Twocubdad

Too severe a consequence? Absolutely not. It's what's going to happen. Show up Sunday afternoon at summer camp without a health form and AT BEST you sit in the health lodge until your parents come take you to a local doc-in-a-box. Likely, you sad butt goes back home. This is national camp standards, not troop or council policy. Is a big part of the whole citizenship thing not responsibility and consequences? Or did I miss a memo?

Apparently I'm missing the point here. You returned their original in a plastic sleeve with a nice little note of instructions? Sounds to like you're creating overly high expectations. 'Round here, if you want a copy, make one youself before you turn the dang thing in. What does this look like, Kinkos? I've yet to encounter anyone -- doctor, lawyer or Indian Chief -- who gives a rip about original vs. copy. Summer camp doesn't care. Never seen an ER care. I certainly don't care. So give them a copy of your copy and tell them to go pound sand.

You could not have handled it better.

Daddy always told me to never buy the first model year of anything. I've been to three jamborees - one as a kid in '73, one as a staffer (world), one as a SM ('10). I had fun as a kid, but recall much memorable other than simply camping with my troop for two weeks. It was cool to see Bob Hope and the long line of 100,000 red berets marching to the arena was really neat. World Jamboree was probably the highlight of my Scouting career, youth and adult. AP Hill two years ago was a lot of work. By this time, there just wasn't much I had not seen, the crowd were just annoying and the whole site too dang big and spread out. I'm hopeful that The Summit will fix a lot of the structural problems AP Hill had, namely size and distances. The program is much more like WJ and I think will be an improvement. And this is just my pre-conceived negative impression, but I would anticipate Woodstockesque conditions (reports of inappropriatly-clad Venturers reinforces that -- although those rumors may be part of a genius marketing plan to attract more attendees.) I don't think BSA could have done any worse a job of promoting Jamboree. I had an opportunity to go on staff, but everything which came out of national pushed the notion that staffing was being cut drastically and there was a time when it was thought our program area would be eliminated entirely. I decided early on that since staff slots would be at a premium and I was fairly luke-warm about the whole thing, I'd let someone more enthusiastic have the space. Of course, now they're scrambling for help. And of course the repeated warnings to expect more "primative" conditions than what we were accustomed to at AP Hill didn't help. Which brought me back to Daddy's advice. 5-yr, I will say I think you son's concerns are ill founded. If he were talking about the 2005 jamboree, with the Presidential Death March, he would be correct. Of course that WAS at AP Hill with all the military resources. In the first place, I'll give the national health & safety guys credit for solving a lot of problems between '05 and '10 (although I think their obsession with weight is misfounded). I also think a lot of the stuff the military handled will be solved by the the new site. A lot of the military presence was related to security BECAUSE it was fairly accessible a military base and dealing with the enormous visitor traffic, which is supposed to be much more restricted.

I'm with Frank's earlier post that you contact the COR or IH regarding this bozo. Would seem to have anger management issues. His un-Scoutlike and disproportionate response was out of line. We've had similar conflicts where multiple packs sign up for the same location, usually due to store managers and their assistants over promising. Fortunately, we were able to handle it like Scouts. One of the problems I have with this, however, is the lack of involvement and guidance by the district. Here, anyway, the district absolutely refused to get involved with trying to solve such issues. Their thinking is they would rather have units selling aggressively and bumping into each other than putting forth any sort of effort to manage sales locations. Heaven forbid it may mean they sell $1 less popcorn. But the cost they don't see is the cost when one Scout or family is pushed out of a location or even has to share space. Even when we've resolved the problems amicably pack-to-pack, I've still had parent ticked off and Scouts disappointed with the outcome who refuse to sell popcorn.

Several years ago I had a new Scout (who really didn't know any better) bring a wrist rocket on a campout. Another kid (who DID know better) had the entire new scout patrol cowering behind their patrol tub while he shot at them with acorns. Several had large welts one was bleeding from a shot he took to the shin. The idiot doing the shooting went home and got a month off from the troop. In retrospect, malicious injury like that was probably deserving of dismissal.

Ah, thank God! We're finally getting back to the original bumper sticker discussion.

Free, to a good home.

I've made the point with a SM's minute. I'll show up with a few Eagle badges and ask who wants one. Invariable, a handful of newer guys will jump at the opportunity. I give them the patches and ask, "so what do you think their worth?" They'll offer some guesses but I'll pull out a receipt and tell them what the patches cost at the Scout Shop. I let that soak in for a few seconds then I'll go over to one of the Eagles in the troop (all who know the routine), point to his Eagle badge and ask, "Billy, what is that Eagle badge worth to you?" "It's priceless," he says. I'll go over to one of the ASMs and tap his Eagle square knot. "Mr. Smith, how much is your Eagle badge worth?" "I wouldn't take a million bucks for it." Then another ASM. "Mr. Jones, how much is your Eagle worth?" "Everything I have. If it weren't for being an Eagle Scout, I wouldn't have survived Vietnam." I start walking around the circle, collecting the badges and close with, "Gentlemen, how much will your Eagle be worth? Will it be worth a few bucks from the Scout Shop, or will it be worth what you put into it?"

What sort of forewarning did troop #3 have? And if the answer is "not much", why not? With a full understanding of the situation, I would not have accepted the family. Never had a situation like this, but I've had a couple Scouts with know-it-all dads who started dictating terms before their boy joined. "Hope you find a troop which will agree to that" is my standard reply. And if the Council Advancement Committee doesn't see this as an issue where they need to be involved, I don't see where they should be involved in anything.

I agree folks should make their own choices about what they do with their money. But we're no longer talking about THEIR money, are we? It's BD's money, or the troop's or the council campership fund's money. And they're not making a choice. They're doing it all, partly on some else's nickel. BD -- I would have threatened the family with fraud charges if they didn't refund the money. Don't know if it would stick, but I'd have dang sure tried. What they're doing is stealing slowly. I'd make sure everyone in the unit knew it too. Disgusting.

"So, Mr. DE, am I to understand that part of your extensive, professional training in fundraising and motivating volunteers includes techniques in singling out individuals and holding them out for redicule and embarassment? How is that working for you."

Gotta say, I've never been good at or a fan of the Socratic thing. I'm more of a cut to the chase guy. I'd rather have a conversation than ask a bunch of questions and hope the kid comes to the right answers. Behavior wise, this doesn't seem like a big deal. More like being disruptive than really disrespectful. I was waiting for you to say the kid wound up questioning the ASM's lineage, or something like that. Kids don't forsee consequences. Shoot, most don't see consequences after the fact. I think you have to help them connect the dots between his behavior during the meeting. That the problems encountered on the campout related to his disruptions during the planning. You need to help him understand the point of view of the APL who was trying to get something done but couldn't because of a couple of knuckle heads. You don't mention how old these guys are, but I'm guessing fairly young. They sound like the typical maturity level of a 12 or 13 y.o. Old enough to have a need to exert their influence on the group but not mature enough to do that in a productive way. I would try to give them some concrete examples of how they can contribute positively to their patrol. We talk about this in terms of "small-L" leadership or leading by example or from the back of the group. (That compares to "big-L" leadership which related to your official position.) Talk to the boy about how he can be a leader in the patrol without being APL or PL. And the big picture there is reputation. Now having been SM long enough to see a few years of Scouts come into the troop at 11 and age out at 18, guys in the troop get the reputations they earn. Teenage boys have really long memories. If you get a reputation for being lazy, a PIA or a screw up, the other guys won't forget it. Guys learn early on who they can count on, who is reliable and who they want in their patrols. Sooner or later the rest of the guys will push him out of the nest. Maybe this means nothing to this kid. (Clearly, I'm applying assumptions to the situation based on other boys I know well.) So take this simply as an example. You've got to find an appeal which will mean something to him. Maybe his hot button is a carrot, maybe a stick, maybe some combination of the two. And there is a good chance you're not going to get through to him the first time. But as you get to know him over time you'll find an approach which works with him.

Nah. Not necessarily, tex. The way our district and council works, almost all MBCs are specific to the troop. Yeah, we play the game of registering the MBCs as district volunteers, but most only work for specific troops. And I'll tell you if one of our MBCs are letting the scouts fly by the won't be counseling for long.

Whoever said you've got to expect a certain level of noise and just talk over it is correct. This isn't Sunday morning worship, you're not going to get that level of quiet. Use a PA system to be heard over the din, if necessary, depending on the size of the group. Depending on the space, the parents yacking in the back can be a big problem. We met in a gym-size room so parents thought standing in the back was out of ear-shot. It's not. I like the idea of having the boys turn around and asking their parents to please be quiet and listen. Even with the Boy Scouts, in a much smaller room, the parents still think it's okay to talk during presentations. I've taught the Scouts that they have the ability to ask an adult to please stop talking or step outside. Being called down by a 14y.o. is pretty effective. Of course some are conducting important troop business, but still. I try to lead by example and whenever some asks me a question off-line I point to the door without speaking and lead them into a side room or outside for the conversations. One technique that has not been mentioned is the pacing of the meeting. Don't expect to have a wild participation song or a game then immediately go into a quiet reflection. Even worse is to have an agenda which is loud, quiet, loud, quiet, loud, quiet. The old adage to follow the campfire -- that is to start the meeting bright and cheery then fade to glowing embers -- is good. Even still, you've got to give the boys an opportunity to settle down. Do the game or song, then maybe a presentation which doesn't require total quiet then move into the reflection. But I'm cool with the airhorn too.

Actually that was 224, but I've had a similar experience. The key problem with the decisions from on high is the lack of respect -- no communication, no consultation, no input, no deliberation. Decisions made by secret committees because opening the process to view would be a mess. That's true. Giving everyone a voice and treating people like mature adults who contribute hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to an organization can be messy. Sounds like a lot of districts reap what the sow.

Listen. I served actively on our DC for about 8 years. They were more than happy to have someone do the scut work of running day camp, recruiting new chartered organizations, making 7:30am school presentation for Cub Roundup and, of course, writing nice FOS checks. The welcome mat was promptly yanked when I had the nerve to become a Scoutmaster. I apparently missed the clues that the Boy Scout program in our district is run flawlessly by the same 2 or 3 folks for nearly 30 years. The last thing they want is to hear from some upity Cubmaster-wannabe-Scoutmaster with new idea. I spent two years trying to work within that system until the issues started impacting my unit. So I quit. The district only runs two Boy Scout events (which were the source of the problems) so it wasn't hard for an active troop to make up two outings. And I can name five or six SMs with the same experience. All SMs with 10, 15 and 25 years experience who have given up on district events. Some of their troops still attend one or both district events, but none of the leaders actively help. Only about a quarter of the troops in the district participate in these districts anyway. In my experience and observation, the kind of people who would want to be involved at the district level are the very passionate Scouters who want to be involved and contribute. While only a clod doesn't understand there is a learning curve and a period of acceptance into any group, not many folks like these are going to clean latrines for decades waiting for a chance to make a contribution to a group. So you tell me what needs to change with a district to get more folks involved. (And by the way, I have made a standing offer to help plan and run a new district camporee when the powers-that-be decide it's time for something new or die off, which ever comes first.)

In our troop, the conversation with the CC would have ended with "good job, Ohana, keep up the good work" and a sincere handshake. The problem, Edad, is unless there was more to to conversation that Ohana related, he has no basis for determining if there is a problem and what it is, much less whether or not he is in the wrong. I would be curious to learn if there were any specifics mentioned. Is there a specific requirement they think he's adding? Is there some interpretation he is applying improperly? I'm with E732. Absent any concrete issues which can be considered and remedied, this is just a coward parent whining their son isn't being given a easy pass. But the real problem here isn't with the parent, rather with the CC. His response to the parent should have been, "let's get Mr. Ohana and your son involved and figure out what's going on." If they don't have the cajones to have a real conversation, the CC should then tell them there is nothing he can do if the parents are unwilling to help solve the problem. And who wants to bet the genesis of the problem was the parent asking the Scout why he hadn't finished the MB yet and the Scout responding he hadn't finished because Mr. Ohana isn't fair, he's too hard and being a meanie-weanie? Nah, a kid would never do that. At this point, Ohana, I'd send a note to the CC that absent a conversation on the matter between you and the Scout, there is nothing for you to act upon. Your standards are what they are and certainly won't be changed based on inspecific, anonymous complaints. As always, it is up to the troop to use you as a MBC or not, but if not you hope they will have the courtesy to let you know and not waste your time by leaving your name on the list.

So what it comes down to is you want to dictate to me what my cheerful service is. And here I thought one of the advantages of volunteer service was I got to decide what I volunteer to do.

We should be careful to remember we are patriotic organization not paramilitary.

I gotta chuckle. I'm volunteering a night a week, a weekend a month and a week a year -- at minimum -- but probably more like 15 or 20 hours a week to serve the 60 or so boys in my troop. But since we're a "strong" troop I'm somehow selfish for not contributing time and effort to the district? Yeah, right. Part of your assumption is that "strong" units are swimming in volunteers. I'll tell you many strong units are so because of the dedication and effort of a few volunteers. You want me at district committee meetings? The quickest way to do that is to recruit away my key volunteers. But my contribution to the meeting is probably not what you're looking for. On the other hand, if want to recruit some of the parents who don't contribute to the troop, have at it. Seriously, SP, if the district needs help, get out and recruit some fresh volunteers. Don't rely on the units. Earlier, someone mentioned the BSA model that district volunteers should be community leaders and business folks. Does that happen anywhere? I know of one guy on our district committee who fits that model. Districts nowadays seem to serve the primary function of fleecing the flock. A concrete example is our FOS goals. Of a total goal of well over $100k, our "community campaign" (i.e., businesses and other non-Scout folks) is under $5k. In other words, 95%+ of our FOS contributions come from the units. Where is the district adding value?

Hard to say how much is hype and how much they are really getting into the paramiliary stuff. I think the web site is trying hard to make it sound really military, but watching the kickstarter videos, it seems to me most of it is hype. If so, I'm cool with it, if it creates more excitement and interest for the boys. Our guys love wilderness survival stuff, but honestly it gets old. I always challenge the boys to come up with some new slant. A couple years a go we had two dads, both retired Marine aviators, helped run the campout like Survival, Evasion, Escape and Resistance training. At one point they had the boys in the back of a "Dodge Ram helicopter" coordinate the rescue of a downed pilot. It was way cool. The squad leader was on the radio with the pilot who had to give all the right code words for the helio to land. The boys jumped out and formed a security perimeter. The pilot had to give a last round of codes before he could approach the helio or the security detail would take him out. It was a blast. I kinda waited for a phone call after that one, but we were basically just playing army for the afternoon. I suppose if we had taught the Scouts how to resist being water boarded we may have caught some flack.

I'll admit to fantisizing about ramming cars with the wrong stickers! Political bumper stickers and buttons used to be free, now campaigns sell them. I remember giving out Nick Galifinakis buttons at 8 or 10 years old. The were fun because his name took up two buttons and I had to give folks one of each half. I'm not paying to put some jackass's name on my car. I do have to say the best bumper sticker I've seen was blue with the white block type and the logo in the "O" which said SERIOUSLY?

I've heard of merit badge mills, but a merit badge retail store is a new one! Any notice that Jen, Kristen and Edi together cover about 45 badges? Where is the local council advancement committee? Is this an approved MB university? Are the counselors all approved for all these badges?

Yes, actually. I had a really nice conversation with an acquaintance who has a son in kindergarten. She is very liberal, an atheist and is in strong disagreement with BSA's membership policies. We chatted for about an hour and both really enjoyed having a rational conversation with someone from the other side of the aisle. Of course she may not fit your description of "those types of people."