yknot

I know. I'd like a better sense myself of what exactly happened but I think the numbers -- and the stories that each new report recounts -- are telling the tale to a large degree. It's tragic. BSA is story of both dark and bright angels it seems.

I understand where you are coming from but you have to turn around and look at what you are saying. Replace "slavery" or "segregation" with "pedophilia" and I think you'll see what I mean. There is no way to examine this retroactively with any view to trying to put what happened in any kind of context no matter how valid. Trying to engage in any kind of moral relativism can only backfire. Scouting is up against a wall. While the leadership has missed a lot of opportunities to communicate where I think they could have tried to defend themselves or clarify, there are too many things they simply cannot try to explain or defend without making things worse in both a legal and public relations sense. The other issue is that while BSA may have done more than anyone else, however flawed, to prevent abuse, it was still slow to recognize it (they've been aware they were a pedophile magnet since the 1920s) and also failed to comprehend the unique circumstances in which it combined adults with youth, as did the Catholic church to their own great sorrow. Both the scouts and the church had warning bells many decades before they took effective steps. In my opinion it's because the organizational structures and, in a way, cultures, of the two organizations had similar flaws. Both allowed potentially predatory adults unparalleled access to children; both put forward adult leaders -- scoutmasters and priests -- as persons above parental scrutiny and reproach; both created inadequately supervised franchise- like entities, whether COs/units or parishes, where predators could operate; both put youth in remote and opaque environments with adults, whether on camp outs or for altar duty. I'm really sad about what's happening. It's not panic on my part, just a dwindling of hope. A few things have struck me the past couple weeks apart from the tsunami of claims. One has been the comments by some of the attorneys that this will forever change the way youth organizations are run in this country. Perhaps the good that will come out of this tragedy is that our country's attention will be focused on the need to better protect children and will figure out a way to do it. Another was what happened last week with the last minute scramble by COs to file proof of claims. The CO structure in BSA is dysfunctional because they have long been at cross purposes with each other and that development throws that fact into bas relief. Another point is that I agree with MattR that scouting is obviously going to cease to exist as we know it, but whatever remains of it is still good. Some version of scouting is better than no scouting. We'll figure something out.

His son Beau Biden prosecuted one of the most egregious cases of pedophilia in Delaware and there is a foundation in his son's name -- The Beau Biden Foundation -- dedicated to the protection of children. Who knows how Biden's own scout experiences will square against honoring the legacy of his dead son and what was apparently his life's interest.

An article posted above states that about 85% of the claimants are between the ages of 45 to 52, so if true that would put the bulk of the claims in a time period ranging from about1974 at the low end to 1993. Whether the accuser is 8, 93, or somewhere in between, I assume some standard of credibility has to be met. More recent cases where corroborating witnesses or accused perpetrators may still be alive will be easier to assess, but even older cases could have some kind of substantiation that would validate them. If a cluster of previously unreported cases develops around a specific unit, campground, or event during a specific period, that would be indicative that a predator was at work no matter how long ago it was.

Parents often are the abusers but the more eyes around the better. In today's environment, if a Scoutmaster said he preferred that non ASM parents didn't attend a camp out, most parents wouldn't view that well. A good YPT program has always been essential for BSA because of what it does with kids. My point is that to pat ourselves on the back for it overmuch is like praising a lifeguard for having lifeguard training. And one small point when comparing BSA with sports or other school activities: kids involved in such activities today are rarely out of the view of a security camera. Cameras are on buses, weight rooms, the school campus, playing fields, etc. There are almost always extra eyes on them. That's not the case, though, in scouts.

That is all true but you also have to look at why YPT is so necessary. I have read many comments on this board about scouters who discourage parents from attending camp outs because they feel that they get in the way of the patrol method, etc. There is no other youth organization that repeatedly has adult leaders take relatively small groups of kids to remote places for hikes or overnight camping activities. There is some of that in sports as kids get older, but it's not common. Most youth in travel sports travel and stay with their families, not coaches. Most youth sports activities are conducted in an open field or gym with parents all around. Dug outs and sidelines are in full view. Other team's coaches, umpires, facility managers are generally in view. I really don't worry at all about one coach running a game or a practice on an open field with a dozen or so kids; I do worry about two adults takings kids on a 5 hour hike or camp out. BSA's YPT program is the most comprehensive, but it should have been long ago because the nature of the activities.

You are absolutely correct. We need objective, independent data in order to figure out effective ways forward and we are not getting it. There's enough publicly available research out there conducted by other youth organizations on millennial and other trends to know we are completely and frustratingly missing the mark. BSA doesn't seem to be paying attention to any of it.

The worst part to me is that this is what National has come up with at a time when the organization really needs some strategic, innovative re-structuring based on independent outside market research. Tinkering with territories, increasing fees, and expecting that membership and recruitment quotas will assure scouting's future is just more of the same thinking that has gotten us where we are. BSA is staring its own demise in the face. If it doesn't understand how much it needs to change its way of doing business now, it likely never will. How can you meet quotas without BSA giving councils, districts, and units any tools or knowing what would work for more diverse families?

The explanation I got was that it is simply a placeholder claim. It's like saying to the court that if x, y, and z happen and I am potentially liable due to the loss of your (BSA) promised protection, I may have claims of unknown amounts depending on what happens. Lawyers can correct me if wrong.

Frankly, I think the ACA ought to be looking at scout camps as a model for how camps can run with a minimum amount of risk. I was very skeptical and concerned in the spring and through the summer, but unless I've missed something there were no major outbreaks at scout camps where scouts tented solo. Granted, the season was very limited due to truncated camp sessions and it seemed like at least a 50% closure rate, but I would really like to see a post mortem. The camps that had problems -- and there were some major ones -- were mostly non scout that housed multiple campers in fixed structures like cabins. Also, in the aftermath of the vaccine announcement, there has been a lot of cautionary data about how a real return to normal is still years away. The time it will take everyone who wants a vaccine to get one will take time, but there is also the issue regarding children as noted above as well as that so far we have no duration of immunity data, either for antibodies produced by natural infection, residual immunity provided through other aspects of the immune system, or immunity provided by a vaccine. Preliminary research has produced varied estimates. One hopes it's for years, but it could be short term and that would mean a regular revaccination schedule.

What this will do is encourage districts and councils to overlook dysfunctional COs and units in favor of chasing quotas. Same old story, different day. Additionally, most of the difficulties with recruiting more diverse units and scouts are social and economic and councils, districts, and units are ill equipped to overcome those without a lot of support.

I am slumped next to you staring into the campfire...

LOL. No, they used Lassie too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Fj-mf9M-E

Cool. My father raised homing pigeons. They were part of the Signal Corps up until WWII and even after. They were actually very effective. One, Cher Ami, was a decorated war veteran of WWI. Use of homing pigeons would have seemed as commonplace to boys as cavalry was in the beginning of the 20th century. Miniaturized drones are a modern day variation of that program. We allow cell phones but they are supposed to be used only for emergencies or program, like taking pictures of tracks. They've kind of become a version of the Swiss army knife.

It's good to acknowledge this can be tough on the scouts, especially the SPL. We had a nonfunctional SM for three years who used to brag the troop was boy led, but it was because he did nothing. He had some kind of a passive aggressive personality disorder that made him impossible for adults to work with, let alone kids. For two of his years we had good SPLs who did their best to run the troop. It was hard for them though to up manage an adult they were supposed to respect and hard because they were high school kids in AP courses, in the middle of college searches, involved in other activities. We talk a lot about adult burn out but I haven't seen many places where we talk about scout burn out. Some kids put little into their PORs but some take it seriously and the volunteer roles for kids can be just as consuming and burdensome for the scouts as they can be for adults.

It is not just judgement it is understanding risk exposure. If BSA outlines a policy and you deviate from it, you increase your risk of being held personally liable if something happens. That's why all those annoying rules are there -- BSA is trying to avoid risk. All of us at one time or another have likely bent a rule that didn't seem to make any sense. Just make sure you understand that you are not simply being a rebel and following the "old" ways but that you are possibly exposing yourself to enhanced liability.

Of course not. But it's better than nothing. Gotta start looking at how to do better at something rather than doing better at nothing.

Seems like this could be solved by having the SM and ASMs invite DLs on an annual adult one night camp out for Intro to Troop fun. You don't need WB for that or First Class either. Rather than a whole weekend of training, a late Sat afternoon, dinner, and early Sunday a.m. scoot in time for church would work for a lot of schedules especially if local.

Um, anyone who registers a scout in our unit has to also sign up for a volunteer role? We will not accept their registration unless they sign up for something. It also encourages prompt delivery of paperwork because the easiest jobs go first.

No, they are not right. Facebook is not where you need to be. It's a bully pulpit for bullies. Where exactly are you? Everyone is depressed and not functioning optimally during Covid. You need to take a breath and get some perspective. I know you are in Texas. Who on this forum is in Texas? Please reach out to this guy.

Stop it. Stop it right now. I've read your posts before and had no idea you had such confidence issues. You don't come off that way in print. Get out of that Troop and find better people to hang with. You have a tremendous amount to offer. You also need to learn how to leave this negativity behind for the sake of your own kid. You are his/her leader. Find someplace where you can grow in comfort and be a good example for them.

Maybe we're confusing things here. Units team up, all or in part, for multiple types of things from HA blended crews to provisional camping to getting together to run a first aid merit badge session or for a cook off or service project. Staging a shadow council camp might be a different issue.

I don't think that's a good idea. Pre Covid we sometimes did things with other units but not now. Stay in your pod.

Yes. Our Troop insists on meeting weekly even though the meetings are deadly dull and scouts don't want to go to them. Plus they are sitting there being bored while facing hours of homework when they get home, especially the older high school scouts who are generally in AP courses, etc. If Covid has taught us something it's that you don't need to meet much to get activities organized. The activity should indeed be the focus.

I'm not arguing your legal acuity, which is obviously expert and well informed, or the logic of most of what you say. But I think this is also one of those situations where the morality gets lost and for an organization that is basically built around a moral code, this is not going to be a good look when the dust settles. I also think to some degree things are already in panic mode, at least among those organizations sophisticated enough to be monitoring the proceedings.