the weakening focus on outdoor adventures, at least in my opinion, is why we are not appealing as much to children. I hope as we go through this process that BSA does focus on want children want.

Yes. The prime reason scouting is in such a dire place is because of deep rooted, long term internal problems. BSA should never have allowed a single religion to run a shadow program within a program the way it did with LDS. BSA should never have limited its managerial talent pool largely to people within the organization. BSA should never have shifted its focus to marketing and membership instead of remembering that it is a movement focused on service, citizenship and character first. And the out of doors. BSA should have never allowed its organizational components -- national, council, unit -- to become so distinct from each other so incapable of collaboration on a common mission. Stuff like that.