yknot

I think if scouting survives it will be a much smaller organization. I think it's clear the only kind of scouting that will continue will be more family oriented experiences/camping because that's what millennials and younger want and liability insurance and issues will likely demand. I think it's clear we are headed to mixed gender because that is what millennials and younger want. It also just doesn't make any sense to try to run this bureaucratic/volunteer heavy organization with different groups of volunteers just to preserve the illusion of segregated units when that's not how many are operating in reality. I think there are plenty of boys who would still be interested in scouting even under the above scenarios. It will be different, but kids that like to camp and get outdoors will still want to do that. High school age boys that are into sports still do sports even if their parents come along. Any parent of a teen or young man knows there are ways to be there but also be invisible. The kids whose parents are ASMs deal with it just fine. The kids whose mothers are ASMs deal with it just fine.

I support what you are doing. Anyone who was abused in scouting should have filed. You and others like you who were truly hurt deserve closure or resolution, or at least as much as is possible. There are no good answers here for either children who were hurt or for the organization.

The vast majority of claims -- 85% -- have been filed by men aged mid forties to 50s, so many of the perpetrators as well as potential corroborating witnesses are likely still alive. An additional small percentage of claims have been filed by people younger than mid forties, so perhaps 90% may be subject to to some kind of reasonable validation. I don't know the specifics of how this assessment will be conducted, but in other situations things such as case clustering in time and or location could be considered as somewhat corroborating. My question though has been whether or how any perpetrators identified will be held individually accountable through this process.

The most tragic legacy of abuse scandals in both the Catholic church and scouts is that truly decent adults who want to reach out and help kids in need now often feel that they can't. Not only can't. Shouldn't.

I think that's the crux of it. Scouting was/is unique among other youth activities because of the way it separates a handful of adults in charge of a group of children away from family and community often in remote locations. There were also very few -- maybe no other -- youth activities that routinely included sleepovers away from home. I was in a 4H club that did routinely camp out in either tents, cabins, campers, out in the open, or just under a shed row or in some shed somewhere. However, whatever instruction or interaction with leaders was done during the daylight hours. There was no sitting around a camp fire with them getting sign offs. Once the day's duties were done, we were with our mates and it would have been odd for a leader to have any involvement with us other than to make sure we weren't running amuck. Having also been involved in the Catholic church, the access to youth was indeed as limited as you said and priests or nuns had to create their own opportunities to have access to children outside of CCD or altar practice.

Not really. It's s completely different locker room scene now -- half the kids wear shorts to school in February anyway and just change shirts -- plus before it really wasn't comparable with situations in scouting. Even back when kids showered after gym or in practice, it was a 3 minute deal with next period teachers or parents waiting. Not off camping at a facility in the woods with random adults. Pedophiles are everywhere no doubt but there are some characteristic reasons why scouting was such a buffet for them.

It's just a bad situation all around. Between the bad publicity and the bankruptcy spiking up fees, it's been tough. As has been stated, most other youth programs reduced or refunded fees in the face of offering reduced programming. BSA has increased fees, and that is a tough sell. It's also been very hard to accommodate varied expectations. Some families are completely spooked by in person activities even when outdoors; others are angry that more activities aren't being offered. Committees and leaders have had to grapple with the fact that they and their COs are potentially liable if someone gets sick and they are not following the most conservative guidelines.

I'm not sure where you are or what you do but I have never had anyone from our district or council do anything to ever help resolve any kind of contentious, abusive, or illegal issue. Abusive parents incensed that advancements were perhaps not moving quickly enough to jet their scout to Eagle? Upheld by Council. Incompetent or abusive council employees or volunteers? Upheld by council. Problems with possible embezzlement and CO involvement? No response or involvement from Council. It is as if they do not exist except for FOS time and for the very overworked and underpaid admin assistant who cheerfully processed our paperwork as best she could. Of all the paid positions at council, guess who council laid off this summer? The admin assistant.

"How" is indeed the issue. Do we want to remake the country or try to add in new colors between the lines. I'm all in favor of a radical re-envisioning of the system until it gets to the point where we are tearing down what created this amazing experiment in the first place. Because if we go, there is nothing much else left that holds the line.

I don't think it's just pod size, I think it is recognizing this is a highly contagious, airborne virus that is affected by atmospheric conditions. It's better to have 25 kids at an activity wearing masks and standing 12 feet apart in crosswinds and sunlight conditions than it is having 4 kids 6 feet apart without masks downwind of each other. We need to start thinking that way.

National can enforce. It can revoke charters. National is management. If management finds it has no way to compel councils to follow its rules, it can legislate new ones. National has relied on a hands off philosophy when convenient when confronted with something it doesn't want to or doesn't know how to deal with. It has confused volunteers by not being honest or transparent about why it is making program changes. There has been almost no communication from the Key 3 to the corps of the organization throughout this latest crisis. That is not good leadership. Perhaps the leaders would be spending less hours dealing with the morass if they were more communicative about their challenges. The thing I fear most is a triumvirate of not very effective leaders in over their heads attempting to navigate this morass in complete opacity. Blindly supporting a national organization that has an extensive history of not getting much right is not the way BSA will survive.

I've been concerned because the documented youth transmission cases that have occurred in our area have mostly been during outdoor sport practices, not in class and in school. In practice, even if they are doing socially distanced drills and eschewing locker rooms, they are not wearing masks. This virus does not like heat, humidity or sunlight, so as winter temps cool and become dryer. wear your masks and forget about 6 feet social distance stay 12 feet away even in open air.

I'm sorry to hear that you experienced this first hand and hope you are fully recovered soon. I know. Many people do not take this seriously. Be well.

A lot of our discussion on this thread and elsewhere on this forum is on what we all think should or should not happen with scouting. A common comment is that today's kids "need" scouting. However much many people here may believe that, I'm not sure that that is a clarion call to youth. I think we need to find out what kids and their families want or need from an organization like scouting. I wish we had some real, non BSA (meaning objective) data on why kids join, don't join, or leave. I know we all try to get information and feedback out of scouts whether in BORs or in trying to recruit around town but it's not enough. I also think when people know you are involved in scouting they don't always tell the truth because they don't want to offend you. I know I often hear one thing when I ask a kid or a parent why they are dropping out or not joining, but my sons often hear something else when they talk amongst themselves.

Those are exactly the kinds of questions BSA needs to be asking and researching. I would say 4H has survived because it hasn't been afraid to change and because it has remained relevant to an evolving youth market. It's much more elastic. You can say the same of youth sports and other youth organizations. BSA is pretty moribund.

I think this is an area worthy of discussion regarding how it may impact scouting going forward. Extended adolescence is an issue. Youth do seem less able to handle certain responsibility markers that prior generations were more adept with. However, youth today have greater and different pressures than older generations did. Just watching a 14 year old trying to navigate the virtual learning environment has been mind boggling for me. Can I depend on him to load the shotgun, hike 10 miles in snow, and bring back dinner? No. He'd be crying. Can I depend on him to figure out how to jury rig a hotspot when the internet goes down so he can still make class and I can work and bring home dinner? Yes. Different life skills, but just as responsible.

Fascinating. One adult Eagle's story from 1959, much later than 1948: ... "Gallagher started as a Tenderfoot at the age of 38." Perhaps this was regional? If this would encourage greater adult volunteer involvement,, support, and commitment, maybe it's not as crazy as it looks. It could have a special designation, such as Silver Eagle Scout. Again, I am just thinking in terms of what would help scouting survive, not what it means in a program sense. And here's where the contradiction comes into play for me: I don't agree at all with the way that the Eagle marquee has become monetized and marketed by BSA. I hate it, and I don't think it should be the point of scouting. However, it may be one of the few valuable assets a post bankruptcy BSA has left to help it rebuild.

I guess I'm not looking at this in a program/citizenship sense but in a marketing/future survivability sense. I also know I sometimes contradict myself when I do this. I continually point to other youth organizations that seem to be doing a better job of surviving than BSA is despite having the common struggle of having to engage with fewer and busier kids and families. One of the things that many of these organizations do is find ways to keep youth involved as long as possible and beyond into adulthood. The closest BSA seems to have is FOS and that is a straight out money ask. I think somewhere in here is an opportunity to do more -- just not sure what.

Just to try and circle this interesting discussion about scout membership age limits back to a historical context, I did find out that up until 1948 adults were able to earn Eagle Scout and up until 1972 Explorers could earn Eagle until they were 21. It is also interesting that in a handful of states the age of majority is not 18 but older. I wonder if anyone has any historical information on this. I can see the problems that YPT today has created with having older youth interacting with younger youth even if that took place within some kind of new structure. However, if scouting wants to keep scouting in the lives of people post the age of 18, it might want to take on the challenge at looking at ways to keep older teens, young adults, and adults feel more connected to the organization. For starters, looking at a way to allow high school seniors active in the organization even if they turn 18 before graduating. Many youth organizations have this kind of mechanism. In a way BSA already allows it because it allows a 3 month window for the Eagle BOR.

Curious -- what is the reason for that? Church youth groups around here frequently allow kids up to 20.

Membership age should be extended to calendar year 21. Some youth organizations use 21 as the cut off, especially if it's something extracurricular, so that they can continue through college. There is no sensible reason I can see for scouts to cut off at 18. At the very least, scouts ought to extend it to calendar year 18 to make it easier for high school seniors to stay engaged in a peer activity through the end of their senior year because a lot of them turn 18 before their year is out. Would seem to be a simple and common sense way to increase membership.

The vast majority of people who have filed claims are in their 40s to 50s and some younger. That means many if not most perpetrators are likely still alive today. It's not clear to me either how they will be held accountable as part of this bankruptcy process but I hope that's part of it.

BSA is in this situation because of BSA. I agree BSA is not in a position to take the offensive but it could at least defend itself-- meaning the units and those still laboring in them. We have had months of silent and absent leadership at the top that has not even responded to the most egregious of claims. What's been leaked from the Churchill Project clearly shows there is no hope of an innovative restructuring, it's just business as usual. There's been no communication down to the unit level as we've proceeded through this mess. This is not normal for a viable organization. Even the most Cracker Jack of companies attempts to communicate with its people in the field through a crisis.

You are like in the 1980s. I don't even know where to begin with you lol.

I don't know what to say to anyone else. I came here to this forum a few years ago because I was worried, but this isn't the venue to fix anything, only to share in the best of times and to vent in the worst. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any venue for folks at the unit level to try and fix anything. Many will tell you to just focus on delivering a great program at the unit level, and that's what I tried to help do. But then I kept having this feeling that at least a part of the apple we were trying to deliver was rotten. I can't square myself with trying to deliver a partly rotten apple to anyone, so I pulled my youngest scout out this summer. I'm on the charter until December and I've continued to try to help, but after that, I am done. I wish everyone well.