yknot

Cool. My father raised homing pigeons. They were part of the Signal Corps up until WWII and even after. They were actually very effective. One, Cher Ami, was a decorated war veteran of WWI. Use of homing pigeons would have seemed as commonplace to boys as cavalry was in the beginning of the 20th century. Miniaturized drones are a modern day variation of that program. We allow cell phones but they are supposed to be used only for emergencies or program, like taking pictures of tracks. They've kind of become a version of the Swiss army knife.

It's good to acknowledge this can be tough on the scouts, especially the SPL. We had a nonfunctional SM for three years who used to brag the troop was boy led, but it was because he did nothing. He had some kind of a passive aggressive personality disorder that made him impossible for adults to work with, let alone kids. For two of his years we had good SPLs who did their best to run the troop. It was hard for them though to up manage an adult they were supposed to respect and hard because they were high school kids in AP courses, in the middle of college searches, involved in other activities. We talk a lot about adult burn out but I haven't seen many places where we talk about scout burn out. Some kids put little into their PORs but some take it seriously and the volunteer roles for kids can be just as consuming and burdensome for the scouts as they can be for adults.

It is not just judgement it is understanding risk exposure. If BSA outlines a policy and you deviate from it, you increase your risk of being held personally liable if something happens. That's why all those annoying rules are there -- BSA is trying to avoid risk. All of us at one time or another have likely bent a rule that didn't seem to make any sense. Just make sure you understand that you are not simply being a rebel and following the "old" ways but that you are possibly exposing yourself to enhanced liability.

Of course not. But it's better than nothing. Gotta start looking at how to do better at something rather than doing better at nothing.

Seems like this could be solved by having the SM and ASMs invite DLs on an annual adult one night camp out for Intro to Troop fun. You don't need WB for that or First Class either. Rather than a whole weekend of training, a late Sat afternoon, dinner, and early Sunday a.m. scoot in time for church would work for a lot of schedules especially if local.

Um, anyone who registers a scout in our unit has to also sign up for a volunteer role? We will not accept their registration unless they sign up for something. It also encourages prompt delivery of paperwork because the easiest jobs go first.

No, they are not right. Facebook is not where you need to be. It's a bully pulpit for bullies. Where exactly are you? Everyone is depressed and not functioning optimally during Covid. You need to take a breath and get some perspective. I know you are in Texas. Who on this forum is in Texas? Please reach out to this guy.

Stop it. Stop it right now. I've read your posts before and had no idea you had such confidence issues. You don't come off that way in print. Get out of that Troop and find better people to hang with. You have a tremendous amount to offer. You also need to learn how to leave this negativity behind for the sake of your own kid. You are his/her leader. Find someplace where you can grow in comfort and be a good example for them.

Maybe we're confusing things here. Units team up, all or in part, for multiple types of things from HA blended crews to provisional camping to getting together to run a first aid merit badge session or for a cook off or service project. Staging a shadow council camp might be a different issue.

I don't think that's a good idea. Pre Covid we sometimes did things with other units but not now. Stay in your pod.

Yes. Our Troop insists on meeting weekly even though the meetings are deadly dull and scouts don't want to go to them. Plus they are sitting there being bored while facing hours of homework when they get home, especially the older high school scouts who are generally in AP courses, etc. If Covid has taught us something it's that you don't need to meet much to get activities organized. The activity should indeed be the focus.

I'm not arguing your legal acuity, which is obviously expert and well informed, or the logic of most of what you say. But I think this is also one of those situations where the morality gets lost and for an organization that is basically built around a moral code, this is not going to be a good look when the dust settles. I also think to some degree things are already in panic mode, at least among those organizations sophisticated enough to be monitoring the proceedings.

I totally get the legal problem but what I'm talking about is the moral issue. We're supposed to be an organization that espouses morals. If BSA still has some pieces left at the end of this but community organizations around the country that chartered units are destroyed, what reputation do we have left? What will we be? The abuse scandals have been awful, but scouting also started to die when it began listening to lawyers and corporate types more interested in marketing instead of following it's own scout law. In my opinion.

Does BSA have any moral duty to inform their COs? I feel like this is setting up to be another ineligible volunteers type situation. The BSA had information it didn't share and people got hurt. I know in a legal and financial sense there is a conflict of interest in doing so, but if scouts is going to scout like, it seems like the moral imperative should be to globally advise COs to protect themselves. The silence from BSA regarding any communication to COs throughout this has been deafening. It looks like the impact on BSA is potentially going to be catastrophic. What is the point in creating additional ill will by taking COs down with it.

American Legion Halls, Elks, Rotary, Lions, Masons, Fire Departments, businesses, community and rec centers, athletic clubs, private schools... Some of these groups have national leadership that can mobilize for their individual churches, chapters, etc., such as the major church groups are doing. Some are not as organized, like random Volunteer Fire Departments, businesses and private schools. What happens to these smaller individual organizations who probably have no idea what's going on and don't know to file a claim?

I agree. There is so much ill will that could be created here among so many community groups that I don't see how scouting in any form could withstand it. Scouts is in another impossible situation but the fact that COs have had, as far as I know, practically no direct communication from National on this as it developed has probably been alarming to the ones who have been paying attention. What will happen to the ones who aren't paying attention and don't file a claim and wind up suffering losses? The Methodist church makes out OK but the AME church or VFW down the street does not? Whose moral responsibility is it to tell them to file by Nov. 16?

Youth all over are having a hard time with this and are coping with it differently. Be aware some kids are not so much afraid of getting it themselves but may be living with high risk adults and are very fearful of bringing anything home to them. They may not want to verbalize that they are freaked out over losing mom or dad, especially if they are teens. The cold might be more of a convenient excuse in that case. Many kids are also totally done with zoom. Maybe encourage them to think less 'meet' and more is there anything safe and fun they can do as an outdoor activity at least for bonding where they'd be moving around and staying warmer? Social distance hike or outdoor service project like a trail clearing...

At this point, from an objective viewpoint, it seems like every CO group ought to be doing the same thing out of sense of self preservation -- American Legions, Volunteer Fire Departments, VFWs, private schools. I don't know if others were anticipating this but it seems like a mess on top of a mess to me.

I've received more information and I see why you said that. I just realized it will put some of us in a conflict of interest situation.

Just received a statement from state annual conference of United Methodist Church regarding child sex abuse. It noted that the BSA has filed for bankruptcy, "which limits their exposure to lawsuits and may increase the church's exposure." It further adds that the conference leadership in consult with its lawyers as well as conferences around the country is taking "appropriate steps". It additionally notes that the UMC has more scouting programs in its buildings than any other denomination. I guess that's maybe true after the LDS departure. It seems a very measured statement but still concerning. I haven't yet seen anything like this through Catholic or Lutheran church ties. Has anyone else seen similar statements from them or other religious denominations?

I just saw this article: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-22/boy-scouts-sexual-abuse-claims-bankruptcy Not much new but speculation in this article ups the potential payout to 3 billion -- double the 1.4 billion estimate I've seen elsewhere.

Very sweet essay. Thanks for sharing. We're all in it for our kids but many of us are also in it because someone else was also good to us along the way and we want to share and repay it. Or, we want to leave the world a better place because we have a passion for something or because we believe in something we think is bigger than ourselves. Despite our vastly different perspectives and experiences and our adamant beliefs, which sometimes create some very heated discussions, I think we can all share in our grief that scouting is in trouble and none of us really knows how to save it.

I also check out sometimes. I come here for hope but often leave depressed. However, just to share some uplifting info I just discovered: We all know about Bear Grylls but famous U.K. scouts also include John Lennon, Paul McCartney, David Beckham, David Bowie, Richard Branson, Tony Blair, Keith Richards (!!!!) and, my favorite, Sir David Attenborough. You have to laugh. Could you imagine having a young Keith Richards in your Pack or Troop?

Ugh. None that doesn't involve adult intervention, which is why I asked about guard rails when trying to be youth led. To some degree I think the traditional scout leadership system rewards the more articulate, self motivated, Type A scouts. The standard answer you will often get is more adult training in the patrol method is needed in order to properly train SPLs and Troop Guides, but in my neck of the woods there are so many disconnects in that process that the scouts are simply gone. If you are seeing it I do think it's worth a discussion with your SM to try and get him to have a discussion with the SPL and follow that whole chain of command back down. Another option is to have a side bar discussion with some of the Type B scouts about how they can try to be more assertive. Maybe others here have better advice. I did recommend a book here in another thread that really opened my eyes to the problems these more reserved scouts face and about how their leadership value is often completely overlooked, particularly in scouting: Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain.

I think the focus on false metrics is such an apt phrase. I think it's part of why scouting has lost the sense of fun for some scouts. I return to youth led however. I myself struggle with what the guard rails are. What is an acceptable mistake? If you don't store or cook your meat properly and make everyone sick, that is certainly a lesson learned but then that camp out has not been fun. A patrol where the Type A personalities constantly over shout the Type B personalities until the Type B's eventually leave is maybe a lesson learned for the Type A's -- be overbearing enough and you'll eventually get your way -- but then we've lost some more reserved scouts who might have actually been the more scout like scouts and better leaders. In my reality, I don't see adults dealing well with this. They either overcompensate and take it all over or they are gleefully and completely hands off. In both case, scouting is not fun for our target audience, the scouts and in my neck of the woods I see a lot of dismaying attrition. I think this is why this comment of "scouting is supposed to be fun" keeps resurfacing. It makes me think that scouting boils down more to alchemy more than training: If you get the right mix of gifted leaders and impressive scouts, it will work beautifully. If you don't have that, scouting can be very difficult to deliver.