Twocubdad

Very good. What was that guy's name? Bob Rose? Ross? His show did the job of a half bottle of Sominex.

tgrimstead -- you should really include the color of the sky in your fantasy world. Since they have no relationship to reality, it would be an interesting detail. Again, you guys just make up imaginary stuff which you attribute to the equally imaginary boogeyman Scoutmasters. It fits your narrative and is easy to refute. Your guys don't work for political action committees, do you? Oh yeah, the Promise of Scouting is Adventure, Learning, Challenge and Responsibility.

I like Advantage Emblem. Reasonable and their art dept works wonders. Ask for Jenni Hommich.

So Beav and Twocubdad, So whats the advice here? Put road blocks in front of each and every scout to slow them down because of your preceded perception that they are not getting enough out of scouting? Hope you were wearing all the appropriate safety harness for that leap of logic. Richard B lurks here occasionally and may want to include that in the next round of safety regs. Most everyone who thinks a 12yo Eagle is just hunky-dorrie also wants to believe that those of who don't are a bunch of ham-fisted crumudgeons who enjoy torturing small animals, pulling the wings off flies and setting up roadblocks for Scouts who only want to advance to Eagle "at their own pace." Of course, Charmoc now adds that we are fools to go along with "Ask Andy's" Aug 1 blog calling us stupid and heartless, in so many words. The problem is the lack of vision and understanding of the depth and nuiance of the program. I'm not setting up roadblocks -- no minimum age or added time-in rank requirements -- just getting to know my Scouts and helping them -- and their parents! -- understand that the program is for the long haul, that the goal is for them to get the most out of their time in Scouting, not to get out as quickly as possible. We dont' put up road blocks, but we do show them the side roads, the scenic routes and the nice camping spots along the way. My job is to get the Scouts fully engaged in the program, not just working on advancement at a break-neck pace. And no, you're not going to convince me a 12yo is doing much more than advancement. I know there are exceptions, and maybe Skeptic's 12yo is one, but by and large, kids who blow through the ranks at a very young age are going to flame out. A kid who is so advancement driven to make Eagle by 12 is going to be that much more lost when that challenge and trail ends. As Beav alluded, advancement is one of the tool we use to keep Scouts engaged in the program. Completing Eagle at 12 or 13 removes that incentive for the Scout. Yeah, yeah, Hornaday, Venturing, Outdoor Awards, yadda, yadda, yadda, they ain't the same as Eagle. If those other awards are so great, do them BEFORE Eagle or at least concurrently. And finishing most of Eagle by 12, taking four years off and coming back to finish Eagle at 17 isn't much better. In the end, their Scouting careers are still only three years. No different that a kid who quits at 13. And if "your own pace" is so important, why not let the bored 9 year old start working on requirements. Or the 19 year old who just never got around to it? NINE YEAR OLD EAGLES -- ROCK ON!!! (I'm biting my tounge now -- we have to be careful what we joke about here. We don't need to give the "Advancement Team" any more stupid ideas than they already have.) We do boys a great disservice by allowing them to finish Eagle in two or three years -- whether its their first three years in the program or with a big donut hole in the middle. We are not giving them the best opportunity to fully experience Scouting. Oh, and Max, I love your farm analogy -- I'm absolutely stealing it. That will be a Scoutmaster's Minute next week.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Shouldn't the leaders be visibly marked as qualifying as first class level scouts somehow? They are. For SM/ASMs it is indicated by the "Trained" patch on their sleeve. T-2-1 skills are mostly what IOLS is about. I have heard many adults wish they had stuck with the program as a youth, but have never heard anyone express in participating as an adult.

So what's the point of this thread? To offer our anonymous congratulations to a Scout we don't know, who probably isn't reading this and wouldn't necessarily know the thread is about him if he were? But if this is part of our on-going discussion regarding advancement, then Beav's comments are perfectly acceptable and, frankly, spot on. (Personally, I assumed this was just a love fest for 12-y.o. Eagles and have stay out of it until now.) Sure, this kid is probably very intelligent and articulate. But he has gotten no more from the program than any other 12y.o. regardless of rank. The real benefits of Scouting are to be experienced, not checked off. Experience takes time. Is he an Eagle Scout? Sure. But no one can know what he has gained from being an Eagle for a few more years.

Papadaddy beat me to it! My grandfather was a Scoutmaster in the early '40s and we have records of him working on merit badges and ranks. I think he went as far as Star, which seems to be a popular cutoff. I think adults earning Eagle is a terrible idea. For one, you look at the requirements and tell me it's not something you couldn't do inside 18 months. Shoot, Skeptic has boys doing it that fast. Would that really be a challenge/accomplishment for an adult? On the other hand, Scouting better be fun/fulfilling for the adults or you're not going to have many adults around for long. I work with a great group of guys and we have a lot of fun together on campouts. Our troop adults camp and eat together. We enjoy each other's company but we also enjoy working with the boys as Scouters.

I've not done a one-to-one comparison, but reading the explanation from national, it doesn't seem to be any substantive changes to the content of the form -- just the addition of Spanish, some stuff for The Summit (which effects what percentage of members?) and makes part C scanner friendly. With no substantive changes, why is this mandatory? If I show up for summer camp with the old form, why should anyone care?

Does Boys' Life still include daffynitions in the joke section? I think we need our own for adult Scouters. Here's one: Feedback -- a meaningless process of allowing Scout volunteers to blow off steam by giving them the opportunity to comment on policy changes which are final. Syn: Input. Your turn!

New Boys' Life came today. Did you see Scouts In Action? SCOUT SAVES MOM BY STOPPING RUN-AWAY HORSES!

You folks familiar with church mice? Anonymous folks from a church who "adopt" college kids and send them cards and little things from home? For the first time, our troop has about five guys who have gone off to college this week. Thought it would be nice if the troop sent them a little care package in a week or two. Any idea what to sent? Thinking of "scouty" stuff, like jerky or a bag of trail mix. But nothing to overt, like the phone number of the local Scout College Reserve group. Ideas?

Yeah, I suppose being in construction I see this a bit differently. There is the ethical question and the practical question. Absolutely, the Scout should run down the list and try to dispose of the materials properly. He's done that. No one on the list wants them, which is, in part, what has me wondering what the material is, specifically. If it's $100 for neatly stacked, full-length composite decking materials, that could be useful for something else. On the other hand, if it's a few 2x4s, a 2x10 and a half, an opened box of nails and some galvanized bolts, it is highly probable that this stuff will collect dust somewhere for a while then get tossed. (This from a guy in the midst of a major clean-out of his shop.) Truth is, $100 of surplus building materials isn't much. Storage, transportation and time dealing with it can very quickly be more than $100. It's not that there is anything wrong with giving the material to the council camp, it's that unless the camp is very nearby, it's likely not worth the effort. Our camp is about 90 minutes away. That turns into a half-day to drive down and a back. I'm not making he trip for $100. And if you told the ranger "you can have it if you come get it" any one want to make bets on a camp ranger spending the time and gas to pick up $100? And have you ever seen the amount of donated crap typically stacked around the ranger's compound? Even our local Habitat Restore is picky about what they'll accept. Kudos to the Scout for being this conscientious. He's fulfilled his obligations to both the donor and the beneficiary. Now apply a little rational thought to the process as well. Just because the junk was donated to an Eagle project doesn't make it sacred. Junk is still junk.

Hmmmm..... close. I think it would need to be a VERY special case for the parent to call the MBC ex parte and give him a heads up. What is perfectly reasonable is for the parent to coach the Scout on how to make the call. Speak clearly and directly into the phone. Know what you're going to say before you call. Let the counselor know you'll be bringing a buddy. Write down the details like the time and directions. Then rehearse it with him. That is totally appropriate.

DON'T CALL THE COUNCIL. Unless they want to spend a Saturday trucking the material out to the Scout camp. For all we know, we could be talking about 5 tons of gravel. The mission of the BSA is to teach Scouts to make ethical decisions. Make one and move on.

Charmoc -- yeah, you're pretty much on target. But like anything else, if you are so inclined you can spin your description to make it a positive or negative depending on what make you feel good about yourself. Eagle mills are basically troops which focus on advancement and judge their success or failure on the number of Eagles, not the quality of the overall Scouting experience. The adults drive advancement by applying adult ideas of efficiency, productivity and planning to "knocking out those requirements." They then take great care to make sure every Scout advances "at his own pace." With apologies to Jeff Foxworthy, you know you may be in an Eagle Mill if... -- Weekly troop meetings include formal merit badge classes, in the manner of summer camp. -- Scouts earn merit badges in such classes without ever meeting individually with the counselor to complete the requirements one-on-one. -- "Discuss the following with your counselor...." generally means "Sit in a class while your counselor talks about...." -- Adults figure out how to "double up" on requirements and squeeze the maximum number of check-offs out of one activity. -- Requirements are parsed for the absolute minimal level of quality or effort required to complete them. -- The meals you cooked were absolutely unfit to eat and your patrol spent the weekend grazing on chips or leftovers from other patrols. But you "served as patrol cook" and got the sign-off anyway. -- Your very first troop meeting is spent doing Tenderfoot exercises so you can complete the physical fitness requirement in exactly 30 days, instead of getting ready for your first campout. -- Scouts are encouraged, even required, to take a full load of merit badges at summer camp. -- It's a "problem" if a Scout decides to drop a merit badge to simply hang out with their friends. -- A big deal is made of the Scouts who earn 6, 7, 8 or more merit badges at camp. -- Parents equate a lot of merit badges with getting their money's worth. -- You think it is crazy for a Scout to take a class for a merit badge he's already earned, just because he thinks it's fun. -- Scouts are given suggestions like, "take Personal Management now while you're 11 or 12. If you wait until your older and have a summer job, it's much more difficult." -- Scouts are encouraged to complete their 90-day logs for Personal Fitness, Personal Management and Family Life all at the same time. -- The logs are kept the by the troop and Scouts are reminded to update them at every troop meeting. -- The adults pore over TroopMaster reports looking for Scouts who aren't advancing or for opportunities to conduct more classes which will provide the most sign-offs for their efforts. -- You think the JTE requirements for every Scout to advance in any give year is a good idea. -- You've sent that rediculous "Ask Andy" column to everyone in the troop. -- You're reading any of this and thinking, "hey we outta try that!"

Unfortunately, there is a fairly good chance that she'll get some twit at council who says, "Oh sure, just have your den leader fill out the advancement report and bring it it. No one here really pays attention to where they earn the belt loops." Don't kick the can down the road. Tell her to pound sand. Call the council. Call your congressman. You're not going to sign the paperwork. I do, however, think the folks here have outlined some reasonable accommodation for Aquanaut. That you're reasonable where it's possible puts you in a better postion to take a stand with the other.

He's offered the materials to the supplier, beneficiary and troop. What more can he do? I'd say can put them in a dumpster with a clear conscious. At some point you have to figure the return on transporting and storing $100 worth of surplus.

MBC > Badge earned. Yeah, sell that to our council registrar then let's talk. You thing You think a picking up a blue card from the SM, having the MBC sign it and returning it the Adv. Chmn. is too bureaucratic? Look at what happens once the Scout turns it over! The AC gets the SM to sign the blue card -- again. He then enters the MB into ScoutNet and in our troop TroopMaster. He then prints a hard copy of the Advancement Report. Both the report and the blue card physically go to the council office where both are checked by the council registrar and date-stamped to verify they have been received by the council. Both pieces of the blue card (the MBC kept his third) and a copy of the report are given back who then purchases the actual merit badge. The AC files the report and the troop's third of the blue care -- apparently in perpetuity. He puts the Scout's part of the blue card and the actual badge in an envelope in puts that in the awards box at the Scout House. Next troop meeting, before the closing, the SPL gets all awards from the box and presents them to the Scouts. WHEW! And as it turns out, when there is a descrepancy between ScoutNet and a Scout's Eagle app (such as I am dealing with currently), the registrar can't just call and ask. We have to be able to produce STAMPED blue cards or (preferably and) advancement reports. What prevents us from submitting brand new, unstamped blue cards and saying "he just earned it" I don't know. I'm guessing it has to do with allocating blame -- the most important step in any bureaucratic process. So no, I'm not too distraught about asking the Scout to be responsible for getting a blue card, asking the MBC to sign it and returning it to the AC. And being in the middle of a fire fight over this B.S. I ABSOLUTELY recommend all my Scouts to get that notebook and keep up with all your blue cards. No it's not required, I won't "make" you do it, but I would sure rather work over a safety net. The notebook will make a great keepsake one day and may keep you from repeating a couple merit badges. Anyone wanting to streamline this system HAVE AT IT. But I suppose it would be fairly typical of BSA to jump in and "fix" the blue cards -- the one part of this system which works.

Clearly any counselor who would suggest to a parent that their Scout call to make an appointment is a pompus jackass who lives for these opportunities to call out and humiliate novice Scout parents. It is simply beyond the realm of possibility for a counselor to make such a request in a courteous way and politely explain the reason for the request to the parent.

How do you conduct two-deep phone call? Find another adult and put them on speaker phone? Silly.

I wonder what percentage of Scouts, leaders, parents or health providers read/write exclusively in Spanish?

Ask Andy -- the how-to guide for Eagle mills. I'm coming to the conclusion that the marketing/brand folks at national have taken over. To keep the cash flowing, BSA has to capitalize on it's best brand -- Eagle Scout. What good is having a great brand if only 5% of your customers buy it? Any good marketer knows one trick of building an exclusive brand is keeping the price stylishly high. So how to boost sales while remaining exclusive? Overtly cutting requirements would look bad and may damage the brand. Instead, you keep the price high, but give stuff away around the margins, free oil changes and service for life, roadside assistance, counting church or band as "participation" in Scouting, redefining the Scoutmaster's "authorization" for a merit badge to mean "you talked about it," having some hack blogger show you all the loop holes and the easiest way possible to make your "purchase". But what the heck, by 15 you've probably bought all the uniforms and books you're going to. Chances are, your parents will pay your registration for the next two years anyway, just because you're an Eagle. Here's another money maker -- start selling the Trail To Eagle framed shadow boxes with the badges and Eagle medal already installed. You can give them out at crossover and save a lot of time and trouble for folks who are interested in running a quality program.

Deep breath, blw. I think you're missing the point -- If you call a counselor to set up an appointment for you son, I hope you get a polite refusal and request to have your son make the call. On the other hand, if you call and say my son is a special needs kid and I need to give you some info before you meet with him OR I have some safety concerns about my son taking Shotgun Shooting OR I really question you scheduling your meeting with my son at Hooters, I'm confident you will get a very different response. There is no intent to withold ANYTHING from you. At the point of making the appointment there is nothing TO withhold. You are more than welcome to be your son's buddy and sit through the entire process, if you choose to do so.

SCOUT: "Hello, this Will. I'd like to make an appointment with you." MERIT BADGE COUNSLEOR: "Will who?" S: "Will Jones" MBC: "Sure. Which merit badge? I counsel several." S: "Camping" MBC: "Fine. I'm free most evenings but Tuesday. Saturday afternoon is good too." S: "Can you do it Sunday?" MBC: "I would prefer not. How about Monday at 7:00" S: "Let me check with my mom." S: "Monday's not good for her, but she can do it Tuesday night." MBC: "No, Tuesdays are out, how about Wednesday at 7:00?" S: "I'll ask." S: "Wednesday at 7:00 is good. But my mom wants to know if she has to stay." MBC: "Yes, unless you bring another Scout as a buddy." S: "Mom says she can wait, but she needs to be home by 8:00 for Dancing With The Stars." MBC: "No problem. We can always meet again if we run short. My address is....." S: "Okay, thanks" MBC: "See you Wednesday." Hours of texting Days of emails Three minutes on the phone Of course the phone conversation (and I suppose an email, too) would easily include some discussion about the merit badge itself and a little back-and-forth about the requirement and what the counselor wanted the Scout to bring with him. And don't think this is unrealistic. I've had these text exchanges with Scouts. Except after about the third round, I'll ask them to please call, that we need to have a coversation. My favorite text from a Scout was "Can I use you for a reference?" Of course my response was, "Who is this." I was really tempted to reply "NO", but figured the kid wouldn't figure out why. Kids don't get the context and appropriateness of various media. This is one of the sessions we alternate in and out of our troop JLT. We'll give groups of Scouts several messages to communicate then ask them to develop it for different media. We then ask the whole group to decide which medium is best. If the message is "Final plans for trip out west" text or twit is wholly inappropriate. Of course, print, email or in person won't work for "I'll be a few minutes late for the meeting." Beav, maybe you'd like to sit in on the training?

That's called leadership. Some have it, some don't.